A Question for Steam Locomotive Enthusiasts who considered Lionel's Steamers in the 2016 Signature Catalog...

I'm in 'wait and see' mode until I actually see one and determine if it has whitewalls or just stainless steel looking wheel treatment as it's hard to tell from the images. It will help out my budget tremendously if it has whitewalls but I would rather have the problem of fitting it in.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

About 5 years ago, Lionel produced a few steam locomotives like the Milwaukee Road S3 ($995 MSRP) and Pennsy 2-10-4 ($1300 MSRP) with steam-chest "cylinder steam effects", which I recently saw on video.  And this looked like a really cool effect.

Fast-Forward to 2016... and I don't see this feature implemented all that much anymore.  OK... I guess the VisionLine Challenger and VisionLine Big Boy had dynamo and/or blow-down effects, but that's different.  Lionel featured an Allegheny in the company's 2016 Signature Catalog... and if I'm not mistaken, that locomotive has NONE of these enhanced steam-effects (aside from whistle-steam).

Could be that they had so many complaints about that "cylinder steam effects" feature, that the stopped installing it. Besides, it would probably be VERY difficult to install that feature on articulated steam locomotives, what with all the flexibility involved on the front engine. 

Any reason why Lionel isn't including more of these cool effect on its higher end locomotives given the fact that they're now pushing $1400+ (street-price) for non-articulated steamers, and $1800+ (street-price) for articulated steamers like the Allegheny? 

Would more folks have ordered the Allegheny if it included ALL of these steam effects at VisionLine Big Boy prices?  I might even have ordered an Allegheny if it included just the steam-chest "cylinder steam effects" at the current price-point.  But without any added steam effects (other than whistle-steam), I passed on the Allegheny.

David

One added comment about that "cylinder steam effects" feature, remember that it does NOT include the accompaning loud "hissing" sounds of escaping steam from the open cylinder cocks while the "smoke" is being emitted. To my knowledge, only MTH has the loud "hissing" sounds of "open cylinder cocks" for the first few revolutions of the drivers. Too bad MTH hasn't tried that "cylinder steam effects" feature to accompany the sounds. 

Dave, these effects of simulated steam are way cool. I think the Allegheny is a fantastic steam locomotive - distinctive and powerful, classy and just plain neat, but its not in a road-name I model - but I would have appreciated additional steam effects in the more recent Reading T1 - that I did pre-order (with considerable consternation given the just shy of $1,400 big-ones price tag). As it was advertised, the only advantage it has over the 2015 Premier T1 is the whistle steam and kinematic drawbar - only time will tell if the extra $300 to $400 was worth it. Hopefully it will deliver neat additional features and a great whistle.

Speaking of MTH, I wonder when their Big Boy will be released - it's supposed to have their first whistle steam effect in O-gauge. I wish they had implemented it on all their Premier Line steamers.

I would have been a player for the Allegheny if Lionel had Offerred the Three Speakers, (2 in the tender, and 1in the Boiler) and The Back Draft Blow Down feature like the Challenger and the VL BB. Plus Legacy.....I had the 6-38081 5.0 version...Its a nice engine.  Good Post...

Wish Lionel would release more locomotives with smoking dynamos.  The VL Challenger pioneered it and it's an awesome visual treat.

I'd rather have the smoking dynamo than any other steam feature.  Whistle steam is cool, but dependent upon where whistle is located, it can be 'drowned' out by main stack smoke.  Smoke is only visible while whistle is blown.  Dynamo smoke, on the other hand, operates all the time.

I didn't order the Allegheny-not my modeling interest. 

I don't know if I am gonna buy it.. I am getting tired of blowing 1700 on steam engines.  

Paul Kallus posted:

...

Speaking of MTH, I wonder when their Big Boy will be released - it's supposed to have their first whistle steam effect in O-gauge. I wish they had implemented it on all their Premier Line steamers.

 

Paul, unless I was dreaming, I recall seeing a video (perhaps in the January 2016 timeframe) of MTH's new Premier Big Boy, and thought the implementation of their whistle-steam was very good.  The MTH Product Locator is now showing "in stock" at several dealers.   As you were saying though, MTH doesn't appear to be implementing whistle-steam on any other Premier loco's yet.  I was particularly disappointed not to see it featured on the Z-6 Challengers in MTH's latest catalog. 

