A tale of two Berks

Nothing like a Berky, especially two of them.

Nice pics Sam. Thanks for sharing!

Sam they look the same to me.  What are the spotting differences on the '47 vs the '49 model?

Beauties!

 

Too bad you have to let one go. All you need is the '46 to complete your set. Well, then there's the '52 RR...both versions...nevermind.

quote:

What are the spotting differences on the '47 vs the '49 model?

 

The 47 model does not have a simulated coupler on the pilot (cowcatcher). Same goes for the 46 model.

The 48 and 49 models do have a simulated coupler.

 

Some time ago an article was published stating that the 1949 model had a "hairpin" spring style brushplate. I have yet to see one this way. All the nickle rim berks that I have seen have the coil spring brushplates. (But that doesn't doesn't mean there aren't any!)

 

There may be other differences, I look forward to seeing what others post.

Another difference is the brushplates. Before 49 I think they all had the atomic motor inscription. My brushplate is actually red too.

I checked Doyle's book on postwar for any other variations, but noticed the section for late 726 is pretty botched. A 1946 model is shown for 1947, and two variations for 1948 are listed but they have the same description. If a 3rd edition is ever published this should be addressed.

quote:

Another difference is the brushplates. Before 49 I think they all had the atomic motor inscription. My brushplate is actually red too.

 

Which engine has the red brushplate?

I've never fully understood the focus on the red brushplates, what is special about them?

I've had various pieces with red plates, and even have some NOS plates in my parts supply.

 My red NOS brushplates all have "Lionel atomic" on them, and have brushtubes that are staked in place, as opposed to the style that screw in. They do not have the jacks for e-unit control.

Looking in my parts drawer, I do see that most of the motors have black brushplates, with "Lionel" and  "Precision Motor" markings on seperate lines. They have staked coil spring brush tubes, and no jacks.

I have one 1946 turbine motor (I think) that has a red "Lionel atomic" brushplate with the jacks for e-unit controls. It has the removeable (threaded) coil spring brush tubes.

I also have a 1946 brushplate with jacks, removeable brush tubes, and "Lionel atomic" on one line  in mottled green and black.

I'm posting from my phone out of town right now, so I don't have the plates to compare. I forget whether or not the red one is the only one that says atomic or if both red and black do. I do know the ones with the e-unit control right on the motor are supposed to be rare. Gold seal high stack or something like that. Those were in the early 46 berks. Other than that, the red plates are only slightly more scarce than the black ones. It really comes down to preference. I much prefer the red plate. Adds a little pizazz, if you will. Sort of how Christian Louboutin shoes have those hot red bottoms. (too much fashion shopping with my lady friend)

My 726 is a 48 model with the coupler, red atomic plate motor, and silver lettered tender.

If you desire a complete analysis of the differences in the various types of Lionel Berkshires produced from 1946 to 1966 refer to Lionel: A Collector's Guide & History, Volume II: Postwar By Tom McComas and James Tuohy published in 1976 and reprinted in 1993.  Specifically read pages 47 and 48.

Hi CW.   I got my information from Greenbergs' guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969 Vol 1 where they say (p.80)

(C)  1948-49, similar to 1946-47, but plain pilot without simulated front coupler, ...

 

I don't have the TM book to compare. Wonder which is correct?

What in the world? I'd venture to say that's a misprint...

 

quote:

Wonder which is correct

 

In this particular instance, I am

 

1946 and 1947 no simulated coupler

1948 and 1949 has a simulated coupler.

 

The TM book referenced above contains the statement about 1949 Berkshires having a "622" style brushplate.

 

Another interesting reference can be found in the Greenberg guides. I cannot find my copy of the price guide with the article about Berkshires, but it was reprinted in the 1991 edition of "Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969, Volume II, Behind the Scenes,  ISBN 0-89778-187-2 (other editions have different content)

It has an eleven page article on Berkshires. A picture of an engine with the "622" style brushplate appears on page 68, and a variations chart appears on page 70.

According to my take on the variations chart, the only difference between a 1948 model and a 1949 model is the brushplate.

As I mentioned earlier, I have yet to see (in person) a nickle rimmed Berk with a 622 brushplate, so guess I haven't seen a 1949 model.

 

While I don't claim to be a Berkshire expert, I did go through a period where I was keenly interested in them, and acquired a number of the variations. I looked at quite a few of them during this time.

