A comment about the Atlas CZ 3 rail couplers.

I have two additional concerning Atlas' very nice CZ passenger cars & couplers:

1) Too bad they have that big "thumb tack" hanging down from the lobster claw. Is there any way to remove that "thumb tack", or do you just cut it off?

2) Is there any way to mount a Kadee couple & box assembly on that "in-and-out" sliding bracket which holds the lobster claw? The ideal system would be to mount the Kadee couplers to that "in-and-out" bracket, thus the Kadee couplers would couple VERY close and still negoate 072 curves, which I doubt would work well if the Kadees are body mounted.

You’re onto something regarding a truck-mounted Kadee coupler solution for 3RS passenger cars. Don’t be too hard on Pete K., though. He probably wasn’t cool to the idea but, given his lack of an HO frame of reference, just uniformed. Kadee did and does continue to offer Conversion Bolsters Kits for replacing the factory X2F couplers with No.5s on Rivarossi 4 and 6 wheel passenger trucks, item nos. 508 and 505 respectively. Something like this is what’s needed for 3RS passenger cars, but the wide variety of truck and coupler mounting configurations and the small production volumes across product lines probably would make it unattractive to an after-market maker like Kadee. It’s likely going to be up to the car makers to develop conversion bolsters of their own. Time for another 3RS campaign. That ought to start warming Pete's blood.

Crank

Isn't the coupler on the Atlas 2-rail 89' flat a truck mount version of their 2-rail couplers?

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by Eccentric Crank:
You’re onto something regarding a truck-mounted Kadee coupler solution for 3RS passenger cars. Don’t be too hard on Pete K., though. He probably wasn’t cool to the idea but, given his lack of an HO frame of reference, just uniformed. Kadee did and does continue to offer Conversion Bolsters Kits for replacing the factory X2F couplers with No.5s on Rivarossi 4 and 6 wheel passenger trucks, item nos. 508 and 505 respectively. Something like this is what’s needed for 3RS passenger cars, but the wide variety of truck and coupler mounting configurations and the small production volumes across product lines probably would make it unattractive to an after-market maker like Kadee. It’s likely going to be up to the car makers to develop conversion bolsters of their own. Time for another 3RS campaign. That ought to start warming Pete's blood.

Crank

Count me out of this new 3RS revelation. Have you looked at HO lately, specifically the latest crop of 80 ft. plus passenger cars? I don't see any with truck mounted couplers. The Rivarossi conversions worked like crap, as did the truck mounted X2F couplers typical of Tyco, Rivarossi (AHM), and Varney plastic freight cars. The Athearn truck mounted couplers on the 89' auto box cars didn't work worth a crap either, with or without a Kadee.

There is a reason for that. For starters, the lack of a secure mounting platform (the frame) means that the coupler is free to move up and down a considerable distance. Even with the oversize head of a Kadee #5, , and it's many cousins with different shanks, unintended uncouplings can be quite frequent. Reverse moves are especially problematic, particularly with heavy passenger cars. All of the force goes through the coupler into the truck frame, causing the truck to react to one side where the flange locks against the side of the rail. If the force is too great, the force pushes the flange up over the rail, causing a derailment.

Hot, this would be particularly bad on a modular railroad where dips at module ends can be quite frequent from years of handling and storage in varied temperature environments. You are better sticking with the lobster claw, and gluing the things shut (something Sasquatch needs to do on his B&O cars, or convert them to Kadees).

If you want a better option, check out the coupler mounting system on one of the Walthers HO smooth side passenger cars (it is on my Empire Builder cars, can't speak for the latest releases). The coupler box accepts a normal Kadee (comes with a generic equivalent), but is retained in the front by a "shelf" that the pocket bottom rests on, with a pivot point about 5/8" back from the coupler pocket face. As long as the screw that holds the coupler pocket on in the rear is not too tight, the whole assembly can pivot enough to allow sharper curves. This arrangement, while not as rigidly mounted as directly to the frame, is tight enough not to allow for unintentional uncouplings.

I'd be happy if the manufacturers would simply provide a Kadee mounting pad on three rail full length passenger cars (with a shim, just like MTH) like Atlas is evidently doing with the CZ cars. But alas, since we all know how to use a tap and die, that probably won't be forthcoming.

Regards,
GNNPNUT

quote:

Count me out of this new 3RS revelation.

My suggestion was NOT as a 3RS revelation, but as a way to eliminate the Claw on all 3 rail, and as I stated, include the ability to body mount Kadees if desired.

You post some interesting info. I was only into HO for barely a few years around 1960 and the trains were not long enough to experience the problems you mention.

quote:

For starters, the lack of a secure mounting platform (the frame) means that the coupler is free to move up and down a considerable distance.

That would tend to indicate that it isn't worth mounting a Kadee on the sliding bracket on the CZ car. One of the cars I received came with both sliding brackets a bit loose and the "thumb tack" kept shorting out on the 3rd rail. That's when I started the process of installing Kadees, but couldn't find new new box full. I've since found the box but was going to put it off for a bit. Hot Water's questions were similar to things I was thinking about. My problem is that even if I do the conversion, I only have about a forty foot run to test the worthiness of the experiment and the tightest curve I have right now is an 090. My yards will have tighter curves but the mainline won't. Another issue is the sliding bracket. It is flimsy enough that I can see replacing it with a metal bracket with holes that are drilled for the permanent distance desired between cars.

I've adjusted the couplers so the diaphragms barely touch, and the nice thing about the system is that since you don't see down between the cars, you barely see the coupler. My table is basically four feet high and I'm 6'4, so looking down I hardly see the tab either. As is, it isn't that bad, but since my 3rd Rail passenger cars with Kadees seem to operate well, I'll eventually body mount the Kadee's on the CZ cars.

The irony of owning the CZ cars is that I've become more interested in the Exposition Flyer more than the CZ. From what I've read lately, it was a very interesting train.

When my car arrived, the claw was sagging due to a loose screw on the top side of the uncoupling tab. Once I slid the the coupler out, I took out the screw holding the spring on and removed the uncoupler tab. Hit the top side with a bench grinder and pulled the 'thumb tack" right out. Looks much better.

 

Once I get the replacement windows from Atlas, I'll look into converting to Kadees, either body mounting or attaching them directly to the adjustable truck mount, since I'll have to take the car completely apart anyway. It definitely needs some passengers. With a car this nice, who wouldn't want to take a ride in it.

Although, close coupled, and the thumb tack removed, it looks pretty good without the hassle of converting to Kadees.  

it looks pretty good without the hassle of converting to Kadees

 

That was the point I didn't make very well. 

 

With the cars close coupled, you don't see the couplers.  I only notice the tabs when looking for them.  Since Kadees work with claws, it might only be necessary to change the baggage car couplers since you could see them between the baggage car and engine, and the rear coupler on the observation. 

 

However, I will be experimenting to see body mounting Kadees is workable.  Body mounted Kadees on my GGD streamlined cars seem to be OK.  The Atlas CZ cars are a bit longer.