BTW, I've changed the title of my thread to broaden the scope beyond  just folks considering an Allegheny.  You are dead-on thinking that cylinder steam effects would have been a worthwhile feature on Lionel's crop of $1400+ steam locomotives, like the T1, GS-4, UP FEF as well as the more expensive Allegheny.

David

I wanted the Allegheny very much, but the model pictured in the catalog is not correct for the road numbers offered. Late model Alleghenys had the over fire jets shown on the side of the fire box. The JLC version is correct. Also, I am not fond of white walls, but I could live with them if they offered the correct road numbers, and put VL features in this engine for 1800 dollars. My VL Challenger has the three speakers and all the smoke effects, and I paid quite a bit less for it. I know costs go up, but they could have listed the features this engine has more accurately. Also, for me, I like legacy engines, but at 1800 dollars they are now in 3rd rail country and they very rarely make mistakes in accuracy.

                                   jG

JGTRAINS posted:

I wanted the Allegheny very much, but the model pictured in the catalog is not correct for the road numbers offered. Late model Alleghenys had the over fire jets shown on the side of the fire box. The JLC version is correct. Also, I am not fond of white walls, but I could live with them if they offered the correct road numbers,

I'm not a fan of the "white walls" either, however it is indeed correct for C&O steam power, especially the 2-8-4s, 4-8-4s and 2-6-6-6s.

and put VL features in this engine for 1800 dollars. My VL Challenger has the three speakers and all the smoke effects, and I paid quite a bit less for it. I know costs go up, but they could have listed the features this engine has more accurately. Also, for me, I like legacy engines, but at 1800 dollars they are now in 3rd rail country and they very rarely make mistakes in accuracy.

                                   jG

David,

    MTH had a Big Boy at the October 2015 York show. While talking to the MTH representative I asked when we could expect to see steam whistle smoke effects on other Premire engines. He said the issue was size of the smoke unit and he did not expect it to be available in smaller steam engines. The smoke on the BB worked well but it is hard to believe it cannot be put in other large articulated engine, northerns, mountains etc.

     As far as Legacy engines the steam whistle is my favorite and a prerequisite on anything larger than small steam, ten wheelers, moguls and switchers.

JohnB

For me, I'd like to see the smoke systems be more "goof proof" before moving on to more effects. I over filled a Lionel Legacy with smoke fluid. I made quite a mess, but escaped without any damage. Now, I have an MTH A-B-A set that's not smoking. I think, thought, can't remember if, I put smoke fluid into it. Now, I have the same problem, add more fluid and risk another mess, or leave the smoke turned on until it starts smoking and risk burning out the smoke unit. I'm almost sure that it is dry, but I'm afraid of flooding the smoke chamber again. The method of adding 20 drops or whatever is ridiculous. I can't even see the drops!

Paul Kallus posted:

Dave, these effects of simulated steam are way cool. I think the Allegheny is a fantastic steam locomotive - distinctive and powerful, classy and just plain neat, but its not in a road-name I model - but I would have appreciated additional steam effects in the more recent Reading T1 - that I did pre-order (with considerable consternation given the just shy of $1,400 big-ones price tag). As it was advertised, the only advantage it has over the 2015 Premier T1 is the whistle steam and kinematic drawbar - only time will tell if the extra $300 to $400 was worth it. Hopefully it will deliver neat additional features and a great whistle.

Speaking of MTH, I wonder when their Big Boy will be released - it's supposed to have their first whistle steam effect in O-gauge. I wish they had implemented it on all their Premier Line steamers.

 

Paul if you look on youtube at ericstrains videos, he has a video of the MTH Big Boy being ran on his dealer's testing track. It was being ran using the wifi. Not sure if this is the video David was referring to.

Bill 

Now that you mention it Rocky Mountaineer these toys are way overpriced.  Thanks for pointing that out for the one thousandth time!  Because of your astute market observation I am going to stop buying Lionel products.  Will you join me in my protest?  You are going to have to stop buying overpriced Lionel products so you can continue purchase $300 RPO cars that are not overpriced.

