Replacing Hogwart's Locomotive motor with large motor

I have the same problem with my original Polar Express. If you remember John we went into a lot of detail on the issue. The problem was the lack of real estate in the body structure. Not only that the gearing probably would have a problem handling any more torque then what is needed for a few cars at best and forget about any grade you may throw at them. I think the Hogwarts engine would be even more problematic.

It was really short sighted of Lionel to build any engine with such limited capabilities, but to sell twice the add on cars then what they could handle is just simply silly and a little sad considering how disappointed it made their loyal customers.

 What Lionel needs to do to redeem themselves in my eyes is to offer us an O-36 Polar Express engine with some guts built in, as well as a kick *** smoke unit.  Their new control system Lion Chief Plus with electro-coupler and sound will cause me to open my wallet in a heart beat.

 Then Lionel and I can be all Lovey dovey again.

I have the Polar Express with all those attributes you name, now I'm working on the Hogwart's locomotive.

The PE comes in a Series II version that's the same size, but has a full size motor.  Mine pulls eight (and probably more) cars easily.  I upgraded it to cruise, RS5, fan driven smoke, a Super-Chuffer, and LED lighting all around, including class lights, cab light, tender markers and reverse light. So, for the right price, (you don't want to know), you can have the PE with all the stuff you mention.

I simply want to do the same for my Hogwart's engine, but it hasn't been offered with the larger motor.  The internal gears are metal, and I'm sure it could do a lot better than it does with the anemic motor.  So, I'm looking for ideas on how to get some muscle into mine.

I remember you talking about that as well John. I think I'll wait until Lionel comes to their senses.

There are some small Pittman motors with rare earth magnets which would probably fit, and improve the performance of this loco.  The real challenge would be removing the worm gear from the original motor, and installing it onto the shaft of the new one.  That's one of the things I don't like about Lionel's "traditional" locos.  Some (but not all) of the RailKing steamers use a separable worm gear linked to the motor by a dogbone shaft, a better design that lends itself to upgrades.

I am not familiar with the setup on the Hogwarts but did replace a similar motor on a starter set 0-8-0 with an RS 385. Like Ted says the major hurdle is having to use the worm that is on the small motor. I removed it OK and then drilled it out for the larger RS385 shaft. I recall the mounting holes were the same size and location but material around the mount had to be cut back. I also had to machine some of the flywheel away to fit. That may or may not be an issue with your engine.

This ended up being one of those "30 minute jobs" that took half a day.

Pete

Lionel did the "Kinet Hall"  (Shakespeare) and another British loco with, I thought, the same body as the Hogwarts.  I had heard that the Kinet Hall had a better motor.  Perhaps there is a better motor available.

Bill

Nope, same as the Hogwart's motor.

John, is the worm gear you show above a press fitting? If so could  it be pulled and installed on the up grade motor with a little modification as Pete relates above?  If not removable is it offered as a separate sale item from Lionel?

I was thinking it may be possible to bore out the worm gear to accommodate the larger shaft of the new motor  you mentioned and lock onto the new shaft using a small amount of metal epoxy putty. 

Do you think that could work? 

I don't have the motor out, I'm in the "information gathering" stage now.  That's the picture from the Lionel site, I'll have to take a motor out of the locomotive to see if that's a pressed on gear or part of the motor.  I believe, just based on the picture, that it would be pressed on.  I'm going to have to measure to see what motor will fit in the space the motor currently occupies.  The good news is that for my upgrades, most of the electronics is in the tender, so space isn't an issue.  I might have to figure out something like a 90 degree gear to use a horizontal motor, or something equally tricky.   As long as I stick with the ERR Cruise Commander for control, I can dispense with the flywheel to help with vertical clearance.

I check the Lionel web site and the motor for the Polar express is the same assembly. Gear is part of the motor not offered a separate item. That tells me it has to be an epoxied part or a formed shaft. If it's a formed shaft that means it's a die-cast shaft, thus crap to work with. As for the fly wheel it looks pretty anemic anyway so I doubt if it would be much of a loss.

