According to Hot Water, the current whistle on the 611 is NOT the original N&W one. When 611 last ran in 1994, did she have her original whistle? Who actually is in possession of the original one?
There is a rumor that it currently resides with Mr. Preston Claytor. 
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According to Hot Water, the current whistle on the 611 is NOT the original N&W one. When 611 last ran in 1994, did she have her original whistle?
No, she carried an "original N&W passenger whistle" but her original whistle. I can't remember which 600 class locomotive that Chairman Robert B. Claytor got his whistle from. When 611 was first restored and placed into excursion service, Mr. Claytor had his personal whistle installed. I'm not sure if anybody knows what happened to the original whistle from 611.
Who actually is in possession of the original one?
The "Claytor family whistle" is in the possession of Preston Clayton, the late Robert Claytor's son.
There is a rumor that it currently resides with Mr. Preston Claytor.
That is NOT a "rumor". Preston Claytor is still currently in possession of his father's N&W passenger whistle, i.e. the Claytor family whistle. The 611 currently carries a former UP whistle, owned and on loan from one of the ladies on the steam crew.
How does somebody end up with such a whistle? Was it put up for sell ?
Hot Water:
THANK YOU for answering my queries!
While on the steam crew at TVRM during the summer of 1984, I had the pleasure of meeting Robert Claytor and his then young son, Preston, shortly after Mr. Claytor had just brought 611 and its passenger consist into Chattanooga on an excursion. Both climbed aboard Ex-SR #722 and Mr. Claytor took the right hand seat while Preston proceeded to hand fire the locomotive. I climbed up on the tender coal boards and Billy Byrd (my engineer) took the fireman's seat. Mr. Claytor seemed to be enjoying our small consolidation as much as he had running that thoroughbred, #611!
He and his brother, Graham, were TRUE steam rail buffs as well as CEO's in the railroad industry. They are missed, and we are not likely to see their kind again!
How does somebody end up with such a whistle? Was it put up for sell ?
Yes, many steam whistles of all sizes are sold through various sources, even eBay. They are VERY expensive. Back in the "end of steam" days, many railroads sold headlights, bells, whistles, builder plates, and cab gauges, to any and all folks that were interested. The C&O, as one example, allowed anyone that had the tools and the strength to remove whatever they wanted, to visit the scrap lines in Huntington, WVa., and take anything they wanted. I was unable to physically get there myself, so I had a friend contact someone in the C&O Stores Dept., and I purchase a steam locomotive bell and a front number plate from an H-8. Coast me $100, in 1962, including shipping to my mother's house in New Jersey.
Preston Claytor stepped back from Fire Up 611 when the decision to add 'Spirit of Roanke' to the cab was made. He took the whistle with him. I've heard the current whistle on 611 belongs to Cheri George.
Preston Claytor stepped back from Fire Up 611 when the decision to add 'Spirit of Roanke' to the cab was made. He took the whistle with him. I've heard the current whistle on 611 belongs to Cheri George.
Correct! Also thanks, as I couldn't remember Cheri's full name.
While on youtube I came across a video of a german steamer.It had a whistle that sounded like 1218.Another one was in japan had a steam locomotive that sounded pretty closse to a american whistle.Heres the biggest shocker a train down under had a very cool sounding southern railway horn.Made me think of the old high hood units.You never know what you will come across on youtube.
Hopefully, Preston and the 611 team can reach a compromise regarding the whistle.
611 surely represents the "spirit" of Roanoke and the hard work and skill of the many laborers at the East End Shops who built her.
But, without the late Robert Claytor's vision and passion, we should never have seen the 611 run during the years 1982-1994!
Perhaps, the name of Robert Claytor on the cab would not have been a bad choice either! 
As disappointing as it is to hear a UP whistle, I've got a preorder in with MTH for the next Premier 611 J. MTH is promising a new sound set recorded from the restored 611. If I had wanted a UP whistle, I would have ordered a FEF. Sure hope that MTH "gets it right"!
As disappointing as it is to hear a UP whistle, I've got a preorder in with MTH for the next Premier 611 J. MTH is promising a new sound set recorded from the restored 611. If I had wanted a UP whistle, I would have ordered a FEF. Sure hope that MTH "gets it right"!
