ERR Upgrade and Learn by doing and LOOK at the size of these diesel motors

This was an under-rated chassis with the large Mabuchi motors and flywheels, and only used four times -- the Santa Fe and New York Central from 1997, the Erie from 1998 and the Pennsylvania from 1999-2000. The PRR was the only USA-made diesel to have the Odyssey Speed Control system as OEM equipment.

RailSounds 3.0 was the first modular system, and only used from 1998-1999, with a few stragglers into 2000-2001. Normally, as long as you coupled a RailSounds 3.0 power board with a 3.0 audio board, you were in good shape. If I remember correctly, the power board feeds a 12v supply in addition to the standard 5v to the audio board. Some motherboards don't have the trace for the 12v line, which is why they won't work with some versions. But as you discovered, the PIC and ROM chips from RailSounds 2.5 through 4.0 are compatible with each other, which is why your 3.0 chips could be transplanted into a 4.0 board.

Lastly, this chassis is also one of the few to use the LCRU2 board without the motor-driving components. Essentially, it's a non-modular R2LC... in fact, the code contained therein is usually R2LC02.

Nice job on the upgrade.

 TRW

Thank you for the insight.  The 12V supply makes sense.  It looks like they just split the RS 2.5 board to make it modular.  Very few 3.0 boards, just like very few 2.0 conventional RS boards.  I knew about the LCRU without drivers but always wonder in what unit it was used.  Now I know.

Any insight on what the change was between RS 4.0 and RS 4E?  Not many 4Es either.   G

George, the 4 and 4E boards look identical, I looked at all the components and positions and couldn't find any difference.  I believe it's the firmware that is different, though I can't see what's really different in operation.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

George, the 4 and 4E boards look identical, I looked at all the components and positions and couldn't find any difference.  I believe it's the firmware that is different, though I can't see what's really different in operation.

One difference I have noticed between 4 and 4E is the 4E whistle seems to have a bit of quill or multi tone to it. The few RS4 series boards I have bought directly from Lionel have been 4Es.

BTW I was given an Erie/Lackawanna PA1 from early 1990s for an upgrade. When I opened it up to verify what kind of motors  it had in it I was sure they were also large Mabuchis. The club decided to pass on the upgrade so I never ordered boards for it. Lionel no longer shows this engine on its parts site but all references I can find on it list dual Pullmors. Anyone have one of these who can verify one way or the other?

Pete

That is probably all in the firmware of the sound and processor chips I would imagine.

BTW I was given an Erie/Lackawanna PA1 from early 1990s for an upgrade. When I opened it up to verify what kind of motors  it had in it I was sure they were also large Mabuchis. The club decided to pass on the upgrade so I never ordered boards for it. Lionel no longer shows this engine on its parts site but all references I can find on it list dual Pullmors. Anyone have one of these who can verify one way or the other?

Pete

Pete, see link, The EL's had can motors too!

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...6001-001Complete.pdf

Thank you Mark. Sometimes CRS sets in and makes me have doubts. I checked when Todd did not include it in his list.

Pete

ZWPOWER13 posted:

BTW I was given an Erie/Lackawanna PA1 from early 1990s for an upgrade. When I opened it up to verify what kind of motors  it had in it I was sure they were also large Mabuchis. The club decided to pass on the upgrade so I never ordered boards for it. Lionel no longer shows this engine on its parts site but all references I can find on it list dual Pullmors. Anyone have one of these who can verify one way or the other?

Pete

Pete, see link, The EL's had can motors too!

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...6001-001Complete.pdf

If this one is what Pete had, it is very similar to a PS-1 engine.  DCRU and same looking CV board MTH used.  The later late 90s Erie is like the NYC/ATSF PA as mention above.   G

gunrunnerjohn posted:

George, the 4 and 4E boards look identical, I looked at all the components and positions and couldn't find any difference.  I believe it's the firmware that is different, though I can't see what's really different in operation.

I agree just curious what firmware/feature  changes. G

I think Pete's comment about the change in the whistle sounds may be one difference.

I too upgraded my SF PA-1 way back when to ERR and this set looks and overall runs great. Problem I encountered is that even with the large motors it is not a heavy loco and the wheels spun trying to haul the b-unit and the 6 aluminum 15" passenger cars that were offered back then going up a slight grade on a friends layout that replicates Tehachapi loop. A little nudge from Mr Hand gets it up and over though.

GGG posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

George, the 4 and 4E boards look identical, I looked at all the components and positions and couldn't find any difference.  I believe it's the firmware that is different, though I can't see what's really different in operation.

I agree just curious what firmware/feature  changes. G

One other thing. I believe the 4Es have "dynachuff". Not sure any of the 4s have this feature. Basically as you accellerate the chuff is louder and deeper. As you cruise or decelerate the chuff becomes more muted. I am sure its standard on the newer Railsounds.

Pete

I have one of these - stock. Now I'm thinking...not another project!

