We were putting together some ideas and photos for our new club business card. One of the fellas has an original 773 Hudson and another guy was asking how well do they run? He reminisced having a couple of MPC 783's I think it was that couldn't more than a few cars.
How does this postwar icon operate?
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Not very well in my opinion at least the postwar one my father had, a real dog for a nearly new engine. My lti 700e remake ran fantastic as well as the legacy model. I think they sold a new armature to fix them, but we just made it a wallhanger.
The 783 is mechanically identical to a 773 with the possible exception if more magnetraction magnets.
IMO, it runs better than any other postwar steamer. Smooth throughout it's speed range, with a very prototypical speed range. I can only run about 20-25 cars and mine has never slipped. It will pull all seven 18" Lionel Alton Limited cars no problem - and those cars are heavy with considerable drag.
Has it's own unique motor noise and E unit buzz. I love it.
My 1950 version runs great--very smooth, although I've never tried to pull more than 4 Irvington cars with it.
My 783:
Jim
Thanks guys. I had the gray one (785) with the spoked drivers and the LTI 700E back in the early 1990s. The K-Line scale heavyweights had just been introduced and my 700E couldn't pull more than 4 or 5 if I remember correctly. No wheel slip, just no power.
Both beautiful pieces however
This one pictured may be offered for sale soon by the owner. Don't know the history on it...
My 783 runs and pulls extremely well, but getting it that way was a major job. Out of the box, it barely ran at all. Once I put some -- well, a lot -- of work into it, it became one of my best-running locomotives. And it required prodigious amounts of break-in time, as well. They probably weren't all like that, but mine sure was.
I've never had a 700E or 773, so I can't comment on those.
The Lionel postwar 773 is my favorite steam engine, and one that is always on my layout. The 1950 and 1964 versions will both pull 25+ postwar 6464 boxcars. The 1950 773 runs slightly smoother, but I think you'll be pleased with either version.
I have not ran my 1950 773 very much, but it was very smooth the times I have ran it. It is geared lower than normal pw steamers IMHO. No complaints from me. Bought the original set, track and ZW from the original owner. It had little use. I paid dearly for it, but it was the only one I ever found back when I was buying trains.
I would test it first, but if it's I good shape I would get it. They're not as hard to find as they once were.
The 773 we had was a 60s model, nothing binding in the worm just real short on power, for sure a short stack, knowing what I know now I am sure it could be improved. It always acted lazy, like the commutator on the armature needed rotated to advance the timing. As a side note it was purchased for $75, because previous owner was not happy with it, so we knew going in. A Z transformer really helped things.
I have both the 1950 and 1966 versions of the 773 and I am pleased with both of them. They both are smooth runners and look great pulling four Lionel Madison/Irvington cars with no problem whatsoever . That's about all I have them haul as far as passenger consists goes because at the time they were produced that's what they were always pictured pulling. I am content with that. However, both pull about ten modern freight cars quite easily and I am content with that as well. I am glad I bought and have kept both of them. I also have the 785 and although I love its looks it doesn't run as smoothly or pull as well my 773s.
They are power hungry pigs. The best running Hudson ever is the Vision Line Hudson. The early Lionel Hudsons are pretty as can be but it ends there.
There was an article in one of the two mags about 15 or so years ago about the 783 and its problem with "thrust washers" or some such. Its problems could be fixed if you knew how and ran much better. Probably worth finding the article if you get one.
I still have my 1950 773 that was a gift from a family friend as a child. I also have two of the 783's. They were bought used and very cheap. They hardly ran at all until all the old lubricant and grease was cleaned out. They run fine now,but needed a long break in time to loosen up (About 40 hours of running). I removed all the old SOS electronics from them and added a air whistle as well as prewar 6 wheel/box couplers to pull prewar 2800 freight cars. I also have the 1-700E which has been modified the same way. It pulls 3-4 Madison coaches with ease. I had most of the MTH and Lionel modern scale Hudson's - (mostly) great runners when they worked,but nothing but anguish and frustration when they didn't - All have been sold off now.