I already have alerted the folks at MTH that I deal with, to NOT go out and make another recording of 611 as she currently is now. I'm sure someone from MTH will be contacting me when the sound set is being worked on for the "correct" N&W passenger whistle sound, i.e. NOT the UP whistle.
It is interesting to listen to the whistle that 611 has now, and then compare it to its whistle in the "Going Home"(1983) program included on the DVD that VMT - Fireup611 is selling as a souvenir. Perhaps the modelmakers could use this program as a guide.
This DVD only costs $9.99 and also has a 3:45 feature about the Juniata shops in Altoona.
How does somebody end up with such a whistle? Was it put up for sell ?
I know it's not a whistle, but this Boiler pressure gauge off of Y6a 2164 was given to my Grandfather at his retirement party.
The Norfolk Southern contracted videos, "Steam People" (1988) and "Going Home" (1983), are two of the finest videos regarding the restoration and operation of both the 611 and the 1218!
My VHS copy of those two videos plus a 1945 N&W promotional film titled "Modern Coal-Burning Steam Locomotive", was titled "Three in Steam".
All THREE are wonderful and informative videos, especially the N&W film which shows a Class J being built from the frame up, even including the rolling of the boiler sheet!
Claytor's whistle is from the original J, number 600, at least that was the story in the '80's when 611 began her first excursion career. 611's original whistle went missing when she was a "park engine". They were all off-the-shelf Hancock long-bell 3-chimes. Same whistles were used on the K class 4-8-2s. They were operated by Viloco Air Actuators and also had manual whistle cords hung on both sides of the cab from a common rod that was just above the backhead of the boiler.
From the N&W Historical Society Archives
Note the Viloco valve on the brake stand and the two pull cords for the engineer and fireman.
Tinplate, I found the video "Modern Coal-Burning Steam Locomotive" on YouTube. I enjoyed watching it. Thank you,
Dan Weinhold
Dan:
Glad you enjoyed it! I still have the original VHS copy of "Three in Steam" with the NS logo on the box. I subsequently converted it to a DVD with my Toshiba player/duplicator.
While chasing the test run of the first restoration of the 611 in 1982 from Attalla, AL to Chattanooga, TN, I remember the NS photo van also chasing the engine along with everyone else! The late Bill Purdy was at the throttle.
I will never forget the thrill of that chase!
Hot Water, Please get in touch with me.
kterterian@gmail.com
Claytor's whistle is from the original J, number 600, at least that was the story in the '80's when 611 began her first excursion career. 611's original whistle went missing when she was a "park engine". They were all off-the-shelf Hancock long-bell 3-chimes. Same whistles were used on the K class 4-8-2s. They were operated by Viloco Air Actuators and also had manual whistle cords hung on both sides of the cab from a common rod that was just above the backhead of the boiler.
From the N&W Historical Society Archives
Note the Viloco valve on the brake stand and the two pull cords for the engineer and fireman.
I don't think that there is any proof that the Viloco valve was ever put into widespread service.
Audio recordings bear out that an air operating valve wasn't being used by the engineers.
Claytor's whistle is from the original J, number 600, at least that was the story in the '80's when 611 began her first excursion career. 611's original whistle went missing when she was a "park engine". They were all off-the-shelf Hancock long-bell 3-chimes. Same whistles were used on the K class 4-8-2s. They were operated by Viloco Air Actuators and also had manual whistle cords hung on both sides of the cab from a common rod that was just above the backhead of the boiler.
From the N&W Historical Society Archives
Note the Viloco valve on the brake stand and the two pull cords for the engineer and fireman.
I don't think that there is any proof that the Viloco valve was ever put into widespread service.
Audio recordings bear out that an air operating valve wasn't being used by the engineers.
I don't dispute either of your points. Just pointing out that the cab photo and a contemporaneous article in Railway Mechanical Engineer, reprinted in Train Shed Cyclopedia, indicate that at least the first five Js had the Viloco Actuators when built.
I have heard all of the Link recordings as well as some others and never heard the on-off Viloco whistling either.
Here is how it worked.
You know, there are two points that haven't been addressed:
Is VMT satisfied with the UP Whistle?
Do they have any desire to even consider replacing it?
Neither of these points can be answered here. I admit as happy as I was to see the 611 under steam again, the UP whistle was truly a disappointment. It lacks "soul".
