Add Another Hobby Shop Closing To The List...

That is a very interesting article.Many of the reasons  the owner stated for closing, I have seen most people on this forum beg to differ with in many threads.Thanks for posting.Nick

We had 2 close in my town this past year.  Both were established shops.  

Same reasons as article, except both had 'net sales.

I see the main reason for hobby shops closing is that the cost of the hobby appeals to the privileged few. You have train manufacturers marketing $1500 engines that are worth $300 at best and offering $69.00 box cars that should be selling for $20.00 (thank you Menards). I believe many older Americans would be interested in model trains if they were reasonably priced. The demographic of those that buy the trains is  changing rapidly. Retirement, downsizing, relocations, health issues, changes in incomes, over capacity collections and the passing of much of the audience has an effect. Making the hobby affordable may possibly broaden its appeal.

Looks like most of the usual suspects to me,internet,video games...etc. Kids aren't interested in watching trains go around in a circle.

IMO the manufacturers focus on the "big ticket" items because, those of us that enjoyed trains as a kid when they were one of the best toys you could have, are the main customer base today.

You could sell a premium train set for $50 and a kid today will always pick the $400 I- Phone. Times have changed, its just that simple.

This is why the most successful hobby shops today have to have a strong online presence. They have to market train sales nationwide to reach all of us "older folks" who still enjoy the hobby because the interest carried over from our childhood.

Interesting News Story • Thanks for sharing this information.

  Click photo to enlarge

That's too bad. Looks like a great shop. 

Can I offer some hope (so you don't think I am being argumentative)?  This evening, my son (age 6) dropped the iPad, literally, when I asked if he wanted to run trains using the new DCS controller (new to us, I am sure he'll like the Legacy too when we addt hat eventually).  My wife had to drag the kids upstairs from the trainroom/playroom for bath time.   So I think there are a lot of kids who would still like trains, the problem is exposure.  The hobby has, for lack of a better way to put it, high entry costs -- not just dollars but also time commitment, space, knowledge, etc. 

I don't just see it as a money problem however.  As a parent of two boys I am struck by the fact that I see to many kids staring at tablet and not using their physical skills.  We make a point of allowing the kids to use technology but strictly limiting it.  As a culture, I think we will pay a price down the road when the current generation loses a set of skills because their entire childhood was spent in front of screens.  I think I am perhaps exaggerating only a bit.  Certainly, facility with technology is important but what's going to happen when the kids needs to change a battery in the car?  Is there an app for that?

Shame to see another store close.

Plus there's some generalizing going on.  My twin boys not only got into the hobby a little over 3 years ago, but at 10, they often want to play with the trains.  And they balance video games with us building a real layout.  And their friends often prefer to run trains than play the video games.  And our layout is just plywood and homasote at this point, so not even attractive.  

In my opinion, I often say 'good riddance' to any hobby shop closing its doors. Not always, but often. Why?  Because from experience, it's the guys who over-price, argue with the customer and/or do not take returns that suffer. These comments are general and not directed at the store in Wisconsin. 

At one time here in Sioux City there were 3 hobby shops, mine was one of them. I also sold craft stuff to the ladies and model airplanes too. The two best days were when I bought it and then 5 years later I sold it. That was when Jimmy Carter told us to turn off 1/2 our lights and turn down the heat. Really, I miss it (at times). We do have a local shop that will sell at full list, does not smile when you walk in, has been in the family since 1947. How he does it, I don't know. I won't go in.

I keep thinking I will win the lottery and get back in but then I come to.

Dick

It's always sad to hear about this sort of thing, but life goes on. Fifty years is a long time for any business. With the changing demographics and lack of good jobs for people hobbies get put on the back burner.

Add to the list K-Val Hobby in Buffalo NY. The owner Bob Shuh is 94 years old and still working! But he was interviewed in the Buffalo News and he said it is time to retire. I do not believe he is selling but just closing down. A great guy who knew his trains.

Whats really sad is the knowledge that goes away also.In Tacoma Wash. a store closed in the Lakewood area several years ago and I was in HO and DCC then and to this day I don't think there's anyone in that area that is knowledgeable as Dale and the guys at Pacific Railway Hobbies were, I owe a lot to Dale! 

I think that the people involved in the hobby buying high end trains probably buy from the big stores on the forum or similar because they can pay cash for their trains and save a considerable amount of money versus the local hobby shop which does not stock these types of trains as they appeal to very few of us predicated on the cost.I know that I would not want to make payments on my credit card for my hobby,I charge and pay the balance when the statement comes in.

