AF Questions: Humor Me

Gilbert engine on .138 rail track.

That is a nice set. The 326 Hudson is an excellent engine. Runs great, smokes great and still has the tender mounted 4 position reverse unit. If something is not working these are very easy to repair. It has a tender mounted air chime whistle that sounds awful, just pretend it is not there. Some 326's have small motors (1/2" armature stack) and some have large motors (3/4"). Either runs fine.

Baldwin switchers run marginal at best, the PA's run great until they don't. The main problem with the PA's is axle hole wear in the truck frame. The fix is to have the chassis rebushed. If you want to run diesels a lot, either have them converted to can motors or buy the modern FlyerChief diesels. For once in a while operation all the Gilbert diesels are ok.

All S gauge trains will run on .138 rail. Some, but not all will run on code 125 rail. Lionel FasTrack uses .138 rail and is the most complete track system available. It is not cheap. FasTrack is made in 20" and 27" radius. Original Gilbert track works well and is by far the cheapest. It is readily available. The Gilbert turnouts work forever. GarGraves makes flex and sectional track that mates directly with Gilbert track. SHS/MTH also made a .138 rail track system but it is out of production. American Models makes a code 148 rail track system.

Gilbert and Lionel AF, American Models, SHS/MTH and Scale Trains all run on 20"R track. Larger radius looks better but is not required.

Knuckle couplers work fine. Link couplers work great when properly adjusted. I make a few transition cars, link on one end, KC on the other end, so I can use both. I have never seen Marx couplers on AF trains. Some operators convert all their cars to Kadee couplers. It is a lot of work and requires a perfect track system. I just use mostly knuckle couplers.

Because I'm not a fan of "bells and whistles", I lean more towards early PW steam: # 300, 310, 320. They all run VERY well, smooth and quietly.

Having said that, I do think Gilbert's approach to their smoke was very well designed, in that the geared piston smoke plunger ran off the same mechanism as the drive wheels, so the smoke is always in sync with the wheels' rotation...and these things smoke like crazy. I dare say my #302 and 312 are both more reliable smokers than the much newer TMCC Lionel O gauge steam I sometimes play with.   The "choo choo" sound is realistic enough, although as I mentioned, I prefer more "silent" running engines, so I keep these 2 on hand just because I have 'em...and they work so well.

Gilbert's S scale knuckles are not much smaller than the Lionel O gauge "lobster claw", so I like the link couplers a bit better, as the cars couple more closely together...FWIW.

I use American Models track; being code 148 (the same as the '70s vintage Atlas 2 rail O scale), everything I have (both scale and PW Flyer) runs just fine on it. As an added bonus, (for me anyway) since the Flyer engines have the AC/DC "universal" type motors, I simply run everything with my large Marnold DC power pack. If you want to run just Flyer and use AC, I found the big (older) MRC "0-27" unit works really well on these (non can-motored) engines...although any PW transformer (Gilbert or Lionel) work just fine too.

Mark in Oregon

I have one of the Hudsons that I upgraded to DCC.  It runs very well and quite smoothly.  My problem is I left the club and don't have DCC at home.

It is a great looking engine as well.

Thank you Tom for your very thorough input!

First off, that photo is fantastic. The realistic scenery truly enhances and showcases the scale proportions of that AF engine. That is far more appealing than my efforts at attempting to making traditional 3 rail "realistic" looking. Is that hand laid track, or doctored Fast Track?

From what you've shared with me, it sounds as if I would want .138" rail. Likely, though, .148 can also be made to adapt to .148"? (We're talking only .010" here. That somewhat negligible difference should be able to be addressed by filing a 1" - 2" transition on the ball of the .148" rail with a flat file.

An observation: The roadbed of the Fast Track system will make it a bit more challenging to give a "yard" look to the track, where often the ties are sitting in the ground and the track has very little drainage provisions.

As for running qualities, I suspect it would never approach the abilities seen in my HO engines, however, I also suspect it SHOULD be better than the running qualities of typical 3-rail PW Lionel.

Also, given the selection of AF steam engines, it ought to be "do-able" to reflect a very early transition era look. That is, minimal diesel presence. I found such steam-heavy "look" was not practical in the realm of traditional sized steam switcher engines in 3-rail PW Lionel. The only Lionel steam switcher, an 0-6-0, suffered from the bane of traditional PW: It was sized larger than the traditional main line type steam engines. (Think: The "Baby" Hudsons, Berkshire, and the like.) That meant the little 0-6-0 switcher had a larger physical presence than a Hudson! (This was a big con for me when I was looking into 3-rail traditional for my "Geezer Layout" if it comes to that!)

