A visit to the Cumbres & Toltec

Great photos.    I the Cumbres and Toltec is a great ride.    And the yards in chama are like going back to the 1940s or 50s

The Cumbres & Toltec is authentic in every way practicable.

They even use retainers on the cars, on descending grades.  As prrjim pointed out, it's like going back in time, to the days of regular narrow gauge operation.

I stopped by Chama in 2014 on my way back from an event in Farmington; some of the photos that I took (in no particular order):

And last, but not least:

@PRRMP54 posted:

I stopped by Chama in 2014 on my way back from an event in Farmington; some of the photos that I took (in no particular order):

Note the "swinging pilots"!!

@J 611 posted:

Last Wednesday I visited the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad in Chama, New Mexico. I rode behind 488 from Chama to Osier and then locomotive 463 from Osier to Antonito. The railroad currently has 4 operational locomotives 484, 488, 463 & 168. Locomotives 487 and 489 (pictured below) are in the shop being converted to oil firing and other maintenance. Locomotive 492 is currently being disassembled in the Chama yard as part of its restoration to operating condition as a coal burner. 492 has not operated since the D&RGW days. The day I visited 484 was in the shop for a boiler wash. Thought I would share some photos of the trip with the forum.

Thanks for the report, pictures and video. My wife and I will be in Colorado in a couple of weeks and will be riding the Durango & Silverton, Cumbres & Toltec and Royal Gorge Scenic Railroads, as well as the Pikes Peak Cog Railway. Had this trip planned for 2020, but Covid had other ideas.

Should be quite an adventure!

Pat  

@irish rifle posted:

Thanks for the report, pictures and video. My wife and I will be in Colorado in a couple of weeks and will be riding the Durango & Silverton, Cumbres & Toltec and Royal Gorge Scenic Railroads, as well as the Pikes Peak Cog Railway. Had this trip planned for 2020, but Covid had other ideas.

Should be quite an adventure!

Pat  

That sounds like an awesome trip! I was only able to sell my non train loving wife on one train ride while on vacation in New Mexico. We also rode in a hot air balloon in Albuquerque. It was a cool experience but lacked the coal smoke I like. 😂

@Number 90 posted:

The Cumbres & Toltec is authentic in every way practicable.

They even use retainers on the cars, on descending grades.  As prrjim pointed out, it's like going back in time, to the days of regular narrow gauge operation.

Let me be the first to ask, what is a retainer?  Pat B.

@PRRMP54 posted:

I stopped by Chama in 2014 on my way back from an event in Farmington; some of the photos that I took (in no particular order):

Ah, I looked for 497 while I was there as it was the locomotive I rode behind on my last visit. I know your photos are from a while back but I bet she’s still hiding in the old round house.

j 611...If possible make reservations to ride in observation car seats 1-3-5 as these are very end seats and door to observation car is opposite your seat and will not bang into you when opens. And you (because you are riding this extra fare car) have basically unlimited access to observation platform during the trip. Worth the extra fare.

I rode July 5th, 2022 Antonito to Chama - bus return. I think departing from Antonito is better...a more railroad feel, not many tourists. Great 100 yr+ old hotel and 'local' restaurant too in town about 1/4 mile from train station.

Walter

seat 1

\

Great photos! I do believe the Cumbres & Toltec still have some coal burning locomotives. Unlike the Durango & Silverton which has had to convert everything to oil burning. Very unfortunate as I would prefer they left them as coal fired. But I understand why they did it with fire danger. It may be a matter of time before the Cumbres & Toltec has to do the same thing.

@Dwayne B posted:

Great photos! I do believe the Cumbres & Toltec still have some coal burning locomotives. Unlike the Durango & Silverton which has had to convert everything to oil burning. Very unfortunate as I would prefer they left them as coal fired. But I understand why they did it with fire danger. It may be a matter of time before the Cumbres & Toltec has to do the same thing.

Beside the danger from fires, the price of good steam locomotive coal is ever increasing and becoming harder and harder to obtain.

Rode the C&T father's day week. Still a coal burner,  so wear glasses to keep the cinders out of your eyes (even if you're riding in a car as opposed to the open-air). Also expect to get a little dirty. Beautiful country,  rode from Chama halfway up the line then back.  Great lunch at midway where you change trains for Antonito. Coming back down was a little jostling and bucking since the locomotive is holding you back on a 4% grade.

