A Practical Future for Toy Trains

We probably would fall on our face.😁

Personally,  I am fine with what we have.

I want no part of that.  Why O gauge does not have a standard operating system like H O does never made any sense to me.

I try not to throw empty praise superlatives around, however, that the most stupid, idiotic, cockamammie idea I think that I have ever heard!

So, you want to make it more complicated and more prone to failure?

The answer is simple, go back to conventional or adopt DCC. We are in this mess because we allowed it to get this way by buying into those control systems, which seemed like a great idea at the time.....

Considering that no modern 3 rail system is on the market at the present time.....I'm not holding my breath.....🤣🤣

Uh oh...must be a slow day on the forum again.

Practical?

If you want heads-up display and big TV why bother having a physical object on 3R track.  Suggest you buy Trainz computer simulator, it will require less maintenance, take-up less room and save you tons of money.

Just can't resist.....

Virtual World and Physical World - "Never the Twain (Train?) shall meet".

BTW it is a corny pun, and yes each day as the OP suggested it actually is becoming more intertwined.  Thank God I'm an old man and won't live to see it's full implementation.  I like driving my own car, rather than it taking me for a ride.  Yes I mean multiple senses of "taking me for a ride".

I know HO uses DCC as a standard but from what i read in the nmra magazine you need a degree in programing to get it to function well.  I'm just starting to experiment with bluerail,  it seems a simple easy to use alternative. 

@necrails posted:

I know HO uses DCC as a standard but from what i read in the nmra magazine you need a degree in programing to get it to function well.  I'm just starting to experiment with bluerail,  it seems a simple easy to use alternative.

Programming DCC decoders has become much more user friendly in recent years. It was a bit more complex 10-15 years ago but was not that complicated to do. I figured most of it out with some helpful programming guides, mainly the Soundtraxx Tsunami user guide. I hate programming and computers/technology and generally have little patience for the stuff. The logic used by the DCC decoders is pretty straight forward and for the most part, is the same across the board for all decoder manufacturers.

So, imagine how "simple" DCC was back when TMCC and DCS were first designed.

Hmm...

Anyone got a DeLorean?

---PCJ

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

It appears to me that the current electronic method used to operate our trains is not a well thought out end game.  They are complicated to use, subject to failure and obsolescence.  Why then do we not move to a 'heads up' display method of operation?

This would require many more chips and much more advanced processing than the current technology.  A HUD would make the trains much MORE prone to issues and obsolescence.

My boat was designed in 1914.  I still get more fun out of her than all the guys with their fancy-schmancy foils and high-powered engines.

Jon

Interesting title caught my eye.

"They are complicated to use, subject to failure and obsolescence.  Why then do we not move to a 'heads up' display method of operation?"

I fully agree with the first sentence, but I don't understand what the " heads-up display method of operation" refers to? Is that a diagnostic tool the Air Force uses via sensors with computer logic running diagnostic analysis? MTH's DCS has some diagnostic features, but I have to say staring at a screen and thumbing through selections via multiple buttons is not my idea of fun.

It is an interesting idea (practical, no, but interesting). Heads up Displays or HUDS have been used on aircraft for a while and has moved even into some cars. Basically it allows projecting an image of various displays on the dashboard up so the pilot doesn't have to look down (these days it is built into the helmets they wear I believe, in the visor). 

Not sure a HUD would do much with our trains, I think the technology of using eye movements to set throttle speed or flip a switch and the like is something a)would be pretty expensive to implement and b)I don't think too many people would enjoy it. I have seen some layouts (usually ho) where the guy literally built a mock up of the cab of an engine, that had controls mapped somehow to controlling engines on the layout, and they had a 'front window' monitor that fed the view from the engine they were controlling (MRR has had some things like this in the past). Obviously these are guys with a lot of space, big layouts and the like.

Honestly, not reason for it, given the size of even the larger layouts here, can't see that being much of an advantage.

I don't think Legacy stuff is complicated or prone to failure. Lionel has also gone to great lengths to make sure I can still run the stuff I have going back to 1947. I think many doom-n-gloom type people just love to dream of their trains breaking or whatever so they can play victim

Anyway, a HUD that gives me an engineer point of view? Can I wear gloves and grab virtual controls and shovel virtual coal? This would be AWESOME! I think this type of thinking is the beginning of that kind of product coming to the market in a few decades. I actually think this could come about sooner to be honest. Smartphones are communicating with the CAB3; goggles and gloves can connect to smartphones. I think you might have something here! Maybe it's already in the works and we don't know.

But if you are Legacy averse, I still think you could connect the goggles and gloves to a PC running JMRI. I just don't know how much data can be communicated over DCC, Legacy, Bluerail, or DCS. If DCC can't carry that much data, then we have now come full circle as a new system would be needed.

What an interesting observation! I joined this part of the model rail hobby many years ago because the conventional setup was so easy for me to understand (compared to my experience in the nascent N gauge side of things). These days, I am more impressed with what we can do with the Lionchief level of train control (as compared with the more sophisticated and complicated control schemes).