Hot Water posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

About 5 years ago, Lionel produced a few steam locomotives like the Milwaukee Road S3 ($995 MSRP) and Pennsy 2-10-4 ($1300 MSRP) with steam-chest "cylinder steam effects", which I recently saw on video.  And this looked like a really cool effect.

Fast-Forward to 2016... and I don't see this feature implemented all that much anymore.  OK... I guess the VisionLine Challenger and VisionLine Big Boy had dynamo and/or blow-down effects, but that's different.  Lionel featured an Allegheny in the company's 2016 Signature Catalog... and if I'm not mistaken, that locomotive has NONE of these enhanced steam-effects (aside from whistle-steam).

Could be that they had so many complaints about that "cylinder steam effects" feature, that the stopped installing it. Besides, it would probably be VERY difficult to install that feature on articulated steam locomotives, what with all the flexibility involved on the front engine. 

Any reason why Lionel isn't including more of these cool effect on its higher end locomotives given the fact that they're now pushing $1400+ (street-price) for non-articulated steamers, and $1800+ (street-price) for articulated steamers like the Allegheny? 

Would more folks have ordered the Allegheny if it included ALL of these steam effects at VisionLine Big Boy prices?  I might even have ordered an Allegheny if it included just the steam-chest "cylinder steam effects" at the current price-point.  But without any added steam effects (other than whistle-steam), I passed on the Allegheny.

David

One added comment about that "cylinder steam effects" feature, remember that it does NOT include the accompaning loud "hissing" sounds of escaping steam from the open cylinder cocks while the "smoke" is being emitted. To my knowledge, only MTH has the loud "hissing" sounds of "open cylinder cocks" for the first few revolutions of the drivers. Too bad MTH hasn't tried that "cylinder steam effects" feature to accompany the sounds. 

The Legacy 2-10-4 does have the hiss at start up.

I'd rather NOT have all the extra troublesome gizmos that boost the prices up into uncharted territory,add to the equation that MOST of the new releases from L and M have been reruns and they've lost me as a buyer. If there are newly tooled,never before offered big steam locos in the future,I'll be interested. In the meantime,I'll seek previously offered locomotives I don't have out on the secondary market. 

the effect is cool, but it does really oil up the track after a while

MYTRAINS - is that the reason I have a thin film of black soot on my rails - the steam being turned on?  

David, I think you know that I am one of those people that prefers as many smoke effects as possible.  That's why I've posted several times that my all-time fave engine is the Vision Challenger.  It had the most.  

Everyone says they're looking for so-called prototypical, yet many of these folks completely miss the fact that one of the very first and most impressive things you see when encountering a real steamer is - all the freakin' steam pouring out everywhere.  For me, I'm not a prototypical nut, I am just a kid at heart and the more smoke the better.

Peter

I've been inquiring about the Cylinder Steam Smoke Effects since I resurfaced into this hobby, nearly 4 years now.  I thought my wishes had fallen on deaf ears, however now, with this being brought to the surface as a "rekindled" topic, my hopes are alive.  Thanks David

T4TT posted:

Now that you mention it Rocky Mountaineer these toys are way overpriced.  Thanks for pointing that out for the one thousandth time!  Because of your astute market observation I am going to stop buying Lionel products.  Will you join me in my protest?  You are going to have to stop buying overpriced Lionel products so you can continue purchase $300 RPO cars that are not overpriced.

I nominate this for worst post of the day..........

86TA355SR posted:

Wish Lionel would release more locomotives with smoking dynamos.  The VL Challenger pioneered it and it's an awesome visual treat.

I'd rather have the smoking dynamo than any other steam feature.  Whistle steam is cool, but dependent upon where whistle is located, it can be 'drowned' out by main stack smoke.  Smoke is only visible while whistle is blown.  Dynamo smoke, on the other hand, operates all the time.

I didn't order the Allegheny-not my modeling interest. 

I was starting to wonder if I was the only person who thought this way.

Personally, I'd trade Whistle Steam or Cylinder Steam Effects for a smoking dynamo in a heart beat.  I think it's much more visually impressive and appealing.

