Williams brass locomotives

NYC Hudson, 1984 and 1995
NYC Dreyfuss Hudson, 1984 and 1995
B&O 4-6-2 Pacific, 1984
Pennsy K4 4-6-2, 1986-87
Modern K4 4-6-2 1989
USRA 4-6-2 1989 (seven road names)
Southern Ps-4 4-6-2, 1989
Camelback 4-6-0, 1990
Pennsy L1 2-8-2, 1987
USRA 2-8-2 1990 (five road names)
PRR B6 0-6-0, 1987
Pennsy 4-4-2, 1989
SP GS4 4-8-4, 1989
PRR 4-4-4-4, 1992 (several variations in paint)
N&W J-class 4-8-4, 1990
NYC 4-8-4, 1990
UP 4-6-6-4, 1987-88 and 1995
UP 4-8-8-4, 1989 and 1995
SP Cab-Forward 4-8-8-2, 1990
N&W 2-6-6-4, 1996
PRR S2 Turbine 1991
Streamlined Pennsy K4 1995
Baldwin Shark diesel, 1985

I've got 2 of the USRA 2-8-2 and 2 of the USRA 4-6-2...really enjoy running them.  HUGE drivers on the Pacifics.

Bob Delbridge posted:

I've got 2 of the USRA 2-8-2 and 2 of the USRA 4-6-2...really enjoy running them.  HUGE drivers on the Pacifics.

Just as an aside, and I am sure that many know this, but only the Erie RR (class K-5, I think) was assigned USRA Heavy Pacifics in the original WWI era, and the Wms brass 4-6-2 is a USRA Heavy. Really handsome.

A good, almost great, model of it. The Heavy wound up being a basis for other big 4-6-2's over the years. The model that MTH calls a "USRA Heavy" actually looks more like the USRA Light.

The Southern Ps-4's have been described as a USRA Heavy boiler on the USRA Light Pacific running gear. The Light had smaller drivers (more tractive effort) which were better-suited to the hilly profile over which the Ps4's ran, but it still had the basic Heavy's big boiler.

Like that Wms brass - don't tell anyone - the prices will go up.

Williams never completed the PRR S2 turbine.  3rd Rail picked up the project and completed it.

Jan

I have always felt the the J and Niagara were some of the smoothest running locos that I ever ran. 

I've got two of the early K4's, The L1, and the later streamlined K4 and love them all. Waiting for an E6 to drop into my lap now.

After 1986 or so, these Williams Crown Edition trains were being made in South Korea by Samhongsa.  They did some things very right, starting with the gear ratio.  No need for gimmicks, they are geared for realistic speeds.  No, they won't go 200 scale mph, but they will run at scale speeds without resorting to gimmicky speed control.  The chassis has a "bottom plate," so the wheels, axles, and gearbox are all individually replaceable, without having to use a wheel puller, or an arbor press to reinstall them.  The motors (at least until 1989 or so) were current hogs.  But... at least Williams didn't press the worm gear onto the motor shaft.  So upgrading to a better quality Pittman or Globe motor is within the skill of most tinkerers.

I don't like the "feel" of brass, and I don't like the fact that Williams used rubber tires on most of the flanged wheel axles.  But our favorite purveyors of die cast steam locos could learn a few things from Williams' basic designs.

NYC class "A" 2-6-6-4 

As I recall, Williams and Right of Way Industries largely led the charge into scale 3-Rail locomotives in the late 1980's. I believe Richard Kughn and LTI then joined the fray with some scale-sized locomotives, including the Reading T-1. As I also recall, I believe that some of the locomotives were manufactured in conjunction with Mike Wolf, who I believe had worked with Jerry Williams of Williams Trains.

As Readingfan meticulously demonstrates, and, as noted in the O.P., the list of Williams brass is quite extensive.

