Adhesive for ballasting water-sensitive ties?

Ed Kelly posted:

Hi, 

After hand laying 30+  switches, I have taken the easy way out and purchased some ready-to-lay switches.  The ties in these switches are hardboard and will absorb water.  I plan to spray paint the track and switches with Rustoleum Camouflage Flat Earth Brown.  This may or may not seal the ties.  It certainly won't seal the bottom of the ties where the glue-water mixture will creep in by capillary action.

Why would THAT be a problem? Arn't the ties glued down anyway?

My question:  Is there a non-aqueous adhesive that I can use to glue the ballast?

I would think that Matt Medium would be the best solution for "gluing" ballast in place. First moisten the ballast with cheap 70% alcohol, then apply the thinned Matte Medium with pipettes.

Thanks,

Ed

HW,

The switches are not glued but spiked down.  To the best of my knowledge, matte medium is water based.

Thanks,

Ed

Your best bet would be a flat solvent based  laquer made by Rustoleum, Krylon or others.  Experiment first. Spray some and quickly add ballast then spray again as needed.

Ed Kelly posted:

HW,

The switches are not glued but spiked down.  To the best of my knowledge, matte medium is water based.

Yes, but so what. What are you expecting the Matte Medium, in the ballast, to do to the ties?

Thanks,

Ed

 

HW, the ties absorb water but do not dry to their original size.

Jim, the flat solvent based lacquer sounds like a solution.

Thanks,

Ed

Ed Kelly posted:

HW, the ties absorb water but do not dry to their original size.

Then how do other modelers, both in HO and O, hand-lay their track? I've always seen the ties glued down first, then block-sanded for flatness, then stained/painted/weathered, then the rail layed, then ballasted. Since they are hard wood ties, at least they better be hard wood, I simply can not seen how a little thinned Matte Medium would/could affect the ties .

Jim, the flat solvent based lacquer sounds like a solution.

Thanks,

Ed

http://ampersandart.com/the-story-of-hardbord.php.

Golden’s Acrylic GAC 100 is what most artists use to seal it for painting (as a canvass)

A primer is prefered as far as paint goes. Primers job is sealing, unless you need a clear coating, then a product called "sanding sealer" MIGHT work on hardboard as well as it does on wood. The small size makes anything questionable. (Ties right? And not a "plate" with additions on it?)

HW, It's hardboard, not hard wood. Hardboard, fiberboard, pegboard, its Masonite, but I've heard it called lots of things.

  I'm sure you likely know, but its wood dust, maybe with other fiber,and glue basically. Pressed and cured, and sometimes tempered with oil and heat, and it doesn't usually like to be wetted in any way, it contracts causing warp, surface change, flaking, etc. So with the cost of a switch in mind, sealing might not be a bad idea.  (But test that theory before you do the full job with anything.)

Lacquer would be about the fastest drying common seal you can use but is thin and penetrates. Light coats (dusting) will penetrate less, and pull less at the surface as it cures. There are lacquer primers too.

How about a thin coating of paraffin wax brushed on.

Id take some of your hardboard ties and try ballasting them with conventional means. Maybe they wont wind up the way you think. If they do swell up let everybody know what you figure out

Hi,

I had another thought:  Use an eyedropper to apply solvent-based matte polyurethane between the ties just like we do with the water/glue mixtures.  I have read that the solvent-based polyurethanes yellow over time.  Your thoughts, please.

Thanks,

Ed

Hot Water posted:

Ed Kelly posted:

HW, the ties absorb water but do not dry to their original size.

Then how do other modelers, both in HO and O, hand-lay their track? I've always seen the ties glued down first, then block-sanded for flatness, then stained/painted/weathered, then the rail layed, then ballasted. Since they are hard wood ties, at least they better be hard wood, I simply can not seen how a little thinned Matte Medium would/could affect the ties .

Actually, the ties used by almost all to hand lay track have been made of sugar pine which is very porous and also a soft wood.  Few use any hard woods since spiking to hard woods tends to inflict considerable pain to the person doing the spiking - the red oak ties on my layout will testify to that fact.

"Hardboard, fiberboard, pegboard, its Masonite,"  ---  odd choice for switches to be built on - who sells them make that way?  I'd worry a bit about their long term gauge stability.