I'd also imagine that it would be the cheapest and most reliable "extra" smoke feature .  It's simply either off or on.  It doesn't need to be timed with the chuff or made to work in conjunction with the whistle sound effect.  It should be as reliable as the smoke units in today's Legacy Diesels, which smoke a ton.....even though I have that turned off 95% of the time.

David, I am a fan of the cylinder effects.  I also wish it was in the later locomotives.  I have the S-3 and constantly activate the feature.  It is no big deal inside.  A smoke unit with a few sections of clear fish tank tubing.  That is all whistle smoke is now.  

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

 

Any reason why Lionel isn't including more of these cool effect on its higher end locomotives given the fact that they're now pushing $1400+ (street-price) for non-articulated steamers, and $1800+ (street-price) for articulated steamers like the Allegheny? 

Would more folks have ordered the Allegheny if it included ALL of these steam effects at VisionLine Big Boy prices?  I might even have ordered an Allegheny if it included just the steam-chest "cylinder steam effects" at the current price-point.  But without any added steam effects (other than whistle-steam), I passed on the Allegheny.

David

Pretty simple to figure out.   In the auto industry it's  called the "hanging carrot".   When you can't change the carrot, you improve the flavor and dangle it in their face.   When constricted to selling a horribly repetitive product line, they hold back a few good things for the next reissue and charge more.   Call it  effective marketing.  

Joe

Keep in mind the VL was brought out to try new ideas. Could be not all things tried can be used in other engines.

I'm all for more smoke effects, and depleting coal too on more steamers.  As for the cylinder effect, it blew out both ends at the same time, not alternating, so I think many cried fowl, plus I heard that they weren't very reliable.  But it still looked cool, and I'd love to see it on more locomotives.  As for keeping me from buying, well, I don't think it would keep me if it was a locomotive I really wanted.  The thing that does more to keep me from buying, besides the price, is the min curve.  The only locomotive I ordered this time is the AT&SF Class A, and that's even really a locomotive type I wanted, but it was the only O36 Santa Fe steam locomotive Lionel offered, and I wanted Santa Fe.  The whistle steam and watching a video of the last offering of the LionMaster Class A sealed the deal, it sure sounded great.  I really, really wanted a GS-4, but being rated at O54, I had to pass.  I know Lionel has made a nice looking O36 version, and MTH makes them all the time, so why hasn't Lionel made one with Legacy yet?  At this rate I'll end up buying one of MTH's and gutting it to install the ERR kit.  Heck, doing that would still cost me less than a new one from Lionel, especially if I get one of the older PS-2 equipped GS-4s.

FWIW:  I would NOT pay extra for the depleting coal feature.  For starters, I'm just not that impressed with it.  It's kind of cool at first, but I think it loses it's luster as time goes by.  But, my bigger concern is that I just can't see this feature holding up/continuously working over time.  (I have nothing to base this on other than my observations.)

Jim 1939 posted:

Keep in mind the VL was brought out to try new ideas. Could be not all things tried can be used in other engines.

Ironically, neither the Mikwaukee Road S-3 nor the 2-10-4 Texas locomotives were Vision Line products... Yet they both featured cylinder steam effects.  If I recall correctly, Lionel offered a very different implementation of this way back in the 1980's or 1990's -- perhaps the N&W Warhorse set with a "J" locomotive.  So it wasn't completely new in 2011 -- but the 2011 implementation looked like a winner, and I'd like to see it featured more often.

I just think these various "steam effects" add greatly to the enjoyment of running steam locomotives on our model railroads.  

No doubt that some features might be "held back" for a future re-issue.  The law of incremental improvement is used often in various industries when the base product doesn't change that often.  Take Hollywood movies for example:  how many times can the same movie be re-issued?  Laser-disc; DVD;  blu-ray; blu-ray with 7.1 audio; and now we're starting to see Ultra 4K blu-ray.  

But your point is well taken regarding VisionLine features in general.  The depleting coal tender may be one such feature that doesn't scream "gotta have it" in future offerings.  It was intriguing to see it once, but it's not a need-to-have for me... and it probably adds significant cost to the product.  And we can all use a break in that department.  

David

Pardon me for blaspheming, but here's my thoughts on the Vision Line Hudson:  Start with the K-Line scale Hudson and add a Hennings Super Chuffer.   Even after all these years, it's still hard to beat the detail on this piece.

