AC COMBINATION VOLT/AMP DIGITAL PANNEL METER

cjack posted:

When the world gets a toy train layout in every home, the appropriate meters will be "affordable".

So how do we make that happen?

I have not yet found any lower priced combo meters. But, I just took another look at the RRampMeters. The RRampMeter I is $59.95, no enclosure or any other extras like the II, III and IV. It does 10 amps, probably all I would ever need, but it doesn't specify the max voltage any where that i could see? I would prefer the II ($84.95) with enclosure and banana jacks, but beggars can't be choosy (but I just might splurge for the extra features ). Maybe this would be worth a try if I called to verify the max voltage which would be 18-19 for me and I use the Lionel PH-180s for all my track power (just got 2 more when they finally became available recently, before they ran out again . Still a pretty hefty cost for four of them! What do you all think about that?

Of course like just computer equipment, as soon as I received these, ebay, Amazon and the others would come out with gazillions of the same thing for $5-$10 and free shipping and I would be left with a large over priced bunch of meters.  Maybe I will keep searching and hoping something will show up someday.

cjack,

About your comment on the $2500 car audio systems, I have a 10 year old car that I really like. Only has 75,000 miles on it, however it's starting to have problems with the A/C and a couple of other things that could be expensive repairs, Then last winter my wife decided to see how well it would hold up against one of the parking lot lights with a concrete base at the grocery store. It now has a nice bruise on the passengers's front just behind the headlight. The concrete base on the light pole won by a very wide margin.

Anyway, been looking at new cars and I can't find anything I really like, at least not enough to fork over the prices they want for them. The sticker prices to replace what have are up in the stratosphere! Being retired makes that look even more like it's out in Earth's orbital range!! Our first house was $18,000 and they have mid range vehicles priced at 2-3 times that!! Really makes the RRampMeters look like a bargain!! Maybe I will quit driving, bite the bullet and just get the meters. Bad part about that is the local train shop is way too far to walk to. 

We have one with 205,000 on it in 12 years on an '05 Pilot and 51,000 in 15 years on an '02 Tundra. I drive the Tundra. The most I've spent on it is sulfated batteries. We've been looking. I figure if we look long and at enough, the prices may start to look just awful high, instead of crazy.

This is a great topic that's captured a lot of attention. However after 122 posts, we don’t seem to be any closer to a reliable and cost-effective solution. There seems to be agreement that the 4 different types of RRampMeter are good … but at a cost. There’s also plenty of devices like the blue LED meter plus the red and green meter tried by WILLYGEE pictured below that work only in the 80-300V range. So we can forget those!

My local electronics store suggested I could tap off the output of the train transformer and run through a bridge rectifier to deliver volts to a DC voltmeter. However I don’t think this would deliver an accurate reading although it might be OK for comparison purposes. It’s not a solution for an ammeter.

It’s just unfortunate that 99% of people working with low voltages are doing it in the world of DC. If only there was something available in AC like this little device that I bought off eBay to measure the voltage and current from the USB port of my computer. It cost all of $3 and works well!

Did anyone buy and test Yeeco volt and ammeters?

The only other thought I had was cannibalising several $10 multimeters that measure AC volts and amps for parts, then mounting the displays on the top of the panel and the rest of the meter underneath.

I use the Yeeco 0-199.9VAC meter, and it reads about the same as my Fluke 115.    I power it with a 12v wall wart; it's bright and readable across a room.   $11.96 on Amazon.

Dennis

That's good news Dennis. Do you use the Yeeco ammeter as well? This one looks the same as the Yeeco.

And here's where I found it.

I use the Yeeco at the far end of my small layout, because it can be read from a distance.  I used a eBay analog ammeter and voltmeter in a 'instrument' project box, with a non-shorting rotary double-pole six position switch to monitor various transformers at the control end.  Inexpensive but works well.  

Dennis

Well, from all the picks, here's what looks to be a "reasonable" solution to the problem for current and voltage.  Can't improve on the voltmeter show above, and the ammeter doesn't exactly match, but it's close.  I'll add the eBay auction #'s so you can easily find the stuff, at least until they go out of date.

