What is the fast circuit breaker used in the PH180’s? I’d like to find the equivalent from Mouser or DigiKey if possible.
"What is my ZW not doing for me now that another transformer would do?" TEXASSP, what a great question! A new transformer would do the following for this conventional operator: 1) Blow whistle, ring bell without the engine slowing down, 2) Provide additional power for a few engines that need it, 3) Provide "peace of mind" that my trains are fully protected.
These benefits wouldn't be enough for me to purchase a ZW-L at the going retail price, but might be if I can make a deal on the one from the collection. I'll be giving this issue more thought before "pulling the trigger". Thanks to all for your valuable advice.
John
The GN Man posted:What is the fast circuit breaker used in the PH180’s? I’d like to find the equivalent from Mouser or DigiKey if possible.
I believe the PH180s have electronic breakers that are part of the unit's built-in circuitry.
PSX-ACs may be the closest thing available that are not part of the PH-180s internal circuitry. Last I checked they are around $50 each at Tony's Train Exchange. Charles Ro used to have them for a bit less, if they still have them?
I use PH-180s, PSX-ACs and TVS diodes on my layout. Probably a bit of overkill with the PSXs and PH-180s, but no electronic blowouts so far. 
The PSX-AC's trip faster than the PH-180s, but to be fair they are set to 8 amps and the PH-180 is 10 amps I believe. The PSX is adjustable to 3 or 4 different amperage settings, but does not one for 10 amps specifically.
There are also magnetic breakers which I know little about, but some have said they are also fairly expensive. I have never looked into these.
There are the older Lionel #91 (not sure about the part number) breakers which can be some times found on ebay for a reasonable price. I will defer to others here as well, I know little about these other than some folks here say they are quite fast.
Then there is the fast blow fuse, probably the least expensive, but is also a constant expense.
Along with some of the others here, I am not a fan of the old transformers for running modern electronic trains. However as they have also pointed out if one does use them, proper protection is a definite must.
Also, TVS diodes would be a very good thing to add in with any/all of the above items. Highly recommended! There is a Digikey part number in a link below for the TVS diode that is most often recommended here.
I used to run a PW ZW with fuses, but I got tired of changing fuses. Then, I had an engine short out, even with the fuses. That was the final straw. I bought myself the ZW-L, and now I am at ease when I run my modern equipment.
RickO posted:RickM46 posted:OK folks, since I got into the hobby in 2014, I have seen pictures of 180w bricks together with a CW80. So how do you attach one to a track or how do you control the voltage to the track?
You may be thinking of the GW180 : http://www.lionel.com/products...transformer-6-37947/
This is the same concept as Lionels ZW c powered by external 180w bricks, just less power.
If your talking solely the 180w brick you can connect it to a TPC unit or the new Legacy powermaster which enables you to vary the voltage from the Legacy remote.
Otherwise, if your only running command you can connect it directly to the track as they are designed to put out a constant 18v.
That raises a question (and it is just my curiousity), if you wanted to run 2 conventional engines at different speeds, wouldn't that require a legacy controller and a tpc or powermaster unit for each of the isolated loops? Or could one legacy controller address 2 different track units and set the voltage on them independently? I assume if you didn't mind the engines running on the same voltage, you could feed the output of a single power master to the two isolated loops....or am I wrong? (and I am asking that in part because I am at that point of deciding things like this, with how to power a layout).
bigkid posted:if you wanted to run 2 conventional engines at different speeds, wouldn't that require a legacy controller and a tpc or powermaster unit for each of the isolated loops?
I assume if you didn't mind the engines running on the same voltage, you could feed the output of a single power master to the two isolated loops....or am I wrong?
Yes and yes.
CarGuyZM10 posted:I used to run a PW ZW with fuses, but I got tired of changing fuses. Then, I had an engine short out, even with the fuses. That was the final straw. I bought myself the ZW-L, and now I am at ease when I run my modern equipment.
No one here is advocating running with JUST fuses. In addition to over current protection provided by fuses and circuit breakers, you need voltage spike protection from TVS diodes.
I'm no expert, but I just use the 180W bricks with the Lionel 34120 Direct Lockon. Never had a problem. The 34120 provides instant power interruption when a short circuit is detected, has a LED indicator, and automatic power reset/restoration.
I know the 180 bricks have a terrific circuit breaker built in, and the 34120 may be redundant, but it's cheap and I feel better with double protection. Also, I've had the 34120 breaker cut in before the 180 brick did. Maybe it's a tad more sensitive, I don't know. I also like the LED indicator on the 34120 so I can tell visually what's going on.