I have a 785 and the 700e remake from 1991. The 700e has a quieter e unit but both pull and run very well - six pullmans or aluminum cars without an issue. The 785 needed a lot of break in but now has hundreds of hours of use. No issues with either.
I bought a 773 about a year and a half ago. It had been on my "wish list" for quite a while. Great condition and I got it (a 1950 version) for about 1/2 what they are currently listing for on the Bay. So, I was very pleased with it. I immediately did a "Super Tune" on it (see JustTrains.com) as well as replacing the brushes, springs, lube, clean etc. It ran very well after that, albeit at much slower top end speed than my other PW steamers and at much higher voltages. Lionel's guide.......12-20V is accurate for it. Recently, I found a High Stack motor for it and swapped it in. The speed didn't really change (that's an intentional gearing issue), but it does seem to be a stronger puller. In addition I decided to replace the worm cover. The original has 2 magnets on it. You can buy a ready made one......very expensive......or do what I did........ordered a cover and the 3 magnets and made my own. I have to say, though, I don't know if there's a measurable difference in the magnetraction strength. But it can't hurt and it's fun to tinker with. So, now it runs about a good as it will ever run. I do have a drawbar pull test track, but I can't seem to get an accurate measurement on it. But when I put a736 in front of a fairly long consist (for my layout), the 36 will spin it's wheels before it starts to pull the load. The 73 won't unless I floor it. So, from my subjective measurement and observations, I'd put it's pulling power somewhere between the 736 and my PW F3s (although the Fs are much stronger).
Bottom line, then.......if you can find one for a good price, it's a beauty and huge. And it's tender is as good as it gets (for PW).
Roger
P.S. The original motor (which runs flawlessly) is sitting on my workbench. If anyone needs to replace their 773 motor, you can email me (in my profile) and we'll work something out as I have no use for it now.
Williams made a CAN motored 773. You will love the way that runs. FANTASTIC.
Here's a photo of my Williams 773, a solid performer. A great runner for the price.
Frank
That Williams model is certainly handsome. The steel-rimmed drivers really add to the look as compared to the original 773 which still retains its special appeal for what it is.
Williams locomotives are almost always an appealing alternative for operators who like the look and feel of postwar but don't see the value proposition of paying top dollar for clean, original postwar Lionel equipment. the can motor also offers smooth quiet operation. If I didn't have the Hudsons I already have, and were in the market today looking for a conventional, traditional Hudson to operate, I would strongly favor the Williams model. I think the only potential downside is that the smoke output on some Williams steamers is not great (although it is very strong on my 4-6-0) but the smoke output on the postwar variations is not up to fan-driven standards either.
My K-Line Hudson looks better than any.
Above:
"They are power hungry pigs...The early Lionel Hudsons are pretty as can be but it ends there."
"Williams made a CAN motored 773. You will love the way that runs. FANTASTIC."
No. And No.
- I do mostly can-motor stuff, but 2 of my best-running locos are both Lionel AC Hudsons. And I'm fiddling with a third for a detailing project. Not as "precise" as modern DC units, but geared well enough that the lack of cruise is less noticeable tahn some cruise-less modern locos. And, speaking of which:
- the Williams Lionel-scale-Hudson-clone was so poor as a runner that I had to add ERR Cruise Commander to make it useable. Not that I minded - I wanted to, anyway - but the gearing is these (like most Williams die-cast steam; their brass was great) is so Whee-Zoom!! that I was about to sell it.
But - after the ERR installation and a detailing job, I came to like it.
Photo of the upgraded - and now pretty fair runner - Williams, with added detail:
Ray Lombardo posted:Williams locomotives are almost always an appealing alternative for operators who like the look and feel of postwar but don't see the value proposition of paying top dollar for clean, original postwar Lionel equipment. the can motor also offers smooth quiet operation. If I didn't have the Hudsons I already have, and were in the market today looking for a conventional, traditional Hudson to operate, I would strongly favor the Williams model. I think the only potential downside is that the smoke output on some Williams steamers is not great (although it is very strong on my 4-6-0) but the smoke output on the postwar variations is not up to fan-driven standards either.