SO, you've given me a lot to explore.

Thanks again!

Andre

Thanks for chiming in, Francine!

And that was going to be one of my questions: Namely, how hard are these older AF engines to convert to DC and thus be made to be compatible with DCC?

Another question: Did Lionel release any upgraded AF steam engines? If so, what ones?

If figure for early diesel switchers, an AM Baldwin would fill the bill. In fact, AM offered some diesels that would fit such an "early transition" era look nicely.

Andre

Andre, the 326 Hudson and all Flyer steam locos use an 18:1 worm gear drive.  So they're "tamer", and tend to maintain their speed better than common Lionel steam locos with the parallel-plate motor.  (Note, the speed variation sometimes seen with Lionels can be minimized by making sure your roadbed is absolutely level, and that you have good power distribution.)

You should know that Flyer's worm gearing is self-locking; by design the wheels can't turn the motor.  So they don't "coast" or convey a sense of mass as well as Lionels IMO.  By comparison, Lionel's 773 Hudson has 18:1 worm gearing that IS back-driveable (at least once it's broken in.)  So that particular loco runs as well or better than any Flyer steam loco.  When it comes to diesels, I think Lionels have a better mechanical pedigree; high-quality Lionels made before 1955 run very smoothly, and Lionel's mechanisms are very robust.

Flyer generally specified a minimum diameter of 40".  Lionel's standard track diameter was 31".   Of course O gauge locos look and run better on wider radii which are readily available.  Modern track systems like Atlas O look more realistic to my eyes than Flyer S gauge tinplate track; of course they still have three rails!

IMO Lionels are easier to repair, with greater parts availability.  There's also a huge glut of operator-grade pre- and postwar Lionel O gauge right now, so IMO it's a great value with opportunities for kitbashing, custom painting, etc., that would have horrified collectors from older generations.

Appearance-wise Flyer has a few things going for it: First, EVERYTHING was made to uniform 1:64 proportions whereas Lionels vary.  For better or worse, all Flyer steam locos were based on a specific prototype.  Second, a 1:64 train looks better (or at least acceptable) on 40" diameter curves.  You'll need at least 54" to replicate that look with traditional Lionels.  So perhaps a trade-off of repairability/durability vs space required for a layout?

Sometimes I wish I could have started with S gauge, but I've come to realize that there are trade-offs, and I'm not inclined to change scales at this point.  I believe a lot of fun and at least a degree of realism can be achieved with either one.  If you're having fun then you're not doing it wrong!

Andre, my layout was made with SHS/MTH flex track. It is out of production but not hard to find in the secondary market. The code138 track can be joined to the AM Code 148 if necessary. It is easiest if permanently fastened to a layout. I like the .138 rail because the railhead is much thinner than Code 125 or Code 148. The yards work best with the flex track without the plastic roadbed.

There are drop in can motor conversions for Gilbert steam engines. Can motor kits also exist for diesels but its a lot harder to do. Some require machining the chassis. There are services that do this.

Gilbert made two scale switchers, the 0-8-0 and the 0-6-0. They also made scale docksider engines.

Hi Mark!

I missed your comment while I have been replying to Tom and Francine.

After having read your comments, some thoughts...

It's good to know that AF's smoke system is a good one. I don't know if that's something I would use all the time (is it okay to run such "dry"?), but nice quantities of smoke is fun to watch.

AF's large knuckles are a bit of a turn off, but I guess I could convert to Kadee 802's. (802's are a bit large for true S scale, but far smaller than the AF knuckles.)

Track: Yes, if I get to the experimental stage with this, what brand/size to go with as the primary brand/size would have to be decided upon.

Thanks for your comments!

Andre

Ted S:

Thank you for your input, too!

Yes, very familiar with the tendencies of worm drives. All of my HO diesel engines us worms in the drives. They don't roll at all. 18:1 is quite high compared to most HO steam, which are typically 28:1, 30:1, etc. However, the size of the motor may somewhat mitigate the 18:1 ratio.

Diameter: IF I should do this, I would suspect I would try to hold curves to a minimum of 27" radius.