Yeah - two chuffs isn't as cool as four.....but it's literally half the cost.  If you already own a K-Line Hudson, the cost differential becomes the Super Chuffer price vs. full retail on the Vision Line Hudson.  Just not cost effective in my book.

Personally, I'd rather run the K-Line Hudson with a Super Chuffer and spend the $1,400 (or less) on a Vision Line Challenger.

Ahhh...but in addition to the detail (pedigree),  and other features, the bell moves on the Vision Line Hudson....very cool, and always amazes visitors.   Now, is a moving bell work $1400?   It's all relative my friend. 

Boomer posted:

I'd rather NOT have all the extra troublesome gizmos that boost the prices up into uncharted territory,add to the equation that MOST of the new releases from L and M have been reruns and they've lost me as a buyer. If there are newly tooled,never before offered big steam locos in the future,I'll be interested. In the meantime,I'll seek previously offered locomotives I don't have out on the secondary market. 

+1 here. I have a few Lionel engines with enhanced features and they are cool but don't plan to buy any more Lionel if they only add these features to pre existing engines. When they offer a new prototype, never before offered in 3 rail it will get my attention regardless if it has whistle steam or any special "feature".

Pete

Interesting thread and replies. However, if you look under the hood of the S-3 and the 2-10-4 the steam chest smoke had a couple of fatal flaws... the dual reservoir with a divided chamber is a failure at best. The second chamber would almost never absorb fluid enough. You had to fill the reservoir with out over flowing it and wait a few hours for the other reservoir to create smoke.

Secondly the tube that ran down to the steam chest would come off or kink so the smoke would  rarely make it to the steam chest. I had to take mine apart a few times to alleviate the detached hose or the kink, only to wrestle with the glued on tubing.

I'm speculating that Lionel had quite a few returns on these and probably said never again, unless a change is made. (Maybe one on the way)?

Fast-forward to today. 2000.00 for an Allegheny. Even if this thing washed my car and cleaned the house I would have to say no - its just priced out of the market. Ask all the dealers who have a Big-Boy sitting on their shelf with a 2500.00 dollar price sticker on it. 

As a consumer I could stomach the largest steam locomotive having the LARGEST price tag. But when every articulated steam engine began to follow, I said enough is enough.

Case in point, is I never put a pre-order in to buy a Big Boy, but now there are dealers begging me to buy one at the pre-order price...

The real buy was the 1225 and 765 Berks... gone like no tomorrow at a great price too!  And in this catalog the winner in the weeds will be the GS4 and the T-1s... If had to take a guess they will be snapped up quickly.

i saw the S3 with steam chest and was blown away.  I've been very disappointed that Lionel has not brought that back on more engines.  I found it way more impressive than the whiste steam.  and I remember it hissing when it was being activated as well??

RickO posted:

Lionels smoke production is improved, but the reliablility slightly if that.

They continue to resdesign smoke units with every offering never having gotten the bugs out of the previous one.

I think every single legacy steamer I have has a different smoke unit, i.e. plastic bowls, metal bowls, shared whistle steam, seperate whistle steam, fan in a seperate housing, fan in the bowl, boiler mounted, chassis mounted etc etc.

My most reliable Lionel smoke units are still the TMCC ones from the mid 2000s, good smoke, and no fan noise what so ever.

At any rate, folks have already voted for big dollar stuff from Lionel, why would they lower prices or increase features at this point?

 Its not right, it just is.

 y

Good observation.  When I think about it,  every Legacy steamer I own with whistle smoke has had some sort of output or worse problem that ended up with the dreaded three cab light blink.   IMO, it's eye candy but still unproven over the long haul.  For me its been a problematic feature and most likely very costly to repair when out of warranty.   Besides, after a few minutes in my mostly unventilated basement,  you either turn smoke units off or choke on the smoke.   

 Joe

I drooled all over my 2016 Signature Series catalog.  But the reality is, no matter how many bells, whistles and steaming  chests these thing have I can not justify laying out the bucks. It's the difference in having essentially a museum piece on a shelf or building my layout.  I recently bought a Lionchief plus Camelback from Mario's. Love it. I'd be happier if Lionel put some effort towards a couple scale sized Lionchief plus pieces with detail equal to the Camelback's for those of us who either won't or can't invest $1000+. Betcha they'd sell well.

