Dave Zucal posted:I take it the engineers that designed the Acela never pulled a camper or boat trailer with their vehicles. So they would never know they could use safety chains as a back up system should the draw bar fail. When so many lives are at stake, I hope they go a step farther and develop something to back up this coupling failure.
How many boat trailers or campers are being pulled at 125 mph or have the mass of an Acela trainset?
Rusty
Rusty, can you clarify your response? We seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Simple, you seem to think safety chains are the answer by equating a high speed trainset with boat and house trailers.
First: Boat and house trailers have considerable less mass than an Acela car.
Second: If a trailer breaks loose, it doesn't have rails to guide it.
Third: Boat and house trailers don't have another car on the hind end pushing.
Fourth: Nobody's towing these things at 125 mph.
Fifth: I don't believe any HST in the world has safety chains between the cars.
Sixth: There's no guarantee that safety chains would also hold up under the stress. All you need it one weak link.
Seventh: Exactly how many drawbar failures have there been on Acela?
Rusty
Looks like a part must have dropped out that connected the drawbar to the car. Not good. I suspect there is a 'torque value' to this fastener. Should never have happened. By the way, Amtrak has a new set of Acela replacements on order, and plans to take all these train sets out of service when the new ones arrive, probably before 2025.
As a person who works in Aviation, things break all the time. It's the reason I have a job. With inspections you hope to get everything but there's always a chance something will slips through.
I guess there must be redundancy, or those things are not critical. Otherwise, wouldn't there be planes dropping out of the sky on a regular basis?
Rule from
https://books.google.com/books...20tender&f=false
Many more interesting rules are listed in the link.
Rusty Traque posted:Fifth: I don't believe any HST in the world has safety chains between the cars.
Rusty
British Rail HSTs seem to do okay with just the regular chain couplers...
Mitch
Even thow the reports say the train was running at 125 mph, i doubt that was the case since it happened at Harve de Grace it would have been slowing to cross the Susquehanna River bridge. They do not cross that old bridge at 125 mph.
Thank you for posting that CSXJOE. Rusty, my comment was directed towards the design engineers failure to provide separation protection that safety chains provide. You added comparison between trains and vehicles and then attacked me. Imagine if you are passing from one car into the next when a draw bar fails and the cars separate. "Appropriate" sized safety chains prevent separation. That is why paragraph (b) in Joe's reply was written. When people are involved over a draw bar between a steam engine and tender or people are involved over the draw bars of the Acela, separation protection saves lives.
I fail to see how rusty attacked you. No names were called or insults hurled. He disagreed with your statement and then added factual evidence to back up his disagreement. He may be right, he may be wrong, but no attack was made.
Comparing trains and planes is pointless, completely different things. Like comparing oranges and elephants.
Planes do have redundant systems, and much more stringent requirements on materials making up their components. Between AMS specifications and NADCAP requirements in manufacturing and testing, aerospace is on a whole other level. One of the reasons why everything in aerospace is so expensive.
Planes also all go through mandatory annual inspections which guts them so that all systems can be inspected. You really can't compare the aviation industry to any other, it's a wholly different thing.
Dave Zucal posted:Thank you for posting that CSXJOE. Rusty, my comment was directed towards the design engineers failure to provide separation protection that safety chains provide. You added comparison between trains and vehicles and then attacked me. Imagine if you are passing from one car into the next when a draw bar fails and the cars separate. "Appropriate" sized safety chains prevent separation. That is why paragraph (b) in Joe's reply was written. When people are involved over a draw bar between a steam engine and tender or people are involved over the draw bars of the Acela, separation protection saves lives.
I agree, Rusty in no way attacked you.
Since the cars did not even separate enough to break the other connections between the two cars, what, exactly, would chains have accomplished? Chains between cars have slack--about as much slack as to allow a separation of about what you see in the pics.
Seems to me the engineers had it about right.
TexasSP posted:Planes also all go through mandatory annual inspections which guts them so that all systems can be inspected. You really can't compare the aviation industry to any other, it's a wholly different thing.
Agreed. Things like this still happen when a high pressure turbine disk from the engine flew off due to a sub-surface defect:
Chicago O'Hare: AA flight 383, 10/28/2016. Aborted during takeoff. One person seriously injured, 20 minor injuries during evacuation.
Would have been even more disastrous if the plane was in flight. The part was found about a mile away after it crashed through the roof of a UPS facility.
Rusty
Rusty Traque posted:Would have been even more disastrous if the plane was in flight. The part was found about a mile away after it crashed through the roof of a UPS facility.
Rusty
So did UPS scan the blade then put it on a truck for American Airlines maintenance?, But maybe there was no UPS bar code so blade sits in the warehouse until some one claims it!! 