I do have the Williams GS-4, and the N&W "J".  Particularly for the era, IMHO Williams made some beautiful brass, although generally not as detailed as many current offerings from the major manufacturers.  Some hobbyists did object though to the gloss finish on some of the locos.

Here's a link to 2013 and 2016 threads.

https://ogrforum.com/...illiams-brass?page=1

https://ogrforum.com/...-edition-locomotives

Jan

I have 5 Williams steamers and like them all, so much that 2 of them will have DCS/PS3 upgrades in them (thanks gunrunnerjohn!). 

I like my trains shiny, so for me, the finish on the Williams locos (especially my Niagara and Daylight) is perfect, even though maybe not prototypical. 

The one thing I don't like about them is the traction tires. I've searched high and low, and cannot find replacement tires that will fit.  I've tried MTH and Lionel tires, and they are too wide and too thick.

John

Weaver brass also a good value.   M1a, H10, L1s. pictured.  

H10,  two cab numbers. 

M1a/b, ?? Weaver's first brass model??

L1s Mikado

Edit Add.  Weaver G5 

Also a K4 Pennsy brass offering, Not part of my collection.  

Both seem fairly accurate and quite rugged.

I have 2-rail versions of the J, the small Mikado, the B6sb, the T1, the S2, and the Weaver GS-2.  All are winners.

I re-motored the J,  and now it is way too slow.  I thought the original motor was noisy - not so; the flywheel was out of balance.  Always check the flywheel first on noisy models.

Photo of my Williams brass Camelback which I acquired on E-bay new ( never run ) for $178.00  which I consider a fine deal.   I may eventually weather it but for now the shinny finish is ok with me. 

I actually like the shiny finish too. It's enjoyable to have something that is hand made, and, many of them also make for stunning displays given their size and decoration.  Clearly trend setters in the hobby.

In 1986-87 Williams imported 2 versions of the PRR K4s.  one with the traditional as built look, and the other streamlined to follow the design PRR applied to 4 of it's K4's (1120, 2665, 3778, 5338).  The locomotive number on the Williams streamlined model was 1120.  Note that this is a completely different streamline style than on PRR K4s 3768, (sometimes referred to as torpedo styling). Weaver imported a brass model of 3768 also made by Samhongsa.

Trussman posted:

NYC class "A" 2-6-6-4 

 

I have the N&W version.....it is one of my best locomotives. It's huge and well detailed.  A monster of a loco!!! 

Dad has the Williams B6. We have the Weaver H10 with QSI sound. I have the Weaver G5 and my uncle has the Williams streamlined K4. All great locomotives. 

The early LTI scale engines were contracted from Mike Wolf.  They were produced in Korea.

The list includes the following: Reading T1, Pennsy Steam Turbine, NYC Mohawk, Chessie Steam Special, Southern Mikado #4501, D&RG PA-1AA, Shay, GG1, MU Cars and dummy.  I think that is about it.  After that the relationship fell apart.  There is also the probability that by that time LTI was able to develop its own manufacturing sources.  I purchased most of them thinking that Lionel after years of being lost in the wilderness had again found its way.  MY mistake.

Actually, the Weaver Brass engines came about through the Wolf/Samhongsa relationship.

Interesting history lesson from 25+ years ago.  

BlueComet400 posted:

I have 5 Williams steamers and like them all, so much that 2 of them will have DCS/PS3 upgrades in them (thanks gunrunnerjohn!). 

I like my trains shiny, so for me, the finish on the Williams locos (especially my Niagara and Daylight) is perfect, even though maybe not prototypical. 

The one thing I don't like about them is the traction tires. I've searched high and low, and cannot find replacement tires that will fit.  I've tried MTH and Lionel tires, and they are too wide and too thick.

John

Try contacting 3rd Rail. They have made both the Niagara and Daylight and their traction tires tend to be quite narrow.

Pete

Here is the streamlined K4 Ed mentioned from 1989 along with the K4 and then the early 5000 Crown edition K4 with a1935 Scalcraft K4. I like K4’s it seems.