Anyway - nice work on a nice loco - I really like the industrial feel of this platform - in my opinion, one of the few heavy-duty "Lionel philosophy" designs to exist in a modern, DC-motor platform interpretation. Until I got mine (NYC) a couple of years ago, I did not know that these locos were Michigan products. They just feel tough, whether that is true or not. Even the Mabuchis are cool (not Pittmans, but, still...).

GGG posted:

Thank you for the insight.  The 12V supply makes sense.  It looks like they just split the RS 2.5 board to make it modular.  Very few 3.0 boards, just like very few 2.0 conventional RS boards.  I knew about the LCRU without drivers but always wonder in what unit it was used.  Now I know.

Any insight on what the change was between RS 4.0 and RS 4E?  Not many 4Es either.   G

There are a fair amount of RailSounds 3.0 systems out there, but you're right that the 2.0 systems are very few-and-far between. They were only used in something like six products, and are a pain to work on because everything is hard-wired. I've always wondered if there is TMCC functionality (serial-in) on the 2.0 boards somewhere as some (but not all) of the 2.0 sound sets are TMCC-compatible.

RailSounds 4E (Enhanced) was the software upgrade to RS 4.0. It was used for about two years prior to the switch to RS 5.0. If I remember correctly, functionality did NOT change. But as improved speakers were used on later products (FatBoys, etc.), the limitations of the compression used to store and play back the various sounds became apparent. RS4E used more memory and/or a better processor so that the sound files wouldn't need as much compression, and therefore would deliver a clearer, less static-filled sound. (Rudy would definitely know the details on the above.)

And while I'm dusting off the mental cobwebs, there's another RailSounds offshoot worth mentioning -- RailSounds 54. Besides improved sounds and functionality, RailSounds 5.0 was a hardware cost savings for steam locomotives as it eliminated the AD20 board and transferred its functions to the RS5 audio board. The flipside of that was the  software/programming/sound sets were more expensive to develop, basically because of all the added features. Therefore, for the "lower-end" locomotives that would use the RS5 hardware, a variation was developed that basically used the simpler RS4 functionality and sounds in the RS5 hardware. The PICs for these sound sets are labeled RS54, and they were used in the last three TMCC LionMaster Challengers and maybe a few others.

Norton posted:

One difference I have noticed between 4 and 4E is the 4E whistle seems to have a bit of quill or multi tone to it. The few RS4 series boards I have bought directly from Lionel have been 4Es.

BTW I was given an Erie/Lackawanna PA1 from early 1990s for an upgrade. When I opened it up to verify what kind of motors  it had in it I was sure they were also large Mabuchis. The club decided to pass on the upgrade so I never ordered boards for it. Lionel no longer shows this engine on its parts site but all references I can find on it list dual Pullmors. Anyone have one of these who can verify one way or the other?

There is no unique 4E hardware. As far as I know, there really wasn't any new functionality to 4E.

I didn't mention the Samhongsa-produced Alco PAs from Korea -- Rio Grande and Erie Lackawanna -- that pre-dated the Santa Fe and NYC, but I'm fairly certain they use the same big Mabuchi motors. None of the Lionel Alco PAs ever had Pullmor motors, but as a point of curiosity, the PRR set was supposed to come with Odyssey motors. Instead, it became one of the first diesels (and the only one produced in the US) to come with the Odyssey System.

Norton posted:

One other thing. I believe the 4Es have "dynachuff". Not sure any of the 4s have this feature. Basically as you accellerate the chuff is louder and deeper. As you cruise or decelerate the chuff becomes more muted. I am sure its standard on the newer Railsounds.

DynaChuff definitely didn't premier with RS4E -- I think it goes all the way back to RS2.5.

TRW

GGG posted:

 

This engine should be a monster puller with these two motors.  

I ran my ABA set (2 powered A, Railsounds B) on our modular layout at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania last weekend.  It pulled twelve 21" K-line aluminum passenger cars (4 were hi-levels) with no problem.   But between the engines and the incandescent lighted cars it was drawing 8 amps!  After a while I removed 2 cars to be safe and ran ABA and 10 cars for more than an hour.

Time to bite the bullet and convert the cars to LED strips.

Bob

PaperTRW posted:There is no unique 4E hardware. As far as I know, there really wasn't any new functionality to 4E.

I didn't mention the Samhongsa-produced Alco PAs from Korea -- Rio Grande and Erie Lackawanna -- that pre-dated the Santa Fe and NYC, but I'm fairly certain they use the same big Mabuchi motors. None of the Lionel Alco PAs ever had Pullmor motors, but as a point of curiosity, the PRR set was supposed to come with Odyssey motors. Instead, it became one of the first diesels (and the only one produced in the US) to come with the Odyssey System.

 DynaChuff definitely didn't premier with RS4E -- I think it goes all the way back to RS2.5.

TRW

That helps to explain why these early PAs seem better detail than the newer ones. Thanks for the clarification on the Railsounds.

As an aside I just noticed Mabuchi 545s have 7 amp plus stall current!!! No Cruise Lites for this one.

Pete