You can probably seal the ties with the suggested Rustoleum prior to mounting them to the roadbed. If glued/mounted already, carefully painting them might also still work. Also using plastic transfer pipettes to add the ballast adhesive to control location and amounts should help to obviate concerns.

In my shop I paint masonite/MDF all the time. For your application I would spray with a cheap clear rattle can satin finish and hold the can 12 inches away. I would do 2 coats then primer. This technique the spray will be almost dry when it hits the surface and collect on the top giving very little if any penetration thus no swelling. I would then proceed with the weathering options of your choice. I would recommend doing once section as a test before I moved forward.

Hi Ed. Just curious - who's ready built turnouts are you purchasing?   I'm surprised they are using something other than suger pine ties as hardboard would be tought to spike into.   If you go with turnouts using hardboard ties I recommend painting them (top and bottom) with Rustolium camouflage spray paint prior to putting them down on the roadbed.

 After hand building turnouts on my last railroad I discovered Right-O-Way cast frogs, points, and guard rails .  They save a lot of time, look great, and are relatively inexpensive  compared with other options.  One labor saving element is that you don't have to file the stock rails in the area of the points as the cast points tuck neatly into the web - just like the prototype.  At last count I've laid over 100 turnouts using ROW components.

Ed

Hi Ed, et al.,

I built about 30 switches using Lou Cross castings.  I thought I would save some time and use the switches from Signature Switch, Brad Strong's company.  The switches are soldered to pc ties and then the pc ties are glued to a hardboard tie base.  So far, I have not ballasted anything except track, no switches.  I did experiment with the tie material by soaking it in water overnight.  It swelled and after removing it and letting it dry for several days, I found that it did not return to its original dimensions.  Hence, my question.  My last post provides my latest thinking.  Use solvent based polyurethane and an eyedropper and apply the poly between the ties like you would apply water/glue mixture.  The switches are already down and wired.  There is no taking them up at this point.

I use the Rustoleum Camo Earth Brown to paint the track and ties but it does not get to the underside since I spray after the track is laid and wired.  For new switches, I would certainly spray the bottoms with the Rustoleum Camo paint.  My problem is what do I do with the switches already laid.  Suggestions, please.

Thanks,

Ed

Ed Kelly posted:

I did experiment with the tie material by soaking it in water overnight.  It swelled and after removing it and letting it dry for several days, I found that it did not return to its original dimensions.  

I think that's a little extreme in the testing department; gluing down ballast should not be that extreme depending on the glue percentage mixture and application means/amounts.  I always minimized the amount of ballast glue being applied to avoid run-off, etc.

Hence, my question.  My last post provides my latest thinking.  Use solvent based polyurethane and an eyedropper and apply the poly between the ties like you would apply water/glue mixture.  

That should work, but no guarantees to 100% sealing either.  I could send you a supply of transfer pipettes....a bit larger than an eyedropper...

I use the Rustoleum Camo Earth Brown to paint the track and ties but it does not get to the underside since I spray after the track is laid and wired.  For new switches, I would certainly spray the bottoms with the Rustoleum Camo paint.

Seems like the future issues might be solved with that Rustoleum......

I said to  use the laquer as the adhesive, don't get any water near it.  I wouldn't depend on paint sealing the tie from any moisture especially with paint. Your layout, your call.

Marty, Jim,

I was going to use the poly or liquid lacquer as an adhesive.  Once the ballast is "glued", there is no need for further applications of water, paint, etc

Thanks for the suggestions,

Ed

Try strips of two-sided adhesive carpet tape. Place the tape under the ties and stick the ballast to it. I use it to secure roadbed and track on my layout. It hasn't moved or released in 14 years. But is easy to pull up if you need to make changes. 

The "Rusty" might be worth experimenting with on scraps. It tends to be thick, but takes a long time to dry so no telling how the penetration and its non-water wetness might affect things.. It's also got an oil base that should really do well against future water concerns. Just due to the nature of hardboard, I'm not sure how well it would respond to any wetness, not just water's.

  Make a call or contact for suggestions to the mfg., Also find out if it's tempered or regular. Tempered surfaces should have a greater resistance to wetness unless the tempered surface was milled or otherwise compromised.

I'd like to see a photo of the things now; maybe a link?

I like the tape idea for the ones fully sealed.