If Mr. Fitzpatrick wants another whistle, he can find one. The Nathan Hancock 3 chime were on the J's, K's, and E's. There has to be an original N&W whistle somewhere if they really want one (even if it is obtained as a loaner). Worse case, there are reproductions available. I even gave thought to buying and donating a reproduction, but that assumes that VMT would want it.
This discussion has been very useful. FWIW, I've learned a lot about N&W whistles....
You know, there are two points that haven't been addressed:
Is VMT satisfied with the UP Whistle?
Do they have any desire to even consider replacing it?
Neither of these points can be answered here. I admit, as happy as I was to see the 611 under steam again, the whistle was truly a disappointment.
If Mr. Fitzpatrick wants another whistle, he can find one. The Nathan 3 chime were on the J's, K's, and E's. There has to be an original N&W whistle somewhere if they really want one (even if it is obtained as a loaner). Worse case, there are reproductions available. I even gave thought to buying and donating a reproduction, but that assumes that VMT would want it.
This discussion has been very useful. FWIW, I've learned a lot about N&W whistles....
They were not Nathan 3-chimes, they were Hancock 3-chimes.
So is the UP whistle.
If you doubt me, see what the UP Historical Society has to say about it.
Listen to the those UP recordings and you'll see how different whistles of the exact same model can sound.
For comparison, here are some N&W Recordings with a few Hancocks and quite a few Hooters
Note that both websites specify "Hancock Long Bell 3-Chime Whistles", not shop made, custom or specially designed whistles.
The placement on the engine, the orientation, the type of steam it's blown on (superheated or saturated) and especially wear and tear on the whistle can and do greatly influence the sound.
Any object in the near field of the whistle can detune some of the chambers, causing a change in their audio frequencies (notes).
One whistle collector has stated that "All of the hundreds of Hancock Long Bell 3-Chime whistles that were ever produced were at one time or another mounted on the 25 Union Pacific Big Boys, if Ebay advertisements are to be believed."
OK, I stand corrected Nathan vs Hancock. I misspoke. I'll let others weigh-in that the current whistle is the same as the original.
I'll let others weigh-in that the current whistle is the same as the original.
To my ears, the current whistle does NOT sound like the "Claytor family N&W passenger whistle". It sounds pretty much just like UP 844 and/or 3985, back when they were operational.
Not in my opinion.
If you guys take a listen to the first two recordings on the N&W page, you'll hear 2 different K2 class Mountains at Blue Ridge wearing the same model whistle.
They sound nothing like each other.
I'm afraid the only way for 611 to get her '83-'94 "voice" back is to get Mr. Claytor to acquiesce.
FYI, the very first steam-up and yard movement recordings of 611 a few weeks ago had a truly horrible sounding whistle. If that was Preston Claytor's whistle, before he took it and left, it needs some work to make it sound like the whistle we're all familiar with.
I just found this interesting video from The Whistle Shop in Waterford, MI, which manufactures working replicas of steam whistles.
In this video he is showing his N&W 611 Replica whistle and he also has Preston Claytor's whistle which was loaned to him for this project.
About 5 minutes into the video he describes how even just simply rotating the bell of a whistle, relative to the bowl, can change the sound of it.
FYI, the very first steam-up and yard movement recordings of 611 a few weeks ago had a truly horrible sounding whistle.
I agree. The whistle, on "First Fire" sounded sick. I attributed it to low boiler pressure; that probably wasn't right.
I just found this interesting video from The Whistle Shop in Waterford, MI, which manufactures working replicas of steam whistles.
Yeah. I've seen this too. I had posted the same link in an earlier thread. This is the whistle I was referring to when I mentioned that I contemplated donating a replica whistle.
I for one am quite satisfied with the whistle as it now is. Now for the absolute purist, can we "tweak" the existing tooter to a match with the previous whistle? Shame to get so upset about this in the midst of all the N&W greatness this whole new episode showcases !
Per Scott Lindsay, of the Fire Up 611 committee and Steam Operations Corp., the locomotive used to have the Claytor whistle. It currently has a UP whistle (same type as the N&W Claytor one) owned by Scott. For the July 4th runs, it will use Cheri George's whistle.
