Question for Rich: I just watched a youtube video of #765 at Harrisburg last summer. Very nice video! Question: why is there most always a diesel engine somewhere in the consist? Some kind of requirement, maby?
Thanks.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I believe there are at least three main reasons.
1 Passenger coaches are set up for external head end power (HEP) for lighting and A/C. Steam locos have a 28 volt DC turbogenerator for lighting its headlight and cab lights. The passenger cars require high voltage AC at power levels the steam engine generator cannot produce.
2. The diseasel can give a gentle nudge to the consist when starting or steep gradients with slippery rails.
3. The dynamic brakes on the diseasel can save a lot of wear and tear on the normal brakes on downgrade.
4. During ferry moves, for example, the diseasel will use a lot less fuel and no water, allowing the steamer to greatly extend its range without stopping.
Perhaps Hot Water or the Rich can fill in any missed details or incorrect statements, particularly as pertaining to HEP voltages.
Tony
tonyh,
Generally pretty good answers, except for no.1. The passenger consist had its own "power car" for HEP. Besides, freight diesels do NOT in any way provide HEP power. Also, the DC voltage out of the steam driven Dynamotor is 32 volts DC for cab and head lights. Other examples would be the Southern Pacific GS-4 class 4-8-4s, which had three Dynamotors: one for 32 volts cab & head light, one fro 12 volts Mars light, and one for 64 volts electro-pneumatic train brakes (when then were equipped with that, back in the 1940s).
Thanks for the clarifications Hot Water. What is/are the voltage(s) supplied by the HEP generator?
Hope my answers were close enough for Gov't work!
Tony
Originally Posted by tonyh:
Thanks for the clarifications Hot Water. What is/are the voltage(s) supplied by the HEP generator?
Tony
All Head End Power generators supply 480 volt, 3 phase AC for Amtrak certified passenger equipment. Also, the UP, BNSF, NS, CSX, KCS, CN and CP all use the same HEP system for their passenger/executive equipment. The Amtrak diesel electric passenger units usually have 800KW HEP supply.
Originally Posted by tonyh:
1 Passenger coaches are set up for external head end power (HEP) for lighting and A/C. Steam locos have a 28 volt DC turbogenerator for lighting its headlight and cab lights. The passenger cars require high voltage AC at power levels the steam engine generator cannot produce.
2. The diseasel can give a gentle nudge to the consist when starting or steep gradients with slippery rails.
3. The dynamic brakes on the diseasel can save a lot of wear and tear on the normal brakes on downgrade.
4. During ferry moves, for example, the diseasel will use a lot less fuel and no water, allowing the steamer to greatly extend its range without stopping.
Perhaps Hot Water or the Rich can fill in any missed details or incorrect statements, particularly as pertaining to HEP voltages.
Tony
Items 1 through 3 are all wrong. The diesel was not used in that manner at all. We had a power car for the train, we cannot use the dynamics on the diesel with the 765 leading, and I can start a train moving more smoothly with the steam engine than I ever could with a diesel. Besides, the diesels that were used do not have HEP generators on them.
Item 4 is correct, in that we used the diesel to stretch the coal on the longer deadhead moves.
There is one other item that no one has mentioned, and it was the REAL reason the diesel was back there. The diesel was the source of electricity for the cab signals on the 765. Note that when we deadheaded home from St. Louis in September, there was no diesel in the train.
In 2013 we will have a diesel with us on some trips, but not all the time. We are adding a third turbo-generator and a small diesel generator on the 765 so we will not need the diesel to power the cab signal equipment any more. That means NO DIESEL ON HORSESHOE CURVE in 2013. (Yes...we will be there again in in 2013, and you will be able to buy a ticket to ride this time!)
Details coming next year...
Rich - Thanks for the clarification!
Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:
Originally Posted by tonyh:
1 Passenger coaches are set up for external head end power (HEP) for lighting and A/C. Steam locos have a 28 volt DC turbogenerator for lighting its headlight and cab lights. The passenger cars require high voltage AC at power levels the steam engine generator cannot produce.
2. The diseasel can give a gentle nudge to the consist when starting or steep gradients with slippery rails.
3. The dynamic brakes on the diseasel can save a lot of wear and tear on the normal brakes on downgrade.
4. During ferry moves, for example, the diseasel will use a lot less fuel and no water, allowing the steamer to greatly extend its range without stopping.
Perhaps Hot Water or the Rich can fill in any missed details or incorrect statements, particularly as pertaining to HEP voltages.
Tony
Items 1 through 3 are all wrong. The diesel was not used in that manner at all. We had a power car for the train, we cannot use the dynamics on the diesel with the 765 leading, and I can start a train moving more smoothly with the steam engine than I ever could with a diesel. Besides, the diesels that were used do not have HEP generators on them.
Item 4 is correct, in that we used the diesel to stretch the coal on the longer deadhead moves.
There is one other item that no one has mentioned, and it was the REAL reason the diesel was back there. The diesel was the source of electricity for the cab signals on the 765. Note that when we deadheaded home from St. Louis in September, there was no diesel in the train.
In 2013 we will have a diesel with us on some trips, but not all the time. We are adding a third turbo-generator and a small diesel generator on the 765 so we will not need the diesel to power the cab signal equipment any more. That means NO DIESEL ON HORSESHOE CURVE in 2013. (Yes...we will be there again in in 2013, and you will be able to buy a ticket to ride this time!)