Bill DeBrooke posted:

The early LTI scale engines were contracted from Mike Wolf.  They were produced in Korea...Actually, the Weaver Brass engines came about through the Wolf/Samhongsa relationship.

Bill,

Thanks for the nice summary.  As a modest addition, and, if I recall correctly, Samhongsa had first approached Jerry Williams about producing trains, and he passed the contact along to Mike Wolf, and the rest is history.

The ground had been broken, and the market for 0-72 established in very large part through the Williams scale brass and the Right of Way locos. I actually had to do a complete rebuild of my layout to accommodate the large locos, and, other than bending GarGraves (which I did), or using Lionel O Gauge (which I then did to save time given family and work considerations) there were not even a lot of track choices.  LTI, with Mike Wolf,  launched their scale engines and the hobby was changed forever, as you implicitly note in your excellent post.

And, for a while, Williams continued to release the beautiful locos inquired about in the O.P., and detailed in Readingfan's excellent responsive post, and, in the stunning photos that follow.

No one has mentioned the two Masterpiece Hudsons from around 2002. Probably the most detailed pieces Williams offered.

Pete

I have one........

My first Williams brass loco was the Pennsy T1 and since then I have added many of them.  I really like Hudsons so I bought 2 of the Masterpiece non-streamlined and 1 Dreyfus.  They run as good as they look.  I recently added the Greyhound UP Challenger to the fleet and it is as much of a beast as the Class A which I picked up a few years ago.  The Pennsy Pacifics are quite nice, but not as detailed as the Masterpiece engines.  I must like them  however since when I went to count today I discovered I have 4 (2 K4s, 1 streamlined and 1 Torpedo.)  Ron H. over on the 3rs forum did a really nice series on super detailing the Williams Cab Forward which I hope to do to mine to some extent in the future.

Rolland

bob2 posted:

Both seem fairly accurate and quite rugged.

I have 2-rail versions of the J, the small Mikado, the B6sb, the T1, the S2, and the Weaver GS-2.  All are winners.

I re-motored the J,  and now it is way too slow.  I thought the original motor was noisy - not so; the flywheel was out of balance.  Always check the flywheel first on noisy models.

 

My Crown Challenger is so loud that even our grandson slowed it down as he was worrying about it. Anything around 40 MPH and higher, she gets loud. When I was adding PS2, I didn't notice anything odd with the flywheel. Maybe I should look closer?

Engineer-Joe posted:

bob2 posted:

Both seem fairly accurate and quite rugged.

I have 2-rail versions of the J, the small Mikado, the B6sb, the T1, the S2, and the Weaver GS-2.  All are winners.

I re-motored the J,  and now it is way too slow.  I thought the original motor was noisy - not so; the flywheel was out of balance.  Always check the flywheel first on noisy models.

 

My Crown Challenger is so loud that even our grandson slowed it down as he was worrying about it. Anything around 40 MPH and higher, she gets loud. When I was adding PS2, I didn't notice anything odd with the flywheel. Maybe I should look closer?

I have the same issue with mine that I upgraded to TMCC.  I'm guessing it is how the gears are meshing and I've looked and everything looks good, so I'm not going to worry about it until it stops working.  

You can't look at a flywheel and tell that it is out of balance.  Remove it.  If the noise goes away the flywheel is out of balance.

It is the same with the tires on your car - they must be spun on a precision machine to correct balance issues.

If you are not mechanically inclined - the flywheel comes off with a set screw - usually Allen head.  Replace it temporarily with a piece of rubber hose.  I use Toyota #0 hose, but for a test, any auto windshield wiper hose will do.

Norton posted:

BlueComet400 posted:

I have 5 Williams steamers and like them all, so much that 2 of them will have DCS/PS3 upgrades in them (thanks gunrunnerjohn!). 