Scott also said that all three whistles were built identically and the difference in sound comes from minor manufacturing stuff (they were hand made) and different levels of use/ wear.
I for one am quite satisfied with the whistle as it now is. Now for the absolute purist, can we "tweak" the existing tooter to a match with the previous whistle? Shame to get so upset about this in the midst of all the N&W greatness this whole new episode showcases !
I always loved the sound of the Hancock from the SP&S that the 4449 wore for years. Now they've replaced it with a different Hancock off of an actual SP Daylight engine and it definitely sounds different (more rounded and mellow, less throaty). I was able to pick out the old whistle instantly because of it's distinctive tone. The new one is more generic.
One of my favorite recordings is on Brad Miller's "4449 Pinnacle" CD, where the train leaves Portland Union Station, crosses the Willamette River and proceeds south towards Brooklyn. There's a glorious cacophony of sound, with Doyle blowing nearly continuous grade crossing warnings as the engine passes one city street after another. It's the sound of unrelenting power, as the exhaust and whistle echo back off the nearby buildings.
That cut tells you everything you need to know about the Superpower steam locomotive.
Things change. I'm just happy that these machines still live and breathe, more than a half century after their sisters were turned into heaps of scrap metal.
If it means having some small decals on the cab sides or a slight change in the tone of the whistle, I'll take it.
One of my favorite recordings is on Brad Miller's "4449 Pinnacle" CD, where the train leaves Portland Union Station, crosses the Willamette River and proceeds south towards Brooklyn. There's a glorious cacophony of sound, with Doyle blowing nearly continuous grade crossing warnings as the engine passes one city street after another. It's the sound of unrelenting power, as the exhaust and whistle echo back off the nearby buildings.
A few comments:
1) All throughout the Freedom Train tour and even the New Orleans Worlds Fair Daylight (1984), 4449 carried that SP&S whistle. When the SP&S 700 was eventually restored to operation, Doyle thought it appropriate to give that whistle to the 700 crew.
2) Subsequently, a Northern Pacific "Z Class" whistle, owned by Dick Yager, was mounted on 4449, and was used for many years.
3) In 2012, Martin Hansen was able to acquire an original, air operated SP GS Class whistle, and after cleaning up, that is the whistle currently on 4449.
4) For what it's worth, the whistle on 4449, as well as UP 844 & 3985 are supplied with superheated steam. The whistle on N&W J Class locomotives is reportedly supplied with saturated steam.
How does somebody end up with such a whistle? Was it put up for sell ?
I have a Steam whistle somewhere in my house. I got it from my ex's grandmother. Her husband used to work for a steel mill and somehow he ended up with it. It has an inscription on it like it was given to someone as an award. I'll try to find it and post a picture.
True, it is supposed to be piped off the the turret bridgebox.
Now, tell me which engine this Hancock whistle is from (one prominent forum member is disqualified from spilling the beans):
Gotta love that echo at the end.
True, it is supposed to be piped off the the turret bridgebox.
Now, tell me which engine this Hancock whistle is from (one prominent forum member is disqualified from spilling the beans):
Gotta love that echo at the end.
I'm pretty sure I've seen Hot Water out with that gal on a few occasions.
One of my favorite recordings is on Brad Miller's "4449 Pinnacle" CD, where the train leaves Portland Union Station, crosses the Willamette River and proceeds south towards Brooklyn. There's a glorious cacophony of sound, with Doyle blowing nearly continuous grade crossing warnings as the engine passes one city street after another. It's the sound of unrelenting power, as the exhaust and whistle echo back off the nearby buildings.
A few comments:
1) All throughout the Freedom Train tour and even the New Orleans Worlds Fair Daylight (1984), 4449 carried that SP&S whistle. When the SP&S 700 was eventually restored to operation, Doyle thought it appropriate to give that whistle to the 700 crew.
2) Subsequently, a Northern Pacific "Z Class" whistle, owned by Dick Yager, was mounted on 4449, and was used for many years.
3) In 2012, Martin Hansen was able to acquire an original, air operated SP GS Class whistle, and after cleaning up, that is the whistle currently on 4449.
4) For what it's worth, the whistle on 4449, as well as UP 844 & 3985 are supplied with superheated steam. The whistle on N&W J Class locomotives is reportedly supplied with saturated steam.
Thanks for that information, Jack.
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