Panel Mount LCD Display Voltage Measuring Voltmeter AC 0-200V T1

0-199.9V AC Voltmeter, eBay #: 252592584426, $4.54 shipped

AC 0-10A Digital Amp Current Panel Alternating Meter Ammeter Built-in CT MZ

0-9.99A AC Ammeter, eBay #: 171358955425, $10.00 shipped

willygee posted:

Alibaba mfg asking question:

ok  

I understand full

Power:AC12-24V

Current:AC20A

Voltage:AC12-24V

Two wires connection

there is a question 

when 12V /24V, you need it display:12V/24V or 12.0V/24.0V

Best regards

Diana

I replied either ok.

willygee, did you get a response?

The package from YB Electronics for their digital combo (voltage and current) panel meter suggests they have versions with voltage spans that apply to O-gauge.  To each his own on measuring down to 0.0V ("must have" vs. "nice to have") and need to attach a power source whether from a wall-wart or some kind of isolated power module, battery, whatever.  So digging up the YB Electronics catalog or whatever might be another line of inquiry.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 

...the ammeter doesn't exactly match, but it's close.  I'll add the eBay auction #'s so you can easily find the stuff, at least until they go out of date.

....

AC 0-10A Digital Amp Current Panel Alternating Meter Ammeter Built-in CT MZ

0-9.99A AC Ammeter, eBay #: 171358955425, $10.00 shipped

What's your definition of "close"?

The eBay listing photo shows a DC ammeter, the specs also suggest a DC ammeter (+/- 9.99A range).  It does state you can use an AC supply to power it; I wonder if that's what they mean by an AC ammeter?   

I'd make further inquiries before clicking the Buy-It-Now.

Well, the big heading says AC ammeter, but that wouldn't be the first time an eBay ad has been wrong.

I think I'll fire off a query to the seller and ask if it's really an AC ammeter.

Here's the two that interest me.  But I'm very impulsive.  

Edit:  I like the comment, separately to power supply, otherwise instrument to burn...

Right.  The "isolation" requirement has been a confusing issue with many OGR threads about using wall-warts, isolated DC-DC converters, etc.  A lot of guys want to use 2 or more meters to monitor multiple AC blocks, a multi-output transformer, or multiple transformers...typically if not always with a phased common (e.g., "U" terminal).  So do you need one wall-wart per meter, or can you share one wall-wart across multiple meters.  This gets confusing to the point where the venerable self-powered analog meters look mighty attractive!

But it does appear that for $25-30 you can pair the AC-measuring voltage and current meters you show along with suitable power sources to make a digital AC combo panel meter suitable for O-gauge voltages/currents.

stan2004 posted:

But it does appear that for $25-30 you can pair the AC-measuring voltage and current meters you show along with suitable power sources to make a digital AC combo panel meter suitable for O-gauge voltages/currents.

We'll see.  How limiting is the nominal "10 amps" on the amp meter?  A couple of trains and some buildings/accesories won't exceed that will they?

Well, typically most folks run a 10A transformer for each power district.  I know some like to put welding currents on the rails, but after seeing firsthand what can happen with those, I stick to 10 amps.  Since you'd be metering each transformer output to the layout, I personally believe that the 10A range is appropriate.

stan2004 posted:

willygee posted:

Alibaba mfg asking question:

willygee, did you get a response?

The package from YB Electronics for their digital combo (voltage and current) panel meter suggests they have versions with voltage spans that apply to O-gauge.  To each his own on measuring down to 0.0V ("must have" vs. "nice to have") and need to attach a power source whether from a wall-wart or some kind of isolated power module, battery, whatever.  So digging up the YB Electronics catalog or whatever might be another line of inquiry.

 

I got several responses from suppliers but they kept emphasizing the 80 vac. The below response:

I suggested a working sample and would discuss qty upon its success. No communication sense

TedW posted:

So to give me something to do while I wait, what can I cobble together for a test load?  I have a dozen or so bulbs from converted passenger cars, but would need 3rd grade diagram on how to wire them for test. Is there something simpler?  How many amps are sufficient for test?  I use a cw80 n a couple sections of strait track on the bench. Or, I have an old Z xfrmr that could crank out a little power. I have a 12vac wall wart and a couple 12vdc laptop chargers for powering the meter(instrument burn) . 

What is the objective?  If the issue is to hook up the 2 meters and meter power supplies and confirm/test functionality you don't need to push it to 10 Amps to confirm functionality.  Just my opinion but if your combo meter setup functions with whatever modest test loads you have handy on the bench (say, 1 or 2 Amps from bulbs or whatever) then it will work for the 10 Amps on your actual layout...not that you'll ever actually encounter a sustained 10 Amps - your breaker or whatever will probably trip first!

YB electronics hard to find.

