765 on Horseshoe curve

You must have been listening to NKP #759, as NKP #765 had not yet been restored as early as 1970.

You are quite correct. It was NKP 759.

Yes, that 12-13 mph speed calculation is probably pretty close. 759 was pretty well maxed out and down on her knees on that climb. But she had maximum horsepower available. Wes Camp was firing the 759 on that run, and he had TWO of the pops lifted going around the curve! I'll post a picture of that later this evening. The 759 crew won an interesting bet on that trip.

I think our train will be a bit lighter than the 759's was, so we may do a little better on the speed around the curve when we get there with 765 later this summer.

Could we have some dates for the last steam on Horseshoe Curve?  NKP 759 went around the curve two times in September 1970 - rode that one myself, what a show with an auxiliary tender and 15 passenger cars.  A couple years later RDG 2102 and GTW 4070 doubleheaded and somewhere in 1975 or 1976 the RDG 2101 (AFT 1) pulled the Freedom Train, assisted by diesels.  Anybody have those dates?

NKP 759 Harrisburg to Gallitzin - Sept 1970

AFT 1 (Reading 2101) July 6, 1976 - stopped for pics and needed diesel assist to restart on hill.  Unassisted to Curve.  Diesels backed down and coupled in front.

Sloan Cornell move from Penn View Mtn RR to Gettysburg w/76 under steam July 18, 1976

Reading 2102/diesels Pittsburgh to Altoona October 1976

2102/4070 May 15, 1977 -- this was the trip where 4070 failed on the hill

2102/4070 May 22, 1977

2102 to Reading, PA for excursions (and eventually BM&R) w/diesels for dynamic breaking 1985

dead steam moves

PRR 1361 to Altoona in 1985/86

CP 1293 from Steamtown to Ohio Central in early 90s

possible N&W 475 on flatcars moving from Iowa to Strasburg in 1988

possible CP 1278 from Gettysburg to Ohio Central in late 90s

more info here http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33265&sid=acc836b611e99555f51d3c9573a4faaf

that should be most everything...

Kevin

Hmmm...whadya think, Wayne?

Should we stop for pictures and then show 'em how it's done without a diesel? 

Stop coming East. I assure you that you will have no trouble getting her started.

The easy part is getting up to the top at Gallitzin. The fun part is coming down the mountain...

ROTFL!! 

Now that's a good one, Forest.

Yeah...it's pretty easy to get moving again doing DOWN 1.7%.

That's what the "Dymatic Brakes" in the NKP Heritage diesel are for.  Saves a lot of brake shoes.

Just let her drift and no need for those ornery diesels. =)

Mountain running was my stock and trade. Babcock Ridge comes to mind near Altoona in ice winters. 200 degree 10 mph switch back curve near the bottom... funtimes.

OK, so the way I read it,  the last live steam move- steam on the point - was 1977 so we are now at 35 years! If the Pennsy retired the last of their steam in 1957, then it's now 55 years after the last of the J1's, K4s' and their kin were retired. 

I read once the PRR I-1 decapods were designed to provide maximum traction effort at 13mph.

With tongue planted firmly in cheek, I'm hoping for the east bound trip, 765's rods could be loosened and a banshee mounted to provide that classic PRR sound! :-)

We are certainly not going to loosen the rods, but we are considering carrying historically correct whistles as we move around to different parts of the NS system.

The NKP whistle will be on the locomotive for all the trips and we'll use that whistle out of Bellevue (of course) then perhaps mount an NYC whistle in Toledo, an N&W hooter in Williamson, WV, a PRR K4 whistle in Conway and Harrisburg and something from the Wabash in St. Louis.

Funny you should say that.  Track 3 and 4 on that CD are a PRR I1 2-10-0 and T1 4-4-4-4.   Now the T1 sounds OK, but the I1 made so much clanking and banging of the beat of the exhaust was almost an afterthought. ( The I1 was going East  and drifting) And the whistle did sound like a banshee.

Not funny at all. :-)  Since the I1 was drifting east, I would expect the throttle is only enough to lub everything, so there is hardly any exhaust.  This is my personal favorite track.  It has a lot of character. 

Be sure to note the pops, as Rich mentioned, singing away on the 759 recording.  

The track of the J1 2-10-2 heading west is another example of an engine on its knees, and if you listen carefully, you hear the pops on it as well.