If you have the time don't miss the Leadville Colorado and Southern train.

@irish rifle posted:

Thanks for the report, pictures and video. My wife and I will be in Colorado in a couple of weeks and will be riding the Durango & Silverton, Cumbres & Toltec and Royal Gorge Scenic Railroads, as well as the Pikes Peak Cog Railway. Had this trip planned for 2020, but Covid had other ideas.

Should be quite an adventure!

Pat  

If possible,  on the Royal Gorge Railroad,  try to get tickets for the cab ride.  On Father's day my son and I rode in the cab for a bucket list experience.  No food but the unobstructed views out the cab are more than worth it. A true railfan's dream.

@lpb007 posted:

Let me be the first to ask, what is a retainer?  Pat B.

A retainer is a device that’s part of the brake system on a railcar. Its set by hand and it retains air pressure to allow the brakes on the car to remain on even when the engineer releases the brakes. They are used on long downward grades. This allows for the air reservoirs to be recharged for the next application of the brakes without the train running away.

third rail writes:

“Rode the C&T father's day week. Still a coal burner,  so wear glasses to keep the cinders out of your eyes (even if you're riding in a car as opposed to the open-air).”

Rode in an enclosed car behind a coal burner on Strasburg RR many years ago; no glasses; sustained a cinder burn to my left cornea; local ER visit; treated by on call ophthalmologist; left eye patched the rest of the trip to Lancaster County. Good idea to take Bill’s advice seriously!

@lpb007 posted:

Let me be the first to ask, what is a retainer?  Pat B.

Without getting too technical:

A retaining valve is an appliance applied to the pipe where air exhausts to the atmosphere from the brake cylinder during a release of air brakes.  Its purpose is to allow the Engineer to keep the brake application in effect while recharging the brake pipe.  Modern air brake valves on diesel locomotives and dynamic braking have largely eliminated the daily use of retainers, but each car must be equipped in case the modern locomotive equipment fails to maintain the specified pressure.  In the case of the Cumbres & Toltec, the steam locomotives are equipped with Number 6 brake valves, developed in the early 1900's.  This is still safe to use, but it lacks the maintaining features of modern locomotive equipment, and will allow the brake pipe pressure to leak down during a brake application.

Each car has its own air brake system consisting of

• A duplex air reservoir,
• A control valve for charging the reservoir, and for applying and releasing the air brakes,
• A continuous brake pipe connected to the locomotive, which supplies compressed air for charging the reservoir, and, by variations in pressure, signaling the control valve to apply, release, and recharge the brakes.
• A brake cylinder and brake rigging consisting of rods and levers, to mechanically operate the brake shoes.
• A retaining valve.

A retaining valve (retainer) has either 3 or 4 positions.  These are the positions of the manually operated handle of a 4-position retainer:

• Direct, which allows air to exhaust from the brake cylinder without restriction.
• High Pressure, which retains 20 psi of brake cylinder pressure while the brake pipe and reservoir is recharged.
• Low Pressure, which retains 10 psi of brake cylinder pressure while the brake pipe and reservoir is recharged.
• Slow Direct, which restricts the exhaust so that the brakes release, but very slowly, to "buy time".

The brake pipe pressure is reduced by the Engineer, using the automatic brake valve, to signal the cars to apply their brakes, and then is increased to signal the cars to release their brakes and recharge their reservoirs.

When descending a long, mountain grade, the brake pipe is reduced to apply the brakes, which have to remain applied all the way down the mountain.  But leakage in the brake pipe will slowly lower the pressure below the pressure the Engineer chose, and the brakes will slowly be applied harder, eventually causing the train to stall, unless the brake cylinder pressure can be reduced but not fully released.  Air needs to be resupplied to the cars so that subsequent brake applications can be made by the Engineer.  This is called cycle braking.  The resupplying and recharging is essential to avoid having the available air pressure in the cars becoming too low for the brakes to operate properly.

So . . . retainers buy some time for the Engineer to cycle the brake applications while descending a long grade.  On the C&TS, the Trainmen manually position the retaining valve handles before the train begins to descend the grade, and then reposition them after the bottom of the grade is reached.

I hope that was a clear enough explanation.  Email me off line (see my profile) if you want more clarification.

J611 and Tom, Thanks for the explanations. I think that I understand. Regards, Pat B.