Hello Ray
What you said is very true !! I am one of those postwar train buffs that feels the same way too. I purchased Williams F-3's ABA set rather to pay high prices for the postwar F-3's in the like new condition or better. I am pretty happy with the Williams F-3's. My next purchase (probably) is the Williams 681 turbine when the price is right that is. I wanted is the postwar Lionel 15 inch aluminum passenger cars but didn't want the hassle to have to repaint them to make them look nice again so instead, purchased the Williams 15 inch aluminum passenger car sets and I am pretty happy with them. The postwar aluminum cars is found in 1966 lionel catalog, set # 12780 F-3's and 4 aluminum cars is what I wanted for long time ! The Williams aluminum passenger cars and F-3's are really NICE !!! I installed the LED bayonet base bulbs and changed the roller pick wires with super flex wires on the aluminum cars and has made me even more happy with them. I love "postwar" style trains as that is what I grew up with in 60's and Williams fills my needs. I am old school I guess and love 60's Mopars but could never afford one but still want one . I am still sad that I don't have the 1967 Dodge Coronet R/T in tri-black, 440 magnum, 727 automatic , Dana 60 , after market A/C , power steering, dog dish hub caps and I be the happiest woman on earth. SIGH !!!!
And the word of the Lord came to me , saying "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy out of their own heart, 'Hear the word of the Lord!" Ezekiel 13:1-2 NKJV (New King James Version)
Tiffany
We don't ask a lot of the 773 we have in the studio, just that it pulls three Irvington cars. So there's no problem there.
I have a 783 and have been told the noisy motor is from the armature, where the commutator segments are seated upon much thinner plastic.
Some people like a Ford and some like a Dodge. I will take the Williams 773 any day over any later AC motored 773. I know a small bit about good running locomotives. Run what you like and buy what you like. Bottom line, run the trains and have fun. I am a certified MTH tech and a Certified Lionel tech. I do not bleed orange or purple. For myself, I want what runs the best. Whatever company makes a better mouse trap, that is the one I want.
OK, some great information and opinions on the running/pulling power of different 773 style Hudsons. Now, what do you folks say on the the proper curve radius? I know the PW version will work with 31" curves, and I believe the Williams will too, but what curve radius does it start to look good on? My layout has an outer loop with a couple of 42" curves, but i may be able to alter to 54" if it makes sense as I do intend to be running one of the fore mentioned Hudsons soon.
Tim
As indicated in my post earlier in the thread, I've "upgraded" my 1950 773 by swapping out the motor with a High Stack version and also made a 3 magnet worm cover plate to increase the magnetraction. Tonight, I decided to do another modification. The magnetraction on this engine is not very strong (I think it is mainly the result of the more primitive placement of the magnets back then). In any case, after working on it for so long, I realized that there was room above the armature shaft and worm cover (and the underside of the shell). So, I made a little shelf in there (easily removed if I don't like it) and Gooped about 3/4 lb of lead ingots onto it. The weight is over mainly the last two pair of wheels. Nice! Very little wheel slip (if any) when accelerating ahead of a heavy consist.
Roger
D500 posted:Above:
"They are power hungry pigs...The early Lionel Hudsons are pretty as can be but it ends there."
"Williams made a CAN motored 773. You will love the way that runs. FANTASTIC."
No. And No.
- I do mostly can-motor stuff, but 2 of my best-running locos are both Lionel AC Hudsons. And I'm fiddling with a third for a detailing project. Not as "precise" as modern DC units, but geared well enough that the lack of cruise is less noticeable tahn some cruise-less modern locos. And, speaking of which:
- the Williams Lionel-scale-Hudson-clone was so poor as a runner that I had to add ERR Cruise Commander to make it useable. Not that I minded - I wanted to, anyway - but the gearing is these (like most Williams die-cast steam; their brass was great) is so Whee-Zoom!! that I was about to sell it.
But - after the ERR installation and a detailing job, I came to like it.
Photo of the upgraded - and now pretty fair runner - Williams, with added detail:
I agree that the Williams diecast scale Hudson really needs a Cruise Commander to tame it's 200MPH gearing. But tame it, it does.
I was very fortunate to get a Williams diecast Hudson into the final rounds of testing when the Cruise Commander was being developed. I offered the loco up as the greatest challenge the Cruise Commander would ever need to handle.