Details coming next year...
Thanks all for the replies.
Rich, I suspected it might have had something to do with signals but wasn't sure.
Thanks for the clarification.
Jay
Good to know the 765 will be back in my neck of the woods next year!
Good to hear of another great season approaching.
Any chance it might make it across the Delaware river? (PANT PANT)
Ever since that Garden State in '88 fiasco I've been wanting to make it all the way to Harrisburg!
Originally Posted by Kent Loudon:
Any chance it might make it across the Delaware river? (PANT PANT)
Ever since that Garden State in '88 fiasco I've been wanting to make it all the way to Harrisburg!
Not in 2013. Maybe in 2015.
>>Any chance it might make it across the Delaware river? (PANT PANT)
>>Not in 2013. Maybe in 2015.
OK! I'll try not to die before then!
Maybe across the Lackawanna Cutoff on my 99th birthday?
Rich,
Is Kansas City on the schedule in '13 or '14? Hope to see you
guys soon. Hope you and the crew have a wonderful holiday
season!
KC in 2014.
Great news! Thanks Rich look forward to seeing you guys then.
Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:
.... We are adding a third turbo-generator and a small diesel generator on the 765...
A diesel generator on a steam locomotive???? What's next, cats and dogs living together! lol
Is Harrisburg, pa the furthest east you can come? If so why? I would live to see you guys near the Philly area. Lots of 765 fans in this area.
I would think that the clearances and the overhead wires would be a problem for taking 765 into the "Philly area".
Philly is on tap for 2015. The NS Clearance Department will have to take a close look at things east of Harrisburg to confirm that we clear the wires.
If you are referring to catenary, there is none remaining on NS owned lines. The only catenary east of Harrisburg that's NS trains encounter are:
1. Crossing SEPTA between FORD and KALB at Norristown going from the Harrisburg Line to the Morrisville Line.
2. At Perryville, MD coming off the Port Road Branch onto the NEC traveling to Baltimore and The Delmarva Secondary (Wilmington, DE)
The electrofied former PRR mainline between Harrisburg and Philly (via Lancaster and Coatsville) is now owned and operated by Amtrak (Keystone Cooridor). Given the amount of 110 mph traffic I don't think we have to worry about clearances there.
1. Crossing SEPTA between FORD and KALB at Norristown going from the Harrisburg Line to the Morrisville Line.
2. At Perryville, MD coming off the Port Road Branch onto the NEC traveling to Baltimore and The Delmarva Secondary (Wilmington, DE)
The electrofied former PRR mainline between Harrisburg and Philly (via Lancaster and Coatsville) is now owned and operated by Amtrak (Keystone Cooridor). Given the amount of 110 mph traffic I don't think we have to worry about clearances there.
>>
.... We are adding a third turbo-generator and a small diesel generator on the 765...
A diesel generator on a steam locomotive???? What's next, cats and dogs living together! lol
I recently took a look at the Clinchfield loco in the B&O museum. It still has the control box for that B unit they teamed up with it.
Originally Posted by Form D:
If you are referring to catenary, there is none remaining on NS owned lines. The only catenary east of Harrisburg that's NS trains encounter are:
1. Crossing SEPTA between FORD and KALB at Norristown going from the Harrisburg Line to the Morrisville Line.
2. At Perryville, MD coming off the Port Road Branch onto the NEC traveling to Baltimore and The Delmarva Secondary (Wilmington, DE)
The electrofied former PRR mainline between Harrisburg and Philly (via Lancaster and Coatsville) is now owned and operated by Amtrak (Keystone Cooridor). Given the amount of 110 mph traffic I don't think we have to worry about clearances there.
1. Crossing SEPTA between FORD and KALB at Norristown going from the Harrisburg Line to the Morrisville Line.
2. At Perryville, MD coming off the Port Road Branch onto the NEC traveling to Baltimore and The Delmarva Secondary (Wilmington, DE)
The electrofied former PRR mainline between Harrisburg and Philly (via Lancaster and Coatsville) is now owned and operated by Amtrak (Keystone Cooridor). Given the amount of 110 mph traffic I don't think we have to worry about clearances there.
I'm pretty sure the 765 can fit under the cat wires. We run doublestacks through SEPTAland (as some of us refer to the Kalb-Ford section), plus CSX runs Q190 and Q191 through there too, with no problem. BUT, it never hurts to double (and triple) check. Also, there is a wye at Kalb. The curve between Kalb and Bridge (guarding the other leg of the wye) might be questionable though...
Harrisburg to Strasburg and back via Amtrak's Keystone Line and the Strasburg RR would be pretty cool, just foaming out loud here...
Errr.. would Strasburg's infastructure support 765? Well, they did get the M1 in there somehow.
Back several years ago when the Strasburg ran that doubleheader to Rockville and back, it was a foggy morning at Leamon Place. You could see juice "leaking" from the catenery when the engines popped off!
Of course, that's only 12,000 volts. When 612 ran out of Hoboken under 25KV, they had to shut off the power!
Originally Posted by Kent Loudon:
Errr.. would Strasburg's infastructure support 765? Well, they did get the M1 in there somehow.
Of course it would.
The 765 is not a "heavy" locomotive. That's why it is so versatile and can go so many places. The 765's axle loadings are probably less than some of the freight cars the Strasburg is handling now.