(its been a long snowy day today folks)
http://www.railwayage.com/inde...ry-findings-fra.html
“Initial cause of separation is that the drawbar pin on coach 3554 had fallen downward and put pressure onto the retaining disk, and the bolt holding the retaining disk broke. The pin is approximately 3 inches in diameter and is pressed into the drawbar. A retaining disk is bolted under the pin. A bolt and washer are the secondary part this connection system. The bolt was found to be sheared off. The pin was found on top of a truck frame, along with the retaining disk. A new pin was pressed into the drawbar with a “porta power” and was welded in place.
“Further inspections will be conducted at Amtrak’s Bear, DE shops. FRA will be present, and Region 2 FRA MP&E inspector requested the [most recent] year of [documentation on] maintenance inspections for Amtrak coach cars 3215 and 3554.”
Mitch
M. Mitchell Marmel posted:http://www.railwayage.com/inde...ry-findings-fra.html
The pin was found on top of a truck frame, along with the retaining disk.
Interesting. Wonder how it got there. (rhetorical question).
Even more amazing is how it stayed there given the normal oscillations and harmonics of operation. I presume once the full report is released we'll see the time line of events.
I could add to Dave Zucal's discussion with an example of the above phenomenon and MY stupidity but this is a train forum.
Wonder why they just didn't design it so the drawbar pins are inserted from the top, and not the bottom?
smd4 posted:Wonder why they just didn't design it so the drawbar pins are inserted from the top, and not the bottom?
Not enough vertical clearance. Same reason the drawbar pins on steam locomotives are inserted from the bottom, thus they can be removed easily ever 90 days for quarterly inspections.
Thanks Hot.
smd4 posted:Wonder why they just didn't design it so the drawbar pins are inserted from the top, and not the bottom?
I'm with Steve on this, it just doesn't make sense , what holds the pin in position top side? (a big washer with a cotter pin) Threaded bolt? ????
Gregg posted:smd4 posted:Wonder why they just didn't design it so the drawbar pins are inserted from the top, and not the bottom?
I'm with Steve on this, it just doesn't make sense ,
As I stated above, there generally is insufficient vertical clearance to have such a coupling-pin inserted from above, just like on steam locomotive tender drawbars.
what holds the pin in position top side?
Generally, nothing do to a lack of vertical clearance, i.e. insufficient room to even access the top of such a pin, let alone install and/or remove such a retaining device.
(a big washer with a cotter pin) Threaded bolt? ????
Such drawbar retaining pins are inserted from the bottom, with some sort of retaining plate which keeps the pin in place, again just like on the huge steam locomotive drawbar retaining pins.
EDIT: New information from an FRA preliminary report of findings on the Feb 6 incident.
"Initial cause of separation is that the drawbar pin on coach 3553 had fallen downward and put pressure onto the retaining disc, and the bolt holding the retaining disk broke. The pin is approximately 3 inches in diameter and is pressed into the drawbar. A retaining disc is bolted under the pin. A bolt and washer are the secondary part (in) this connection system. The bolt was found to be sheared off. The pin was found on top of a truck frame, along with the retaining disk. A new pin Wass pressed into the drawbar with a 'Porta power' and was welded in place."
Interesting. I can see why welding the pin in place would cause problems down the road with any maintenance that had to be done.
The fact that the bolt was sheared off is odd, since it was only a retainer and not under shear stress as the pin is.
Hot Water posted:Kelly Anderson posted:Hey, that looks familiar! Does anybody know Doyle McCormack's location earlier today?
From the NY Post Article
Please don't remind me of that. I was Fireman westbound out of Del Rio, Texas when the drawbar pin fell one and the engine and tender then separated. Still gives me occasional nightmares.
I was in the baggage car and the excitement in there was really something with one crew member bouncing from one door to the other shouting "the engine broke, it's tits up! OH MY GOD!!"
A most interesting story. A few years ago when Amtrak had a national train day at Union Station, DC, they were offering Acela rides for 5 bucks. Never having been, I got in line and was glad I did. We were at 124MPH before we had to slow down and return to the station. A half hour or so round trip and unforgettable. I was thinking we were perfectly safe on a straightaway with no curves.
If only a marketing rep from Levi's Jeans had been on board to do a makeshift repair on the coupling
I work at the top of a Wilmington, DE rise, and while it's not up close, I always have one eye on what's on the NE Corridor going in and out of Wilmington Station. It can make a boring meeting a bit more interesting.
Today I saw something that made me think of this thread, having browsed through here recently. I'd bet it was this Acela trainset being towed to the Wilmington electric locomotive shops for maintenance and repair. It was headed northbound, and passed through the station without stopping. On the head end, and another on the rear, were a pair of Amtrak's fright type locomotives. After some research, I found them to likely be GP38H-3 types, of which I attached a picture (not mine.) It was likely this actual unit Amtrak 524, because I saw it a few weeks ago sitting in front of the old PRR Bell interlocking tower in Wilmington.
Anyone here know anything else about this move? Is it normal for the Acela trainsets to be towed like this? If you have them, I'd love some pictures, as this was one of my more interesting spots.
Amtrak 524 GP38H-3
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