Chinese mfg panel meter link:

http://www.made-in-china.com/p...tal_Panel_Meter.html

That doesn't make it any easier!

 Total 16,093 products from about 1,609 Digital Panel Meter manufacturers & suppliers.  It would take days to sort through that list!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

That doesn't make it any easier!

 Total 16,093 products from about 1,609 Digital Panel Meter manufacturers & suppliers.  It would take days to sort through that list!

Yip..or pick a Co. and inquire...i did with this one.

http://chhongyin2015.en.made-i...t-and-AMP-Meter.html

I'm thinking the same as tedw that a matched pair of Yeeco meters from Amazon is the way to go. They look nice and are easy to read for a reasonable cost. jdennis says the Yeeco voltmeter is accurate. Just need to confirm that the Yeeco AC ammeter really is AC and accurate.

A word of caution for anyone who thinks it's easier to go with the proven solution of the American Hobby Distributors RRampMeter. If you're considering the less costly Version II with enclosure, the specs for the Version III say it will work below 7V due to having battery back-up. To me that implies the Version II will not work below 7V.

I have the version II and below 7 volts it will blink very rapidly. Does anyone know if I can somehow tap into the circuit to add a battery.

I sent a query about the "AC" meter in my previous post that Stan alertly pointed out said DC on the display.

It would appear that when the picture is updated that this will be an AC meter.

O Gauge Guy posted:

 

The only other thought I had was cannibalising several $10 multimeters that measure AC volts and amps for parts, then mounting the displays on the top of the panel and the rest of the meter underneath.

Looks like some better alternatives have been found above, and would probably be a better choice. However, I have seen a youtube video or two where someone has taken the cheap (and many times FREE) Harbor Freight meters and converted them to volt and amp meters. After Stan told me about their 'Free' coupons a few years ago, I now have several of these little red meters. 

cjack posted:

We have one with 205,000 on it in 12 years on an '05 Pilot and 51,000 in 15 years on an '02 Tundra. I drive the Tundra. The most I've spent on it is sulfated batteries. We've been looking. I figure if we look long and at enough, the prices may start to look just awful high, instead of crazy.

I had an employer furnished vehicle until I retired at the end of 2011 so my car didn't really get driven much until then, reason for the lower mileage. I am thinking about just spending the money to get it all fixed and keeping it a while longer as I really do like it. That's still a lot cheaper than a new one too!! My wife has a 2004 Passat turbo with only 30,000 miles on it. Still looks like it did when we bought it new. It's the one I drive just for fun sometimes (when she lets me that is). I imagine we will keep that one for some time yet.

The other night I was looking at Audi, BMW, Mercedes, VW, etc. and they all have some smaller SUVs for less than the Fords and Chevys. Most if not all were turbos too. Still not cheap, but as you say after looking for a while I guess you get somewhat used to the pricing and stop fainting after seeing the window stickers. Also, the Audi, BMW, etc. folks still have some that are MUCH MORE expensive than the Fords and Chevys!!

rtr12 posted:

The other night I was looking at Audi, BMW, Mercedes, VW, etc. and they all have some smaller SUVs for less than the Fords and Chevys. Most if not all were turbos too. Still not cheap, but as you say after looking for a while I guess you get somewhat used to the pricing and stop fainting after seeing the window stickers. Also, the Audi, BMW, etc. folks still have some that are MUCH MORE expensive than the Fords and Chevys!!

I had an Audi A6 twin-turbo, and don't let the purchase price fool you.  When it comes time for maintenance, they will break the bank!

Blow a relay in a Mercedes and you will need a second mortgage.  :-(

TedW posted:

As long as we're still talking digital panel meters and not "car talk". This is the best sedan I've ever owned. 

 

That's because it's still new, wait until the warranty runs out!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

rtr12 posted:

The other night I was looking at Audi, BMW, Mercedes, VW, etc. and they all have some smaller SUVs for less than the Fords and Chevys. Most if not all were turbos too. Still not cheap, but as you say after looking for a while I guess you get somewhat used to the pricing and stop fainting after seeing the window stickers. Also, the Audi, BMW, etc. folks still have some that are MUCH MORE expensive than the Fords and Chevys!!

I had an Audi A6 twin-turbo, and don't let the purchase price fool you.  When it comes time for maintenance, they will break the bank!

Yes, I have heard that about all of these cars mentioned. My daughter also had a BMW that about broke them, they traded it in on another one with the same results. They now have 2 VW's, GTI and a Jetta and the maint. costs are way less, so far anyway. 