I was a bit surprised that Lionel's are a bit easier to work on. Still, it must be FAR easier to work on an AF steam engine, than say, a Broadway Limited Imports steam engine in HO!

Yes, there are good deals to be had in PW Lionel right now. However, a quick check of The Bay indicates that the 326 can be had at better price points than a nice Lionel PW Berkshire!

Yes, I'm sure both 3-rail or AF can be fun.

I do think that AF w/Kadee 802's will always look better than PW Lionel w/factory knuckles. To boot, if the AF is sitting on .138" or .148" track, well... then it very closely begins to approach a "scale" look!

Thanks again for taking the time to input!

Andre

Pictures of the SHS/MTH .138 flex compared to the GarGraves Gilbert compatible flex. Some American Flyer by Lionel steam engines in the yard area with a few Gilbert hoppers in the background. It’s really nice when all the items are the correct 1/64th scale.

Thanks for the follow up, Tom!

Though working with flex track and some switches would be more trouble than a "plug n' play" track system... at this very early juncture, I "think" that flex w/appropriate switches would be seriously considered.

Good to know that AF made both an 0-8-0 and an 0-6-0.

Andre

Gilbert 0-6-0 and a 4-8-4.

Here is what the .138 rail plug and play system looks like.

Hello Andre and thanks for the kind comments. I have no experience with 'modern' S gauge or American Flyer by Lionel at all. When I had my shop back in the late '80s and mid 90's I stocked several lionel remakes of the American Flyer PA sets but never actually operated them as there were no Flyer layouts known to me ta the time. Also had some of the S Helper Service and American Models pieces. Especially liked the chrome Santa Fe and D&H PA's that were simply beautiful.

Know nothing about any recent Lionel S gauge steamer production but I understand they now have Legacy and seem to have been well received.

Last summer on a whim I bought a Flyer SOUTHERN Mikado to display with a MTH Premiere Mikado #4501. Both are very well detailed and look great on a shelf. Just look at that nice full sized pilot wheel - wish they could do that with their O scale locomotives. Several fellas here have mentioned that the S gauge Mikado has terrific sounds but for some reason lionel put a Sleuthe smoke unit in them which is at best marginal. Don't know as I've not had any S track to try it on.   Well, now I do!

Andre,

Sorry for the late reply.  Yes you need a can motor (available from Port Lines).  As long as your soldering skills are good and a fairly steady hand (which I no longer have) it's fairly easy.

If you have (and only if you have) the ability to remove the drivers, clean and requarter them - that helps greatly. Friends did the requartering, soldering and programming.   I have a 290 (which I started to convert to a Reading G1), a Hudson and a K5 and all are good to excellent runners.

I also have 2 Flyer Chief Berks, a Northern and a GP7.  They run great, but can be sensitive to shorts.

Hope that helps.

Francine

@Strummer posted:

...snip... H Gilbert's approach to their smoke was very well designed, in that the geared piston smoke plunger ran off the same mechanism as the drive wheels, so the smoke is always in sync with the wheels' rotation...and these things smoke like crazy. ...snip...

Mark in Oregon

Some years back I was at a train show in Tallahassee, FL and saw this cut-away Flyer that demonstrated the smoke unit:

My only comment is that I wish that the unit was operating at a slower speed so that the mechanism could be seen more clearly.

@AmFlyer posted:

<snip: some comparison pics of track and some excellent layout photos>

Just getting back to replying to additional comments and follow ups.

Tom:

Forgot to say in my reply to the post containing the layout pics: Those pictures simply look like a nicely done scale S layout! In those pictures, the rail size is a non-issue!

0-6-0/4-8-4 post: That 4-8-4 is HUGE.

Your Christmas layout pics: Yes, again, the rail size is simply irrelevant!

c.sam:

Thanks for additional input! I sure like your new 326 and those green passenger cars!

Francine:

Thanks for that additional info. Yes, all experiential input is much appreciated.

Dave:

Thanks for those videos illustrating the Gilbert smoke pump mechanism.

Okay... I "think" I have got all caught up on replies? Hope I didn't miss anyone.

Thanks to all that are sharing input!

Andre

Andre, for a good look at what can be done with AM .148 and turnouts check out Carl Tuveson's layout and website:

http://www.tuveson.com/

I have a mix of AM .148 and SHS .138.  As Tom said you can join them using the AM rail joiners.  I don't bother to file the difference and have no trouble with scale wheels.  Hi-rail is a good way to go.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Thanks again Tom.