The ZW-L is cool, for sure, but I'm with GRJ on this, it provides no real operational advantage compared to what I'm using, at least on my layout.
I have a ZW to control accessories, but primarily use a number of small starter set transformers, which you can get very cheaply, to provide dedicated power to individual accessories.
RickO posted:bigkid posted:if you wanted to run 2 conventional engines at different speeds, wouldn't that require a legacy controller and a tpc or powermaster unit for each of the isolated loops?
I assume if you didn't mind the engines running on the same voltage, you could feed the output of a single power master to the two isolated loops....or am I wrong?
Yes and yes.
Thank you
As it has been recommended.....MODERN Locomotives MODERN Power. Use those old PW-ZW"s for Lights etc. Nick
I want to replace my transformer and I was wondering if a180 brick would be enough. I have a one track main with 6 yard tracks. I also run dcs and TMCC and sometimes I lash up two locomotives.
Would the one brick be enough?
Dave
In terms of power requirements, can someone summarize what "modern" equipment draws, i.e. 2 motored diesel, large steam, small steam, smoke units, etc...?
My PH180 puts out a bit over 18V with no load at the rails. A modern steamer with smoke an 4 incandescent illuminated cars, and I see about 17.5V; add a second steam locomotive with smoke and I see about 16.5V at the rails. I don't believe this is reaching the capacity of the 180, so why the voltage drop?
Thanks,
Jim
david1 posted:I want to replace my transformer and I was wondering if a180 brick would be enough. I have a one track main with 6 yard tracks. I also run dcs and TMCC and sometimes I lash up two locomotives.
Would the one brick be enough?
Dave
Probably, unless your main is very long, I'd say. You can try a single one and see if it works. If it comes up short, just get another and add it on.
Jim Harrington posted:My PH180 puts out a bit over 18V with no load at the rails. A modern steamer with smoke an 4 incandescent illuminated cars, and I see about 17.5V; add a second steam locomotive with smoke and I see about 16.5V at the rails. I don't believe this is reaching the capacity of the 180, so why the voltage drop?
Thanks,
Jim
How large is your layout?
How many pairs of feeders does it have and what guage wire?
I run a 14 GA buss with feeders to the track every 10 feet.
I have a 10×16 layout with 2 main lines and 7 remote switches all powered by 1 180w brick.
Power at any spot on the layout is the same as the output terminals on my tpc unit.
I typically run 3 scale steamers with smoke on pulling 15 + car freights or 6 car lighted passenger trains without issue.
Also any need for the direct lockon?
Dave
david1 posted:Also any need for the direct lockon?
Dave
The lockon degrades the DCS signal so do not use it.
There are the older Lionel #91 (not sure about the part number) breakers which can be some times found on ebay for a reasonable price. I will defer to others here as well, I know little about these other than some folks here say they are quite fast.
Lionel used stock #91 for a circuit breakers both prewar and postwar. I wouldn't use a prewar #91. I have been using Postwar Lionel #91 adjustable, electromagnetic circuit breakers for almost fifty years. I put one on each "hot" terminal that is in use. This is because on some Lionel transformers it is possible to accidentally create a circuit between two hot terminals that would not be protected by a breaker on the common.
I even use the breakers on small transformers like the 1033 because they are manual reset. Kids can operate the trains with little supervision because there would be no problem created by leaving a short unattended.
They do trip instantly.
There is one caveat: It is possible to turn the #91 adjusting knob down so tight that the breaker cannot trip. I have had several in my possession where that was done. The electromagnet overheated and melted the case.
As far as using old transformers is concerned: I will not use a metal cased transformer. I just think it's a bad design for safety. Other than that, what are the inherent dangers of using an old transformer?
Certainly any older transformer should be inspected before use, and perhaps periodically after that.
I think some of the areas to watch for are:
Power cord insulation
Rollers
Circuit breaker
Condition of whistle switch, especially return springs*
Condition of the paper wrap around the primary**
* - a whistle switch can get caught in a position that shorts the transformer. This position is not protected by the internal breaker. Apparently the intermittent nature of the short under normal use is not a problem. But if the switch sits there....... not so good. (Yes, I've seen it)
** - if the paper wrap is damaged, I consider the transformer a parts unit.
CAPPilot posted:david1 posted:Also any need for the direct lockon?
Dave
The lockon degrades the DCS signal so do not use it.