Mikey

It has GOT to be about more than just the trains.   Without history, modeling, and other associated aspects, trains are nothing more than a dullards folly.  The creative part is what keeps it interesting:  building, assembling, and yes, even repairing.  You have to set a scene, define a history, and capture a moment.   Without these things, I myself would have no interest in the hobby.  My layout is complete fiction, but there are real, interesting, and sometimes educational things on it.  My parents and grandparents drove the cars, shopped int he stores, stood at the stations and rode the trains.  

You want to know why the kid always picks up the iPad?  The scenery changes.  They have access to thousands of games - the variety is astounding.  They will only play 'Angry Birds I (and there are at least 20 of them...) for a day or two - then they get bored.  That's what kids do.  It was easier to get bored in the 50's, 60's, and 70's - that much is certain, but regardless of the hobby/interest, the scenery has to change.  It can't be the same train on the same loop with the same whistle and the same bell all the time.   

This year I added better buildings, lighting, cars, people, streets, etc.  I also went nuts with the track plan running it around the entire room, but the most intriguing part to the kids was all of the stuff getting built around the trains.   And these are useful skills - it helps to be handy with a soldering iron, glue, tweezers, knives, paint, etc.  I didn't learn enough of this stuff as a kid, so I pay a price now, but it fascinates me.  And I don't care if you're 7 or 70 - melting metal to connect wires is pretty cool...

It also helps to emphasize the history aspect of it.  What railroads were, what they meant to the evolution of the country, and what they are today.   I blew my kids mind on a trip to Ohiopyle and explained to them that the historic train station we were standing at was on the SAME LINE as the train we road in Frostburg MD. - it was one of the regular stops and my ancestors used to ride it.  My uncles and grandfathers worked for the Railroads - a few were engineers.  You have to put a story behind it - create a curiosity.  

And guess what... it doesn't always work.  Sometimes, with all of the above, it's still not enough to pull them away from the PS3.  Today.   It ebbs and flows.  But the REAL stuff is what keeps it interesting beyond just watching the trains go.  It's one of the reasons I roll my eyes whenever Lionel rolls out things like the 'Monopoly' cars.  That's not real history.  If you want to play Monopoly, play Monopoly, but don't stick it on a box car and expect kids to flock to it.  

I guess in the end what I'm saying is that the layout has to be constantly evolving/changing and it helps to have meaning behind it.  If I had to watch the polar express run around the Christmas tree more than about a dozen times, I'd want to put a bullet in my head too...   

Ladies & Gents,

    One of the things we have to face is the fact a lot of the older train store owners are not being able to pass down their business to the next generation like this mans father did for him.   It's no longer something the younger generations want to own and operate.  My buddy Frank at the Iron Horse wanted me to purchase his Train Shop and continue on with his established business, if I had been 30 years younger I might just have done it.  He even offered to stay with the business for as long as I needed him, it was not many years later he passed away.  His kids really never wanted much to due with the business, and I knew he was disappointed about it.  My friend Dave who owns Bill & Walts in White Oak, Pa has nobody to take over his business either, and Dave is older than I am, and after Dave moves upstair his business will probably go the same way as the Iron Horse.  I am afraid it is the end of an era here in Western Pa, these family owned small business, will disappear when their owners are gone.  It's a shame the next generation wants nothing to due with their parents way of life.

PCRR/Dave

Here is a key phrase from that story:

While sales grew steadily through the mid-2000s, Greenfield News never developed the capability to sell more than a minimal amount of product over the Internet.

No hobby shop today is going to succeed without a strong and effective internet presence.

Rich,

Funny you you should say that - I was at my LHS several months ago, the one I go in only when I absolutely need some small item "right now," where they charge full retail on everything, never smile, don't take returns and never say thank you.  They had just told the trains manager he was being laid off and he was bad-mouthing the store. He said the owner said he would NEVER do Internet sales as this would mean he would have to discount to compete. I just went in there as I needed a piece of Atlas O and the new guy told me they're closing down the trains dept. because of a steady drop off in customers over the past few years.  Gotta say this is almost like that bad joke: Experiment - cut off all the frogs arms and legs and call frog; frog doesn't move; conclusion - frog is deaf. Hate to say it, but I wonder if there's a decline in customers or just smarter consumers. 

Yes,  webmaster, sad but very true.

I used to be a staunch supporter of LHS's, never bought online, not so anymore.  Most have closed around my area.  Ill tempered owners, take it or leave it attitudes. large deposits on preorders. You can walk out of the shop with a new item and if there is a problem you are told to send it to the manufacturer there isn't anything they can do.  Well, things being that way, you might as well shop the net and at least get a good deal.   I used to buy strictly from area shops, I figured the extra cost was worth the exchange of information and knowledge.  Not true in my area anymore.