Yes, Carl's results have always been impressive to me. I've often said that IF I had taken the hi-rail route, I might have stayed with S scale. However, that was not to be.

Andre

Andre,

Thanks for stimulating conversation on the "Goldie LocKs scale".  We go for days without anything, and your post got all the best of our hobby out again.  Great job!

Francine

@laming posted:

Another question: Did Lionel release any upgraded AF steam engines? If so, what ones?

Andre, I had not seen answers to this particular question. Lionel did release several excellent American Flyer steam engines.

• Mikado and Pacific earlier versions from 2008 or so that were TMCC/AC capable.  The Pacific was reintroduced in 2021 with Legacy/AC/DC/DCC capability.
• There was a Big Boy that appeared to be an undersized K-Line locomotive with great sound but unprototypical dimensions.
• A Legacy Challenger appeared in 2010 that was Legacy/AC controlled. This was a great looking locomotive. I modified mine to run only on DC by bypassing some PC boards, but I lost the sound and other effects until I got the Legacy system and returned it to stock condition.
• A Y-3 2-8-8-2 showed up in 2012 that was advertised as Legacy/AC; but I discovered it also ran on DC. Lionel checked and confirmed that it did. However, the tender backup LED was on in forward and off when running backward under DC but correct when running on AC/TMCC/Legacy. Many AF afficianados felt this was the best steam locomotive AF/Lionel produced.
• Lionel introduced a Flyer Chief Northern 4-8-4 in 2017. I did not buy one, so I don't know much about it.
• In 2018 Lionel announced a 2-8-4 Berkshire for a surprising low $500. It was Legacy/TMCC/AC/DC/DCC compatible. A less detailed Flyer Chief version was also to be made available for $370. The Legacy locomotive was cancelled, then offered again in 2020 for $600. It is an excellent runner with a lot of detail.

Terry O'Kelly

Carlisle, MA

There was also the 2022 re-release of the Y3 with whistle steam and updated electronics that added DCC capability.

@AmFlyer posted:

There was also the 2022 re-release of the Y3 with whistle steam and updated electronics that added DCC capability.

I forgot about that one. Maybe because the original Y3 was $1,000, and the revised version with whistle steam and DCC capability added $800 to that price. That was a shocker that made me appreciate the original even more. Lionel had been improving American Flyer locomotives by adding DC and DCC capability as well as other minor modifications. The U33C's swinging pilot gave way to the SD70ACe's spring-loaded version, and the ES44AC was nearly flawless. If Lionel had only supplied scale wheelsets for those diesels, they would have appealed to almost every S scale modeler except those who did not want to model the modern era. Steam locomotives would be very difficult to convert to scale, but the Legacy Berkshires were a terrific improvement over the Flyer Chief versions and very affordable. It seemed as though Lionel was listening and devoting some time to S scale, until everything stopped a few years ago.  My "Christmas wish/hope" is that Lionel has been allocating resources for the introduction of an SD40-2 as nice as the ES44ACs, and with scale wheelsets available too. (It was promised in 1998 or so.) That most popular locomotive has been missing from S scale except in brass versions.

Terry O'Kelly

Been busy of late, noted several posts since my last reply! Thought I might get caught up...

Francine:

Well, all of you have been very helpful. It has been a fun thread!

Terry O'Kelly:

I knew Flyonel had produced some nice looking "new tooling" steam, but I didn't realize they had produced as much as you have listed.

Tom:

Thanks for more input. You have been very helpful in answering my questions.

All:

Thanks to all of you. You all have been very patient and helpful with this illiterate trying to learn more about vintage AF and Flyonel.

I now see S hi-rail through very different eyes. Should the day come that I need to up-size my trains for eyesight/dexterity reasons, I now see S hi-rail as a very viable option to 3-rail traditional. (I could have an all-steam urban setting w/continuous mainline, complete with a couple of nice looking 0-8-0 switchers plying the industries!)

The only downside I see is that vintage AF stuff is notably more expensive now compared to the traditional PW Lionel pieces I could have interest in. Of course, the Flyonel out-of-production steam engines are truly "up there" in pricing now.