Thanks for the tip,
Dave
I couldn't find these documents (Photo and instructions) on the Postwar Lionel #91 breaker earlier:
Attachments
Images (1)
Files (1)
Thanks for that picture C.W., I have not seen one of those before. What I was thinking of before was either the postwar version or something entirely different that I was confusing this with? I know very little about the earlier pre/post war stuff, other than what I have learned here.
david1 posted:CAPPilot posted:david1 posted:Also any need for the direct lockon?
Dave
The lockon degrades the DCS signal so do not use it.
Thanks for the tip,
Dave
I use a lockon for the reasons I outlined above, including extra protection and LED indicator, and really like it, but I don't run DCS, so that's no consideration.
I saw on Eric Seigel's latest video that he uses a Lionel lockon unit on his layout. He runs DCS as well as Lionel, so......
C W Burfle posted:There are the older Lionel #91 (not sure about the part number) breakers which can be some times found on ebay for a reasonable price.
"Sometimes" and "reasonable" are not today! $50 (incl shpg) for a used one on the bay. Lots of the older style, but they aren't the same at all, from what I'm reading. Guess I'll just keep watching.
"Sometimes" and "reasonable" are not today! $50 (incl shpg) for a used one on the bay. Lots of the older style, but they aren't the same at all, from what I'm reading. Guess I'll just keep watching.
EBay sellers can ask whatever they please. You don't have to buy. If I list a 2055 steam engine for $1,000 does that have any impact on a fair and reasonable price for those engines?
I'd peg the value of a Postwar Lionel #91 circuit breaker in nice shape at $15-20. I guess shipping would increase that. Buy at a train show to avoid shipping.
Yikes, for $50 you can get a brand new PSX-AC. Also, you can always make the ebay seller an offer. My wife has offered half or less for a few things (household decor stuff) and sometimes they accepted her offer. Doesn't hurt to try, especially if it's been there for a while.
That's kind of like good used ZW's around here, which sell for $200-$225 or so. I can buy 2 PH-180 bricks with more power and excellent breakers for less than that. Of course I have command control only, but also DCS so I could run conventional with the variable channels if the need ever arises.
I prefer the ZW-L for several of the reasons listed above but there is more. You can reset the circuit breaker from the remote if the switched breaker does not pop. You also have 200 speed steps that makes older pullmor motored engines work just amazingly well. I understand cost is a factor but the ZW-L is well worth the money.
Alan, they are a great product. 18 volts at 10 amps. Wow.
Just for the halibut, I took a look on the internet for the Postwar #91 Circuit Breaker - none to be had; did see a #92 for about $60. Any suggestions on possibly a dealer??
RickM46 posted:Just for the halibut, I took a look on the internet for the Postwar #91 Circuit Breaker - none to be had; did see a #92 for about $60. Any suggestions on possibly a dealer??
Rick, Yes, they seem to be rare. There's a grand total of ONE on the Bay at the moment at $44.00 (overpriced, IMO). I've looked for these from time to time online and never see many listed.
How about posting a WTB here on the forum?
Postwar Lionel #92 circuit breakers are not magnetically operated and are not adjustable. As I recall they do trip at much lower current levels than the internal breakers in postwar Lionel's biggest transformers, but they do take time for the bimetallic strip to heat up and trip. I don't recall seeing an amperage spec.
They are manual reset.
These breakers look very similar to the #90 control buttons that were made at the same time. Sometimes people mix them up.
#91 breakers are not rare. I see them on Ebay and at train shows fairly regularly.
I bought 2 ZW-L's on the bay for 600.00 each. Brand new in the box never unpacked until I got them. Shop around, the deals are out there. I have read though that they may not work with DCS. I hope that's not true.
Since I originally started the post, I have read all the great information. As some of you suggested, I decided to get two Powerhouse 180's, (one for each loop), instead of the ZW-L. This way I'll have modern, circuit-protected power, and I'll continue to use my Legacy Powermaster on one loop, my TPC-300 on the other loop. Although there would have been a few additional advantages to the ZW-L instead of the two Powerhouse 180's, I can do this for just over $200 instead of $650. My old ZW will become my power source for accessories only. Since I already have in-line fast-blow 10 amp fuses to the tracks, I'll probably just keep them there. For what I need, I think this setup will be a good solution for me. Thanks for all your input.
Dave
I have considered a ZW-L, as it would be able to be the only transformer I'd need for my layout. I have a Postwar ZW powering both mainlines and a Z powering lights and accessories. A ZW-L would do it all. Upfront cost is the big issue. With external breakers and TVS diodes on the ZW I'm not gaining a whole lot with the ZW-L.
Being that you have a powermaster you should have been fine with the ZW as the power source. Any track short should trip the breaker in the powermaster, cutting power to the track, exactly like an external breaker inline to the track would.