Considering your greater experience in the in the drive train side of the hobby I will lay back and let you do all the motor leg work. I'm very good at that! 

The gears on the other motors are usually pressed on, I'm expecting this one to be similar.  If I can get that gear onto a better motor, I think I can mod the chassis to line it up and work.  I'd like the flywheel, but I can live without one if the larger motor is too tall for the boiler.  Time will tell...

You can be assured all of the gears on the can motors are pressed on. Unlike some of the Pullmores with the worm machined into the armature shaft, the gears on the can motors are a much larger diameter than the motor bearing. The motor could not be assembled otherwise.

I use CA glue to hold the gear onto the larger motor. Its difficult to drill for a press fit as the size has to be precise and its only luck that a drill bit will be exactly the same or a half thou. smaller than the motor shaft. Tie some cotton string around the shaft next to the bearing to catch any CA that might try to creep into the bearing.

Pete

Uh oh... Johns asking for help.... the end is indeed near.......

Yep, the end is near.  

We're getting into an area where my experience is not as great as the electronic arena, and I don't have the proper tools I suspect.  I'm hoping I could pull the gear off the set motor and get it onto a larger motor for better power. 

I suspect that I'd be using something like the Loctite 380 Retaining Compound to secure it.  It is also a gap filler that will allow a bit of tolerance for the size of the drill (I hope).

LOCTITE® 680™ Retaining Compound High Strength/High Viscosity is a high strength, high viscosity room temperature curing adhesive used to join fitted cylindrical parts. It fixtures in 10 minutes and provides a shear strength of 4,000 psi. Capable of filling diametral gaps up to 0.015 in. (0.38 mm).

LOCTITE 680 allows relaxed machining tolerances, and replaces clamp rings, set screws, and snap rings. Gives best resistance to dynamic, axial and radial loads. Recommended for retaining shafts, gears, pulleys and similar cylindrical parts. NSF/ANSI 61 Certified. ABS Approved.

This should keep the gear where it needs to be if I can get the correct sized hole in it.

The later PE motor will not fit on the Hogwarts? I am thinking the one from the Lionchief set. What about the newer Lionchief Kingslet Hall set engine?

The latest PE Series II has a different frame for the new motor.  The Kingslet Hall set has the same little motor as the Hogwart's.  I am wondering if I could retrofit the PE Series II motor to the Hogwarts...

Hogwarts on the left, PE Series II on the right.  The worm does look similar, just have to see if they're really the same.  Then It's time for Mr. Dremel to make it fit!

Finding a motor with the same gear already mounted would be huge. One way to check if you have the height is use modeling clay. Soften up a bit and place it on top of the small motor then refit the shell. Remove the shell and measure how thick the clay is. They will give you an idea how much total height you have. I suspect you have a few RS 385s laying around to compare.

Pete

Plenty of motors.  I may have to take the motor out of my PE Series II and compare it to the Hogwart's motor.  If the worm is the same, that would be a huge plus!  If I have to, I can consider losing the flywheel for TMCC upgrades.

I want to add one more reply to this thread, in hopes that someone from Lionel or MTH reads it.  I'm sensing a lost opportunity here.  Although most of us lack the skills to build a loco from scratch, there's a subset of model railroaders who stay with it because they like tinkering, and even full-on customization.  So it's a letdown that the majority of locos are designed in a way that frustrates even folks with advanced mechanical skills.

IMO Lionel should encourage, empower, enable this kind of tinkering.  Every loco should have a modular interface for its motor, gearbox, replaceable wheels and axles, electronics, optional add-on detailing kits, etc.  Some examples might be  a high- and a low-speed worm gear; axles with or without grooves for rubber tires; Boxpok or spoked driving wheel assemblies; alternate pilots, feedwater heaters, boiler fronts, etc.  Maybe they could even release a couple of "screwdriver assembly" kits like the vaunted 700K of the 1930s.  As the prime model railroading demographic ages, larger scales really lend themselves to this type of thing.  But please, no restricted parts availability out of fear that someone will "build a Vision Line whatever out of parts" and sell it as a counterfeit.