J Daddy posted:

... I'm speculating that Lionel had quite a few returns on these and probably said never again, unless a change is made. (Maybe one on the way)?

 

...

The real buy was the 1225 and 765 Berks... gone like no tomorrow at a great price too!  And in this catalog the winner in the weeds will be the GS4 and the T-1s... If had to take a guess they will be snapped up quickly.

Thanks for the insight on the cylinder steam effect implementation, J Daddy.  Hopefully, Lionel's engineers are working to deliver cylinder steam Version 2.0 soon!!!

As for the Berks, I absolutely agree.  I think the street-price for the 1225 re-issue was $1050 at Charlie Ro, and today we're now up around $1400 (street-price) for non-articulated Lionel steamers like the FEF-3, GS-4 and T-1.  $350 just like that in a couple of years' time.    The Milwaukee Road S-3 had great price/performance too at $995 MSRP and an even lower street-price.  It's also holding its own quite well on the secondary market too.  There are always folks looking for one here on the forum.

I hope those GS-4's and T-1's don't disappear too quickly, 'cause I didn't pre-order.  I'm gonna wait things out, and try to get a GS-4 when somebody has a good sale.  But if they go fast, my Legacy Daylight Cab-Forward will serve nicely at the head of an SP passenger train. 

David

I'm with Joe.  Zero smoke unit issues on my TMCC models or Legacy Steamers w/o Whistle Steam.  Until a few weeks ago, I only had one Steam Engine with Whistle Steam (Santa Fe #3751) and it has been nothing but a problem.  I just picked up a Legacy GN Heavy Mike with whistle steam that has been flawless thus far....but I have less than two hours run time on it.  I'm crossing my fingers.  (I love the new locomotive, FWIW.)

That's part of the reason I favor having modern Legacy Smoke Units kicking smoke out only the smoke stack.....and the dynamo smoke effect.  Near maximum smoke, incredible visual effect, and no whistle steam or steam chest issues to worry about.

J Daddy posted:

In this catalog the winner in the weeds will be the GS4 and the T-1s... If had to take a guess they will be snapped up quickly.

 

Actually IMO, the real winner in the weeds are those savvy enough to "wait" in those weeds and feast on older JLC's  and first issue Legacy engines dumped into the secondary market cheap...

Joe 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

J Daddy posted:

... I'm speculating that Lionel had quite a few returns on these and probably said never again, unless a change is made. (Maybe one on the way)?

 

...

The real buy was the 1225 and 765 Berks... gone like no tomorrow at a great price too!  And in this catalog the winner in the weeds will be the GS4 and the T-1s... If had to take a guess they will be snapped up quickly.

Thanks for the insight on the cylinder steam effect implementation, J Daddy.  Hopefully, Lionel's engineers are working to deliver cylinder steam Version 2.0 soon!!!

As for the Berks, I absolutely agree.  I think the street-price for the 1225 re-issue was $1050 at Charlie Ro, and today we're now up around $1400 (street-price) for non-articulated Lionel steamers like the FEF-3, GS-4 and T-1.  $350 just like that in a couple of years' time.    The Milwaukee Road S-3 had great price/performance too at $995 MSRP and an even lower street-price.  It's also holding its own quite well on the secondary market too.  There are always folks looking for one here on the forum.

I hope those GS-4's and T-1's don't disappear too quickly, 'cause I didn't pre-order.  I'm gonna wait things out, and try to get a GS-4 when somebody has a good sale.  But if they go fast, my Legacy Daylight Cab-Forward will serve nicely at the head of an SP passenger train. 

David

So question is what do I get for the additional $350.00?

LCS sensor? Better sound? Better box? Framed and signed photo?

Not sure so this JDaddy ordered the sound cars, and UP excursion set and sat on the fence.

Could be a mistake but the only good news of this debacle is selling the old stuff might hold its value?

David,  you're right about the N&W J cylinder steam and the 18056 Hudson has it too.  The effect isn't jaw dropping by any means but it's pretty cool and very simple in design.  RICH