TurtleLinez posted:

Blow a relay in a Mercedes and you will need a second mortgage.  :-(

I have heard that about these too. 

Thanks all for the warnings. I will probably not be getting any of the above. My wife's Passat turbo (supposedly the cheapened down version of the Audi A6, at least in 2004 when it was new) has been pretty good as far as maintenance and costs for repairs. But, it's really been pampered and has very low mileage. My wife treats it like a 3rd grand child.

Now back to the regular scheduled programming of 'Digital Meters'!!

I tested my latest arrival, a $4 eBay AC 0.0 to 199.9 volt meter in the ongoing quest for a nice digital meter for model train use.

Tested meter: Panel Mount LCD Display Voltage Measuring Voltmeter AC 0-200V T1, eBay: 252592584426

This one met my criteria as far as specifications for a meter, it reads all the way to zero and does tenths of a volt.  Obviously, it's separately powered, not an issue in my mind.

For testing, I use my Mastech true-RMS meter.  This MASTECH meter in use tracks my Fluke bench true-RMS meter to less than 1/10V on any of these measurements, so I trust it to deliver reasonably accurate readings for these tests.

Sadly, the results were not promising.  I first used a 1033 for a pure sine wave and calibrated the meter using the calibration screw on the back, over the 5-16 volt range it was able to track within a couple of tenths with my true-RMS meter.  Looked pretty good, so I fired up the Z-1000 with the Z-Controller and tried some measurements. 

NOT IMPRESSIVE!

As you can see, the results are hardly impressive when you compare the accurate readings to the eBay meter side by side.  These meters seem to be fairly close to useless for such purposes it would appear unless you have a pure sine-wave transformer feeding them.

If I calibrated it on the Z-1000 for full scale, it got a little closer, but was still several volts out most of the time.  It's obvious whatever scheme they use for measuring AC doesn't deal with non-linear waveforms.  The response of the meter to changes is also fairly slow, it takes seconds to settle.

On behalf of all of us who are looking for panel volt and amp meters, thank you Gunrunnerjohn for these tests. The results are clearly very disappointing. I must confess that I hadn't considered the issue of accuracy. You've saved me a lot of grief! It seems like the old saying is true - you get what you pay for! And clearly $4 is not paying enough.

I wouldn't mind betting there's some accurate analogue meters available for maybe $25+ without going to the expense of the AHD RRampMeter III with enclosure. However analogue meters take longer to read and are not as convenient as a quick glance at a digital readout. Another issue I noticed with analogue ammeters is that the scale is not always linear and it's hard to read below 2 or 3 amps. I guess we'll all keep looking and testing.

I have an AC ammeter coming, I'll do similar tests on that one.  I don't have high hopes, I think the non-linear waveforms screw up their measurements.

Is analog meter performance subject to the different waveforms?

Sadly, yes, but I don't think to the extend these digital meters are affected.

I

Yeeco 0-199.9VAC meter vs Fluke 115 RMS difference is .76 VAC, which is close enough for my purposes.

Dennis

Dennis, what kind of waveform is being measured?  The cheap meter I have works pretty good on a pure sine-wave, just not on the chopped waveform from an electronic transformer.  Also, you show one value, does the voltage track over a range of voltages from low to high?

Yes, moving the leads around does show different results, and I doubt the Yeeco 0-199.9VAC is true RMS, like my Fluke.  I agree these meters are not terribly accurate.  I'm using a 180W brick managed by a TPC-300.  I'm looking for a non-RMS meter to compare results.

On my eBay analog meter, it reads much lower, but I'm OK with that since I know how it relates to the Fluke.

Dennis

I'm guessing the meter is pretty much the same design as the one I got.  Looks exactly the same.  I should repeat my tests with the TIU controlling the voltage to see what I get there, maybe someday...

John,

Yeah, I have noticed different readings at various times, mostly the cheap meter displaying alternate voltages, while the Fluke is consistent.  Sampling different sections of track, Yeeco reads almost 1.5 vac lower at times, but mostly pretty closer to the Fluke.   If I find my non-RMS meter, I suspect it will read the same as the Yeeco.  No, I wouldn't trust the Yeeco on anything important, but for my generic, track-voltage, it meets my needs.   Perhaps there's big differences between Yeeco meter samples; I wouldn't be surprised.    However,  I prefer my cheapo analog, since I know exactly how it differs from RMS, and it better shows trends.  

Dennis