We operators are all lucky that it worked out so well.
Anyway, if you buy one of these locos, it might be wise to add in the cost of a Cruise Commander, too.
RoyBoy, we have different standards. First off, that is one great looking locomotive you did up. I find the Williams to be a great runner. Of course ERR will make anything run better. I have done many of these engines up to DCS and now the world is open to them for any sound set you may desire. No extra sound boards needed. One stop shopping with the DCS gives you everything. Living in the Charles Ro area, many of my friends have purchased these locomotives as Charlie sells them.
Not a problem to figure the ERR into your cost as these engines are priced right.
I have a diecast Williams Junior Hudson and don't like it at all. It runs way too fast. It has a very steep Voltage-to-Speed curve, meaning that just a little voltage makes it run very fast. The Williams diesels are a little on the fast side too, but they are manageable. I have several of them and like them all. I have a 786 and it runs well, although I don't run it very often.
Please explain what a Williams Junior Hudson is. Can you put up an item number?
I don't know I would consider any single motor Lionel engine a "power hog", now my 2333 F3s are most certainly power hogs! I have owned both a postwar 773, MPC era 785 grey hudson and LTI 1-700e. The later two pulled ok for tall driver engines and NO magnatraction. The 773 would outpull them both with a healthy ZW or Z transformer to back it up. Prewar hudsons can have warped frames from zinc pest, and this will make them barely pull thier own tenders. Tall wheeled Hudsons in any scale are not the best pullers unless very heavily ballested. If you want to pull the paint off the walls, put a pair of NYC 2333/43 F3's on the head end of train! Everybody has thier favorite hudsons, mine are the ones produced in the USA. Mike
I am fortunate to own the Vision line hudson. I am a bell and whistle guy and that has them all. Something about a big engine with no sounds and bad smoke that does not do it for me. The Vision Line Hudson does it all.
The older Hudson does have a new lease on life with the more powerful transformers of today. The older Hudson does run good with the ZW-L and Z4000 transformers.
Marty Fitzhenry,
A junior Hudson is a 4-6-4 that is built small enough for 027 curves. It is sometimes called a baby Hudson. Lionel post war numbers would be 2046, 2055 etc. Williams made a model of it also. Mine is numbered 5443. I ran it for 55 minutes last night. It seemed to do alright except that it got extremely hot, hot enough to burn my hands it I tried to lift it off the track. I have never had an engine, including several other Williams products, that do this.
George
tncentrr posted:Marty Fitzhenry,
A junior Hudson is a 4-6-4 that is built small enough for 027 curves. It is sometimes called a baby Hudson. Lionel post war numbers would be 2046, 2055 etc. Williams made a model of it also. Mine is numbered 5443. I ran it for 55 minutes last night. It seemed to do alright except that it got extremely hot, hot enough to burn my hands it I tried to lift it off the track. I have never had an engine, including several other Williams products, that do this.
George
It's not uncommon for the Williams baby Hudson (sometimes called the O-27 Hudson, or the 2056 Hudson) to get hot. The gear ratio is way too tall for the little motor inside of it. At least the scale Hudson has a big motor so it can handle doing some work. Interestingly, the Williams copy of the Lionel Berkshire does not seem to have the overheating problem. Maybe it has a different gear box, or maybe the smaller drive wheels gives the motor a better gear ratio.
Thank you. I have never seen a Williams baby hudson. Does anyone have an item number? I have had a large number of Williams Hudsons that were scale. Again, an item number would be great. Thank you.
Marty,
There's one currently listed on the "Bay"
Roger
Thanks for the info guys. I confirmed what you guys stated. Whenever in doubt about anything, I always go the the source of information. In this case I called my friend at WBB Larry Harrington and he confirmed that in 2005 Williams did do a knock off of the old Lionel 2046. I would not have looked at that and it passed me by. Thanks for the good information guys. If Williams made that engine, you can count on it being a good runner. Larry said they made it in many road names. Anyone got a pix, I would like to see it.
Thanks again
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Anyone got a pix, I would like to see it.
Thanks again
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