Ideally when someone buys a starter set loco, it shouldn't quickly become obsolete or outclassed.  There should be an upgrade path, which endorses and reinforces the original purchase decision.  I believe Lionel, MTH, etc., should embrace these philosophies, for both their own continuity and the good of the hobby as a whole.  My $.02.

Hello, I would like to improve the motorisation of my hogwarts express with the first small motor , and like you, I'm wondering if the motor of the polar express series II can be mounted on the hogwarts, has anybody have tried to do that?

Thanks a lot

Frank Timko mounted a larger motor in one of my Hogwart's locomotives, I'd contact him to see about getting it done.

Timko Repair Depot

Frank does all our Williams engine repairs as well as converts Lionel trucks to can motors for My personal F3's

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Frank Timko mounted a larger motor in one of my Hogwart's locomotives, I'd contact him to see about getting it done.

Timko Repair Depot

John, do you recall the cost? I’m trying to decide how interested I am.

@Jim R. posted:

John, do you recall the cost? I’m trying to decide how interested I am.

I don't recall the exact amount, but it wasn't excessive, something like $60 for the motor and installation.  I remember thinking it was very reasonable at the time.

Thanks for your answers, just one question, is the same motor on PE series 1 and on the hogwarts express?

Yes, it's the same sized motor.  I believe it's actually a different part number due to the fact that it has a different worm gear.

Polar Express Series 1 Motor

Not available, so the one on the right is suggested as the alternative.

Hogwarts Conventional Set Motor

OK thanks, I'm surprised because when I ordered a replacement motor for my PE series 1, I have received this one, it seems to be a another model! An Igarashi motor.

Looks like a replacement for the out of stock motor.  As long as it has the right worm get and mounting screw locations, it can't be worse than the original Series 1 motor.

That part number shows up a different picture on the Lionel parts site...

No John, I think it's the same motor, we just see the other side of the motor on the website lionel. But I think it's longer that 630-8661-100

Hi everybody, I  succeeded to change the original motor, with a mabuchi RK 270. It's necessary to add steel plate because the distance between the holes is not the same. Just a buy a worm module 0.5, and turn a big flywheel, the power is now ok.

@Isaak570 posted:

Hi everybody, I  succeeded to change the original motor, with a mabuchi RK 270. It's necessary to add steel plate because the distance between the holes is not the same. Just a buy a worm module 0.5, and turn a big flywheel, the power is now ok.

Did you swap the worm gear?……if so, how did you do it?…your adapter plate looks very nice,…well done,..

Pat

It's very easy to swap it but I prefer keeping the original motor with the original worm. (with a little extractor)

So I bought a new worm with the same module and put on the new motor.

I'm really interested in where you got that worm gear!  I have one of these that I had Frank Timko fit a larger motor to.  However, I have the one that I did all the work to upgrade it to TMCC with the Super-Chuffer, fan driven smoke, etc., and I'd love to stick a larger motor in that one as well.  The mounting plate looks very professional, you obviously have a mill of some kind to do that work.

I looked around, where exactly did you get that motor?  What is the exact part number?  I looked at a bunch of them on eBay and AliExpress, but they didn't seem to fit with the operating requirements of the locomotive.

Sorry I have made a mistake, it's not 270 mabuchi.

It's a Mabuchi RK-370CA-14445, is turns a little slower (16800rpm) than the original 19000. But more torque.

The Rs-385 would be better but diameter is too big.

For the worm, it's module 0.5 diameter 6mm. Not hard to find it.

On the polar express, it's module 0.6 diameter 6mm, very hard to find it!

Yes!…as John stated, …where did you get the gear?….can you share your source with the rest of the group!?….please,..

Pat

Also, share your secret on how you installed the gear please,…

Pat

For the motor, you find it on ebay.

For the worm, ali express.

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Mabuch...id=711-127632-2357-0