I enjoy model railroading.  This sounds more like a video game.  No thanks.

I'd just be happy if the near future brought DCC and all of its standardization, interchangeability, cost competitiveness, availability, upgradeability, etc., etc., blah, blah to this corner of the hobby...at last.

Better yet, above with 'Dead Rail'...on-board battery power...two non-powered rails rendering regular track cleaning (and the back-breaking, butt-busting, joint-jarring under-the-table track wiring) for optimizing point-contact power transfer obsolete.

I digress, though.

My vote?

FWIW.

KD

the future is dead rail!  and it is hear

I appears to me that the currently evolving operating systems are designed for older guys who have trouble making big leaps from a technology perspective.

It is difficult for me to see that the current thread of development will attract a hoard of younger players into the hobby.

I agree in principal with the 'dead rail' comment.  While it is not an end all solution, it would help in some areas.

I’d be happy with windows and MacOS versions of the phone apps. I’d also like to see different skins you can download based on the type of locomotive you are running. MTH especially should make it’s app open source and let the community do all of the work for them.

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

I appears to me that the currently evolving operating systems are designed for older guys who have trouble making big leaps from a technology perspective.

It is difficult for me to see that the current thread of development will attract a hoard of younger players into the hobby.

I agree in principal with the 'dead rail' comment.  While it is not an end all solution, it would help in some areas.

I'm 47 I guess that makes me an older guy. Lol

I could see some sort of Virtual or Augmented reality/feel like you are on board driving idea being an interesting but rather expensive blip of fun for some (like the Railscope trains in the past I suppose) as the customer would have to have a VR headset that was compatible with the system.  I am somewhat surprised Lionel hasn't brought out some sort of augmented reality app stuff like some video games I think have done so that kids could see themselves board/deboard trains or walk thru the towns.  Maybe they have and I missed it.

I personally would find the above interesting enough to try at a show or a friends house but not buy for myself. Toy trains for me are one of the ways to escape all the excessive virtual/digital/screen time most of us have to deal with to live/make money these days. I don't even like the idea of using my phone for a remote. Give me physical buttons, dials etc. I don't care if it costs a bit extra.

Is it a hobby or a video game?. Or is a video game still a hobby?

IS THIS HOBBY a video game?

I USE 3D computer modeling programs to print and make 3D models. Is that a 3D display. Or do I need to add glasses?

I posted earlier, but have been pondering this more.

I am going to start this post like any Old Man Should.

"When I was a kid"...video games were just in their infancy.  Actually was in High School at the time "Pong" Commercial Video Machines were being brought into the Bowling Alleys next to the Pinball Machines.  I teased my friends for wasting their Quarters to play such a stupid game, instead of Standing at the Pinball Machine.  We also had Foosball and Air Hockey available to play.

Anyhow...fast forward 50 years.  The video games and current simulation programs are a wee bit more engaging than Pong was.  However I always have been a Pinball Guy.  BTW, I really dislike the Pinball Machines that came into vogue in the 1980's, that use computer technology.  To me "REAL" Pinball Machines are Purely Electro-Mechanical Machines.  The crazy thing is young people have started playing Pinball.  "Who woulda thunk",  (maybe tied into the resurgence of Vinyl (Records)).  I don't know.

Anyhow, PLEASE let's leave well enough alone with our Toy Trains and Computer Train Simulators and not try to combine them somehow.

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

It is difficult for me to see that the current thread of development will attract a hoard of younger players into the hobby.

IMO. Tying trains to some other interest does not make a hobbyist/model railroader.

This is what I find odd even with this app based control stuff. Themed train sets. Or anything else.

Thinking one can be baited into the hobby by associating some other area of actual interest. This makes for "temporary" newcomers at best. Once they realize ,the train still goes in a circle, just like they did 120 years ago.

I knew I liked model trains when I was 5, because they were model trains. I still liked them when I was 10, 20...and today...because they are model trains, not Disney characters, or some vr control magic device.....or whatever.

If you paint a set of golf clubs blue and orange and put a Lionel logo on each one. I guarantee I still won't like golf.😉

Personally, I'm just waiting until the price of full-size simulators, like the one below, comes down to where the average hobbyist can afford one and putting one my basement, so I can integrate and run my Legacy/LCS based layout directly from it; like a real conductor.

The phone is a nice touch. I can call my wife and let her know when I'll be home from a tough day at work.

Hope Dave and Ryan are watching.

@Richie C. posted:

Personally, I'm just waiting until the price of full-size simulators, like the one below, comes down to where the average hobbyist can afford one and putting one my basement, so I can integrate and run my Legacy/LCS based layout directly from it; like a real conductor.

The phone is a nice touch. I can call my wife and let her know when I'll be home from a tough day at work.

Hope Dave and Ryan are watching.