 

 

The 681-105 brushplate("622 style") / motor was with almost complete certainly NOT used before 1950 on either the 726 or 671, which would confirm your observations.  Why 1950 parts would be expected on 1949 equipment is puzzling(the turbines and berks were overhauled/updated into their MagneTraction versions for 1950 with several other minor changes - the motors included).  The erroneous information presented by Greenberg is likely intentional, as Ambrose has indicated he has laced his work with "ringers" to entrap would-be plagiarists.  The contradictory "off-by-a-year" example is typical.

 

"Atomic" came in both red & black.  I have examples of both.

It was the 1984 edition of Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains, 1945-1969 that first carried the article on Berkshires. It has a Western Pacific F3 on the cover.

The article carries a note indicating that it originally appearing in the June 1979 edition of The Lion Roars, the LCCA's magazine.

The author was Ron Griesbeck.

It seems odd to me that Lionel would add detail to the pilot in 1948 where the norm was to lessen detail. I guess I have a 1947 model now rather than a 48/49...

 

 

quote:

The 681-105 brushplate("622 style") / motor was with almost complete certainly NOT used before 1950 on either the 726 or 671, which would confirm your observations.  Why 1950 parts would be expected on 1949 equipment is puzzling(the turbines and berks were overhauled/updated into their MagneTraction versions for 1950 with several other minor changes - the motors included). 

 

The reported variation does not make any sense to me either.

quote:

It seems odd to me that Lionel would add detail to the pilot in 1948 where the norm was to lessen detail. I guess I have a 1947 model now rather than a 48/49...

 

Doesn't also seem odd that they reworked the boiler after the 1946 model?
Lionel was at the top of their game then. Making improvements was part of the way they operated.

Dont forget they did the same thing to the 675/2025. They began with plain pilots and unpainted aluminum stacks, then added the coupler and painted the stacks.

Now that I'm home, here's photos of the brush plates. This is a plain black one from a 1949 671 Turbine. It does not say "ATOMIC". It would be interesting to know if that word is year specific, or just that Lionel used whatever plates they had laying around:

 

 

Here's the one from my 1948 726:

 

 

The erroneous information presented by Greenberg is likely intentional, as Ambrose has indicated he has laced his work with "ringers" to entrap would-be plagiarists.  The contradictory "off-by-a-year" example is typical.

 

If it is true that NO Lionel model ever had a 622 brush plate in 1949, then it would seem Doyle and TM both plagiarized because they both claim in 1949 steamers received the 622 brush plate.

 

Also, if the TM book on Postwar isn't mistaken, then I have a mismatched tender on my berk. They say in 1948 the whistle housing was changed to plastic, but mine is still metal.

Sam, very nice pictures. You capture the feel of the 40's very well. I have three of these wonderful machines. I still think they are the best proportioned steam engines Lionel ever made from the 40's & 50's. I forget the year of the catalog but the Berkshire sitting on the turntable is my favorite, other than the pink bridge. Don 

quote:

If it is true that NO Lionel model ever had a 622 brush plate in 1949, then it would seem Doyle and TM both plagiarized because they both claim in 1949 steamers received the 622 brush plate.

 

I did a little homework. The 622 was introduced in 1949. Therefore the brushplates were available that year. 

 

We know that Doyle "borrowed" his information from all the works that went before his. That includes both Greenberg and TM. At one time, there was cooperation between TM and Greenberg, as they were not in direct competition.

I have the impression that the first (spiral bound) edition of the TM book, and the first edition of the Greenberg postwar price guide used a lot of the same photographs.

 

So where did the information originate?

 

The reprinted article on Berks originally appeared in a 1979 issue of the Lion Roars. I'd guess that was the source for both TM & Greenberg.

 

 

They were not.  The 622-114 brush plate was used on the 622 & 6220 in 1949, NOT the 681-105 used on 1950 and later Berks/Turbines.

quote:

They were not.  The 622-114 brush plate was used on the 622 & 6220 in 1949, NOT the 681-105 used on 1950 and later Berks/Turbines

 

I guess my homework gets an incomplete! I forgot that a 681 brushplate would differ from the 622 brushplate.  I checked the article in the 1984 edition of the Greenberg guide. The "1949" engine clearly shows that there is no bearing inserted in the brushplate.

 

Could they have made up some 622 style brushplates without the bearing / oil wick / retainer? I guess so, but I think they would have documented it.

 

I also checked the Lionel parts list pages LOC-726 (1947), which are titled:

quote:

No. 726 - LOCOMOTIVE (1947 - 1949 Model.)

 

It is dated 10-59, and lists the brushplate as 671M-5 which has coil spring brush holders, without the jacks for e-unit control.