A couple of things stood out to me. First, 15000 sq ft is a big retail space, and usually comes at a pretty hefty cost. Second, it is pretty darned hard to make money nowadays stocking 2000 different magazines, and the fact that they are doing it (along with the insignificant web presence) tells me that this operation's business model was stuck firmly in the past.

The hobby business operates with margins that are extremely unforgiving of poor or outdated business practices.

Jeff C

Change.....the only constant..........

Look at retail in another 10 years........we will all be sitting around talking about driving to a store and picking our own groceries and then driving them home.....a waste of hours!!!! How funny we were!!!!

Not a topic to bore folks with on a model train forum. But I was an analyst for a top 5 bank. The retail marketplace is just starting to evolve. Sorry..... 

quote:

Look at retail in another 10 years........we will all be sitting around talking about driving to a store and picking our own groceries and then driving them home.....a waste of hours!!!! How funny we were!!!!

In my area there are two supermarket chains that offer in-home shopping. You place your order on the internet. Store employees pick it, and your order is delivered.

IMHO, the service is great for those who cannot get to a grocery store. For the rest of us, its more sitting in front of a computer, barely moving, not seeing people face to face.

quote:

First of both Lionel and MTH will tell you the bread and butter of their business is the Sub $300 starter set.  I know for sure that my LHS did a pretty good business on a lot of the LC and MTH starter sets this holiday.  The reason we don't hear about it, is 95% of the folks on here are not the target audience.  They are buying the higher end models for the most part.

Its not just the cost of the starter set. It the cost of the add-ons. Track, switches, additional rolling stock, and such. The cost versus play value just isn't there for most folks.
From what I've read here, there are obvious quality differences between a piece of Lionel rolling stock and the stuff being sold by Menards. Still, the hobby would be more attractive if Lionel could get the prices of their add-ons down some.

On the other hand, high prices are good for those of us who wish to do some thinning. Makes their stuff's prices look more attractive.

As I have read above - a 6 year old with an Ipad is too young. My grandson comes over for a weekend and he is even in the bathroom with the thing. One of my co-workers got so fed up with his kids and the Ipad that he smashed it. Ipads and other devices in the hands of the too young stunt mental growth. Since we live in a fact free society, this problem is only an opinion and things will get worse with mass denial increasing. As far as people needing history to help appreciate the hobby, my son and his friends put it this way: "We don't need to know who and when electricity was invented - get over it. They never taught us how it's made anyway, just when and who. Maybe we need to know who invented the cell phone, but that information isn't going to change anything either." H2 History Channel tells me this rapid techno change is the result of either receiving or reverse engineering alien technology..... What hobby can beat that?

Well, he could go back to his roots and start selling moonshine in the back room!

You mean they had a show on reverse engineering alien model trains?  Did it have the guy with the exploded hair?

Rusty

Gentlemen,

   I definitely agree with part of what Rich said, the internet is definitely important to these modern small businesses, however IMO there is a lot more to it, Bill & Walts is rated the #1 Hobby Shop in Pa, David the owner is a serious business man and major reason for how his business operates, he definitely has a massive internet sales operation, we will see what happens to Bill & Walts as a business when David is not longer running it.  The internet is only a business tool, the owner not being able to pass down his business to the next generation, is the other half of the equation, as to why these small business shut down, profitable with the internet or not.

PCRR/Dave

Two or three main reasons why the traditional hobby shops are closing:

1. The shop owners have been in the business a long time and are now looking forward to some quality and well-deserved retirement in what are still uncertain economic times for many or most. And, to be perfectly frank, I doubt that the industry itself is providing much of an incentive for them to keep the doors open.

2. The most avid long-term hobbyists--those who have long comprised the base of this hobby (and O gauge in particular)--have themselves reach the age where they (a) have pretty much gotten most everything they wanted to get, (b) are at the point where current or future income or health issues are a major concern

3. The vast majority of younger generations (say 40ish and under) were not really exposed much to trains, real or otherwise, and due to career commitments and a rapidly shrinking middle class, they really have a somewhat diminished interest or involvement with creative hobbies of any type.

In my opinion, the Internet is somewhat less of a factor, although it certainly has made buying easier for those already involved in the hobby who know what they are looking for and where to go for it.

I believe that the cost of the hobby is relevant but Allan's explanation makes the most sense.

If I may add one further comment. The prestige high tech item of the 50's were model trains, chemistry and erector sets. The high tech items of today are ipads, computers, tablets, and video games. The digital age has steadily transformed the USA into a nation of spectators.  Want proof?  Set up a large train layout in a major city during the Christmas season. Thousands will flock to see it but few have the desire to build it. Again the spectator syndrome affliction proves out.