Bob

Rich, you should mount the whistle from 1361 on the 765 for the trip over the Curve.  That way at least part of it will run again.  

Rich revealed the plan for "guest whistles" appropriate to the major routes we will be on.  We actually have most of them planned out with their owners such as a NYC Mohawk whistle,  something from the N&W, a PRR 3-chime whistle (they were all identical, including the K4s' - even from the 1361) but we are still looking for one from the Wabash.  Anybody out there have one, or know of one that we could borrow for that week?  We will be on the Wabash heritage route from the time we leave Fort Wayne until we return from St. Louis.

Well, unless they plan on NEVER returning to their home base in Fort Wayne, Indiana, the 765 had better be going "back home" westbound, i.e up grade, around Horseshoe Curve.

Yeah...Harrisburg's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. 

LOL!!!! 

Rich, as a Harrisburg native you should know that Harrisburg is a lovely city!  Just be sure to carry at 12 gauge if you do stop in Harrisburg. 

In reference to Rich's post 5/16, I was hoping for a better photo than I had of 759  on the Horseshoe Curve run.  Absent any other, here's what she looked like at MG Tower 7/12/70, one pop still up, holding about 15 mph, with the most ear-splitting, loud exhaust I'd ever heard.

Next day I got my final shot - 759 moving very (!!) fast EB near Mill Creek, PA.

Sorry about the lousy quality of the two slides, but they still convey the spirit of the day and 759's performance at opposite ends of the speed spectrum.

I don't know how difficult this is to arrange, but if you are planning to use "guest" whistles, try to obtain a NYC PASSENGER Mohawk whistle. That would be either an engine number 3000-24, or 3100-49. Reason is that the passenger Mohawks as well as all Hudson and all Niagaras used a SIX chime whistle. All other freight and swtch engines including the 3025-3064 freight Mohawks used a FIVE chime. These were the only whistles used with ONE exception....K-3 and K-11 Pacifics used on commuter service and in particular on the NYC River Division used a six chime "long bell" whistle.

NKP Berks ran (run?) at 240 psi and the late passenger Mohawks were at 250 psi, so the  sound should be "pretty close".

Maximum operating pressure for the NKP Berks is 245 psi. The first pop goes at 247, 2nd at 249 and #3 at 251. You can make steam against the first two and hold 250 if you work at it, but you can't maintain pressure when all three open up, no matter how hard you push the fire.

One of those Mohawk whistles would sound just fine on the 765.

The other problem with Harrisburg is that it is the center cf government for the commonwealth of PA!

This will also show what might have happened if the PRR went for bigger conv. steam!

I promised a picture many posts above this one, and forgot to do it! Here you go...

This picture was taken by former Chessie System/CSX company photographer John B. Corns. It is one of the most dramatic images of steam hard at work that I have ever seen. John tripped the shutter at the perfect moment, when the rods were down. The 759 has 15 cars behind her on Horseshoe Curve, a 1.7% grade. She is making about 12 mph.

There is an interesting story behind this picture...

When Ross Rowland, founder of the High Iron Company, and Wes Camp, the Chief Mechanical Officer on the 759 crew, began to plan these excursion operations, the local Penn Central operating men were skeptical that the 759 could handle 15 cars up the grade and around the curve all by herself.  Ross Rowland tells the story this way:

“The General Superintendent of the railroad...was so convinced that the 759 couldn’t take that train up and around the curve without help that he and some of his senior managers put together a pool of $1,000 and bet me she’d stall before she reached the tunnel. We both put our money in an envelope and gave it to the V.P. of Operations. He gave me the envelope when we returned to Altoona after coming down the hill. I must add he was a good sport about it and made a point of coming up to me and congratulating the crew on a fine job etc.”

But Fireman Wes Camp took the wager one step further. He told the PC men that not only could the 759 pull the train up the hill unassisted, but that he would have the pop valves lifted at the apex of Horseshoe Curve! Of course, they thought he was crazy.

Take a close look at John B. Corns’ stunning picture above. The 759 is at the apex of Horseshoe Curve. The throttle is wide open. The reverse gear is down in the corner. The sanders are on. There are 15 coaches behind her. Two of the three pop valves are lifted. And she never stalled.

Don’t ever bet against Lima Super Power!

What a great photo!....and story.  So I would imagine those extra 4-5 psi were appreciated also...some more T/E & HP. at just the right time.