I like my trains shiny, so for me, the finish on the Williams locos (especially my Niagara and Daylight) is perfect, even though maybe not prototypical. 

The one thing I don't like about them is the traction tires. I've searched high and low, and cannot find replacement tires that will fit.  I've tried MTH and Lionel tires, and they are too wide and too thick.

John

Try contacting 3rd Rail. They have made both the Niagara and Daylight and their traction tires tend to be quite narrow.

Pete

Thanks Pete!! I just sent them an email. Much appreciated!!

John

The most common reason the small flywheels in our locos are out of balance is that the hole is larger than the motor shaft and when the set screw is tightened it locks the flywheel in an out of concentric position. I have managed to use shim brass to hold the flywheel in position when the set screw was tightened.  If this is the case you must get an accurate measurement of the motor shaft and the hole in the flywheel.  Subtract the size of the motor shaft from the diameter of the hole then divide by 2. Now you need a piece of shim stock that thickness. you can use two different thickness shims to come up with the value you need.  Wrap the shim 1/2 perhaps even up to 2/3 way around the shaft and centered on the opposite side of the motor shaft from the set screw   j

Dennis Holler posted:

Here is the streamlined K4 Ed mentioned from 1989 along with the K4 and then the early 5000 Crown edition K4 with a1935 Scalcraft K4. I like K4’s it seems.

 

love the streamlined k4 sharp,,dont know why mth didn't do that one

@Engineer-Joe, Allan... your locos are geared to run at realistic speeds, AND THAT'S A GOOD THING!  If you ever saw a "loco cam" (cab view) video of your train running at 40 mph, you would probably run it slower.  If you must have "toy train" top speeds, most of the MTH Premier steam will do 100+ mph without breaking a sweat.  (They also have flywheels that in my experience are too small to provide much coasting, see below.) 

Personally I wouldn't run your loco without the flywheel.  If you build up a good head of speed with a trailing consist and it suddenly loses power, it'll stop on a dime.  You'll shed tires, break a side rod, or shear off one of the hex screws holding the rods on.  Good luck finding parts for these 30 y.o. low-production beauties!  Rubber tires are evil, flywheels are a good thing!!

Also- your locos are brass.  There's a reason they don't make tubas out of die-cast metal.  Thin wall brass resonates, and any vibration is amplified.  One of my 3rd Rail locos had a noisy drivetrain.  I stuck a sheet of Dynaxorb inside the boiler above the firebox where the flywheel and belt drive are.  That really quieted things down.  In case you're wondering, Dynaxorb is an adhesive-backed sound deadening material used in custom car stereo installations and speaker cabinets.  You can find it online or at some auto stores.  Cut to size, stick it on, enjoy the quiet.

The real solution is to have a local machine shop make you a new, balanced flywheel that has TWO counter-bored set screws.  If they are properly and gradually tightened, the flywheel will be centered on the shaft.  That, plus the Dynaxorb should result in a quiet loco.  Or you could just wait for one of the major manufacturers to build a realistically geared loco in die-cast metal.  The "Scale Revolution" started in the late '80s.  30 years on, I'm still waiting.  Please no gimmicky speed control, give me 30:1 or bust!!

If you are offered a chance to purchase a Williams brass loco from the 1990s make sure you test it.  I purchased a Southern PS4 that was listed as "test run" by the auction house, but that was obviously not the case because when it arrived it didn't run.  I did all sorts of diagnostic tricks and finally took the tender from my Williams PRR E6 and attached it to the locomotive and off it went.  The 20 plus year old E unit in the PS4 tender had failed. Fortunately a friend was able to get a replacement E unit and the PS4 now operates.  Keep in mind that the early brass locos have no whistle or bell, but do have Seuth(sp?) smoke units.  I really like the brass locomotives from Right of Way, Weaver, and Williams and they can be found at very reasonable prices.  Lew

Is there any value in a Williams Brass Baldwin Shark made in 1985?