Still, compared to 3-rail traditional, I suspect one could have probably 23% - 30% more railroad in a given space with S scale AND have more visually pleasing trains to boot!

This has been a very enlightening and interesting discussion!

Andre

Like Lt. Columbo's "Just one more thing..." (LOL!)

I do have another question:

Will a Lionel transformer (i.e. Type 33/etc) run an American Flyer AC engine?

Andre

Sure Andre, they should with no issues. I don't remember what the top output voltage is from Flyer's larger transformers but probably under 20v.

Lionel postwar transformers can be used to operate Gilbert engines with just two exceptions. There were some 0-8-0's and 4-8-4's made with DC engines. If you have a 332 or 342 they could have either universal motors or DC motors. It is really easy to tell. Look into the cab, the field is visible. The universal field has a wire wound coil, the DC field is a permanent magnet with no wire wound coil.

Some Lionel transformers output more than the 18V that Gilbert engines can tolerate. Unless the engine is in very poor condition, the engine will have gone straight at a curve long before the track voltage exceeded 18V.

Thanks again c.sam and Tom for your input.

I have a Lionel 1033 (90w?) on hand. Toying with the idea of picking up a stick of .138" or .148" track and watching for a decent 0-8-0 to purchase to see what type of running qualities can be had.

However, I have SO many things vying for my hobby funds, that may not happen at this point.

Andre

With trains, after all these years I've found it advantageous to narrow it down to just 3 to 5 different scales  :-)

@c.sam posted:

With trains, after all these years I've found it advantageous to narrow it down to just 3 to 5 different scales  :-)

Lands me, it's not just my HO trains! There's motorcycles (a given), some slot cars (sporadic), even some model airplanes try to get me to spend money on them! (Of which I am much stronger at resisting!)

Plus, come Tuesday, I'm trying to hook up with the grandson of a long time friend of mine that passed earlier this year (at 93 years of age!) and I may be purchasing David's Lionel 736 Berkshire as a keepsake and memento in honor of our 55 year long friendship we had. (David was almost like a second father to me.)

SO... experimental S scale expenditures are pretty "iffy" at this point.

Andre

Having attended the latest York TCA show I can tell you that great condition Flyer was available in abundance and at reasonable prices. The collector items are maintaining their prices but the more common Gilbert items are more reasonably priced. For example I purchased a large motor 336 northern that was labeled "project" for $125. Missing a numberboard and needed a repair part on an eccentric rod but otherwise in ex condition. A 742 reversing handcar for $25, works like a charm. Rolling stock for operators also reasonably priced. If one desired to secure steamers for repaint, much was available. I even found a Legacy SP U boat for $200 that needed a screw that holds the truck on. Turns out it in was in the box. Prices now will not bankrupt you as they would a few years ago.

Rich

Great photo Rich - is that a Flyer Challenger?  Have not kept up with Lionel Flyer at all.  What a beauty...

@richabr posted:

That is a very realistic scene Rich photographed. The engine would be 6-48084, the gray version of the UP Challenger with the smoke deflectors.

Tom, which manufacturer please?

Lionel, 2011 Catalog. It has the Legacy system, but runs fine with a conventional AC transformer

Here's one under Legacy control on S-Helper sectional track. I tested it out in my kitchen when I first got it.

That is a regal looking engine model and an overall nice scene! Is that .148" rail it's on?

American Models code 148.

Rich

Oh my, That's what I get for not being on the OGR for a couple of days. Andre, you are at a place where many of us have been, maybe not this late in the game. I know that I had a desire for S gauge models in the late 60's and early 70's after Gilbert American Flyer went out of business. I did not know at the time about the swap meets or train shows, I went and dabbled in HO but it did not really satisfy what I wanted, then by chance I was out with my wife doing some shopping and we came across a hobby store and went inside, Wow I saw some used Flyer in their display case. Needless to say we bought it all and that was the start. With my interest rekindled I started to look more and found S in magazines, some dedicated to S. I found an old high-school buddy and he clued me into the swaps and shows, I now have more that I ever thought possible. Be careful, it could happen to you!

I have a fairly large layout but with all Gilbert track using their rubber roadbed

I see in the above posted comments it was stated that diesel conversions to can motors are more difficult and that is true in most Flyers but not the Baldwin, it is a very simple drop in conversion and makes for a very good running engine, and now easily converted to DCC, if that's your desire.

Ray