Allan's comments are spot on in that they're addressing the ROOT CAUSE of traditional hobby shops closing.

But the whole thing about the Internet is important, because shops need to BROADEN their reach into a shrinking demographic in order to sustain revenue.  And the Internet allows shops to do exactly that.  No web presence = a sure recipe for failure today/tomorrow.

When we read these stories about shops closing, there's often a common thread.  A year or two ago, a great hobby/craft shop closed nearby in Doylestown, PA... and there were lots of parallels to the article about Greenfield News & Hobby.  We hear the owners speak of declining interest in products which equates to decreasing sales.  The owners are often quoted as feeling like dinosaurs.  But we don't hear that those owners made any attempt to REACH out to a broader audience to make up for the declining local market.

Charlie from Nassau Hobbies and Pat from Pat's Trains are two "local hobby shops" that I never heard of prior to their participation on this forum.  Mr. Muffin's Trains is now another relatively new shop that's doing things right by communicating here on the forum.   And Hennings Trains who just celebrated their 75th Anniversary in business is bringing great added-value items to a broader audience here on the forum as well.  I buy from all four of these "shops" (among others), but I'm only "local" to one of them (Hennings Trains).  I wonder how ANY of those four shops would be doing now, if they hadn't reached out to a broader audience.  I recall Pat mentioning he shipped 65+ Big Boys.  How many do you think shipped to folks living in Wheeling, West Virginia? 

I can understand that owners get tired after being in business for decades, and during that time they were able to sustain their business with a local audience that's now getting smaller.  But as we've alluded to time and time again, the all-age toy train demographic who participates in the hobby for the long haul is a thing of the past.  And if shops don't respond to that harsh changing reality, then yeah... they're gonna see sales dip, and they're gonna eventually decide to close their doors.

David

Dennis L,

    I agree with you about the spectator syndrome, most of these young people today have no idea how to build or repair anything, even their homes, let alone engineer and build a complex O gauge layout.  Tradesmen in the near future will be in such demand that if I had a young son, he would 1st become a tradesman of some kind, and then and engineer with a Law degree.   Small businesses are in serious trouble today.  Our train/hobby stores are just one of these small business entities.

PCRR/Dave

Yes, the increasingly fewer-in-number train stores and hobby shops that are doing well today are likely to continue doing well into the future, in part because they are among the "survivors." Hobbyists who want/need something are, as a result, pretty much steered to these establishments, in person, via ads, or online, somewhat by default.

For some enduring hobby enterprises it's the result of location (important with most any brick-and-mortar business venture). For others it's the result of first-class ownership who knows, understands, and employs solid business practices; who knows the hobby; and who knows, understands, and can relate to his/her customers. And for others it's a matter of national or even international "reach" and reputation...often the result, over time, of online exposure (such as on this forum...from the standpoint of train sales, you can wonder where some of these fine folks would be today if it wasn't for the exposure they receive here).

Lots of factors to be considered, but the trend is somewhat inevitable and probably irreversible. But I can say for a fact that we old-timers in this hobby sure have enjoyed one heck of a fine ride in recent years!

I showed my wife this discussion, and she had just read the latest Lou Palumbo column in CTT (we get both magazines).  Her question is that when kids come over our house, they go nuts for the trains.  But why aren't starter sets sold in many of the regular toy stores?  I mentioned to her that the trains didn't do well in Target, but her response is the Target demographic is too cheap.  Here in suburban DC, for example, there are a couple of higher end toy stores in Rockville and Cabin John, but there are no O gauge or G gauge Thomas sets (to take one example).  Why not was her question?  I don't have a good answer to that question, but we would potentially introduce more kids to the hobby, and create a subsequent market for hobby shops (where more dedicated modelers would shop) if there were a higher number of sales of these basic starter sets.  I think Lionel gets this to some degree -- hence the LC+.  May not make sense to us -- we want a Legacy, TMCC, or DCS controller for everything -- but for a kid it makes a lot of sense.  Would be nice to see those LC+ sets, as well as MTH and WBB sets, in some of these higher-end toy stores. 

Kids may go nuts over the elaborate layouts they see when they visit a train person's home, Christmas display, or train show. But for the most part, that isn't something their family can purchase. There are few who have the space, time, skills, and money to build their own.
How many people are going to allow their 12 year old to use portable power tools to construct a table, or even a soldering iron to connect two wires?
The things we were allowed to do as children would probably be considered child neglect today.