But for Steam

@Dave Koehler posted:

the future is dead rail!  and it is hear

Well, "here", actually - but the idea of removing the "electric" (as in powered track) from electric trains just seems so appealing. Of course, I hate batteries (Big Battery will control the world within 10 years). There is plenty of room in medium to larger locomotives for a battery power source. And I see no reason that a TMCC-like, simple (to the user) command system, that expects DC and not AC,  would not work on it. That's an extremely "broad stroke" sentence, but not an absurd one.

@D500 posted:

Well, "here", actually - but the idea of removing the "electric" (as in powered track) from electric trains just seems so appealing. Of course, I hate batteries (Big Battery will control the world within 10 years). There is plenty of room in medium to larger locomotives for a battery power source. And I see no reason that a TMCC-like, simple (to the user) command system, that expects DC and not AC,  would not work on it. That's an extremely "broad stroke" sentence, but not an absurd one.

It already is made by Lionel, it is called Lionchief.  It will operate off batteries instead of 3R if you want it to.

@MainLine Steam posted:

It already is made by Lionel, it is called Lionchief.  It will operate off batteries instead of 3R if you want it to.

Well, I didn't know. I know little about Lionchief. Sounds like the right way to go in the larger sense.

When I was a kid, Cokes were a nickel and hamburgers were twenty cents.  The McDonalds still owned the farm and Amazon was a river.

The Toy Train hobby has always evolved and will continue to do so.  All you really have to do is go back thirty years and project that rate of change plus probably 50% and you will know where the hobby will be.  For those that are still around enjoying your $10 Cokes and $50 hamburgers don't forget to check the next Lionel catalog for that $30,000 engine you have been waiting for.

The Future is seldom practical but always interesting.

I spent a career in electronics used in communication, navigation, and radar, the stuff in the aircraft and the stuff on the ground, from the days of tube equipment to the latest uProc based gear.  What was done with engineering, morphed into what could be programmed.  Things as simple as a one tube circuit with 5 components to make an oscillator, changed in to a computer and programming that needed a computer to talk to it to tell it to change frequency.  The new technology made it all reliable, smaller, less power required, but they also seem to go obsolete quicker because components become unobtainium.  In my side biz of fixing comm gear, the vast majority of the time, I order NOS parts from Ebay out of China and Taiwan because they are not available newly made, and there is even one piece of gear that is still being made and sold in the US where component parts for repair cannot be sourced from anybody in the US brand new.  What I take away from all this is that simple was better, and in my retirement years my O Gauge runs from a pair of old school ZW's and my HO on DC with an occasional tap on the loco to make it run.  To each his own, but I am happy, and someone please let me now what steam railroads had FM comm gear in their cabs as suggested from the Lionel and MTH steam loco chatter back to the dispatcher?   I worked on RR Motracs at one time out of GP7's and 9's, but never saw one in a steamer.

well lets just hope the , cab chatter is an adoration that Dies out in the future!

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

It is difficult for me to see that the current thread of development will attract a hoard of younger players into the hobby.

Have you seen Youtube lately? There are almost endless model railroading channels (of varying quality, but still). The last two model railroading events (open houses) I attended had ages 8-80. I bet more kids would attend if they had a driver's license. I maintain the hobby is fine and will be fine. Doom and gloom attitudes and massive ego's are a bigger danger to the hobby than good or bad technology.

I still think this augmented reality is a wild idea. It would be so cool to drive through my own model railroad! I really wish I had the background to work on this sort of thing. Lionel could be a leader and give us access to mapping controllers to the app. That would be a start and I don't think it would be very expensive for them to do.

A guy I know at DARPA is convinced that model trains as solid models will vanish within most of our lifetimes and in the future, you'll have an open table area and flip a switch, and hologram pops up, all complete with steam and smoke, and even people walking and driving around.

To answer the question on Practical Future for Toy Trains, I will take the "Toy Trains" to be post war conventional controlled Toy trains.

I say the future is bright for Toy Trains.  Post war conventional controlled Toy trains are not in a growth mode which is fine considering hardly any new such trains are produced or sold.  But post war conventional controlled Toy trains are perhaps the only inexpensive way to enjoy Toy trains today.  They are easy to find used and simpler to understand, build and operate than newer scale like DCC or other wireless walk around control systems.  They are the ideal way for one to get into O gauge model trains for a novice and those that want to touch a toe into the model train waters and not risk a thousands of dollars.  If model trains are not for the beginner, he can recover most of money spent on the used post war Toy trains.

Charlie

And in the 70s we were going into another ice age, we we going to have cheap and safe nuclear energy, nuclear powered airplanes and on and on.  No one foresaw computers, the internet or streaming video let alone all the digital device we have today. Arguably Dick Tracy had the first portable phone, but even at that the idea of its potential was unimagined. We all like to predict the future,  How about just letting it happen. 50 years from now few in this forum are going to be around to care.

So ... 50 years from now we will all have Star Trek like replicators. We will make the trains, use them for a while and stick them back into the replicator. No boxes to store, no inventory to manage, no worries about leaving our stuff to future generations to deal with.  Best of all no negotiating with the CEO for needed space for an expansion.