AF Questions: Humor Me

Gilbert engine on .138 rail track.

That is a nice set. The 326 Hudson is an excellent engine. Runs great, smokes great and still has the tender mounted 4 position reverse unit. If something is not working these are very easy to repair. It has a tender mounted air chime whistle that sounds awful, just pretend it is not there. Some 326's have small motors (1/2" armature stack) and some have large motors (3/4"). Either runs fine.

Baldwin switchers run marginal at best, the PA's run great until they don't. The main problem with the PA's is axle hole wear in the truck frame. The fix is to have the chassis rebushed. If you want to run diesels a lot, either have them converted to can motors or buy the modern FlyerChief diesels. For once in a while operation all the Gilbert diesels are ok.

All S gauge trains will run on .138 rail. Some, but not all will run on code 125 rail. Lionel FasTrack uses .138 rail and is the most complete track system available. It is not cheap. FasTrack is made in 20" and 27" radius. Original Gilbert track works well and is by far the cheapest. It is readily available. The Gilbert turnouts work forever. GarGraves makes flex and sectional track that mates directly with Gilbert track. SHS/MTH also made a .138 rail track system but it is out of production. American Models makes a code 148 rail track system.

Gilbert and Lionel AF, American Models, SHS/MTH and Scale Trains all run on 20"R track. Larger radius looks better but is not required.

Knuckle couplers work fine. Link couplers work great when properly adjusted. I make a few transition cars, link on one end, KC on the other end, so I can use both. I have never seen Marx couplers on AF trains. Some operators convert all their cars to Kadee couplers. It is a lot of work and requires a perfect track system. I just use mostly knuckle couplers.

Because I'm not a fan of "bells and whistles", I lean more towards early PW steam: # 300, 310, 320. They all run VERY well, smooth and quietly.

Having said that, I do think Gilbert's approach to their smoke was very well designed, in that the geared piston smoke plunger ran off the same mechanism as the drive wheels, so the smoke is always in sync with the wheels' rotation...and these things smoke like crazy. I dare say my #302 and 312 are both more reliable smokers than the much newer TMCC Lionel O gauge steam I sometimes play with.   The "choo choo" sound is realistic enough, although as I mentioned, I prefer more "silent" running engines, so I keep these 2 on hand just because I have 'em...and they work so well.

Gilbert's S scale knuckles are not much smaller than the Lionel O gauge "lobster claw", so I like the link couplers a bit better, as the cars couple more closely together...FWIW.

I use American Models track; being code 148 (the same as the '70s vintage Atlas 2 rail O scale), everything I have (both scale and PW Flyer) runs just fine on it. As an added bonus, (for me anyway) since the Flyer engines have the AC/DC "universal" type motors, I simply run everything with my large Marnold DC power pack. If you want to run just Flyer and use AC, I found the big (older) MRC "0-27" unit works really well on these (non can-motored) engines...although any PW transformer (Gilbert or Lionel) work just fine too.

Mark in Oregon

I have one of the Hudsons that I upgraded to DCC.  It runs very well and quite smoothly.  My problem is I left the club and don't have DCC at home.

It is a great looking engine as well.

Thank you Tom for your very thorough input!

First off, that photo is fantastic. The realistic scenery truly enhances and showcases the scale proportions of that AF engine. That is far more appealing than my efforts at attempting to making traditional 3 rail "realistic" looking. Is that hand laid track, or doctored Fast Track?

From what you've shared with me, it sounds as if I would want .138" rail. Likely, though, .148 can also be made to adapt to .148"? (We're talking only .010" here. That somewhat negligible difference should be able to be addressed by filing a 1" - 2" transition on the ball of the .148" rail with a flat file.

An observation: The roadbed of the Fast Track system will make it a bit more challenging to give a "yard" look to the track, where often the ties are sitting in the ground and the track has very little drainage provisions.

As for running qualities, I suspect it would never approach the abilities seen in my HO engines, however, I also suspect it SHOULD be better than the running qualities of typical 3-rail PW Lionel.

Also, given the selection of AF steam engines, it ought to be "do-able" to reflect a very early transition era look. That is, minimal diesel presence. I found such steam-heavy "look" was not practical in the realm of traditional sized steam switcher engines in 3-rail PW Lionel. The only Lionel steam switcher, an 0-6-0, suffered from the bane of traditional PW: It was sized larger than the traditional main line type steam engines. (Think: The "Baby" Hudsons, Berkshire, and the like.) That meant the little 0-6-0 switcher had a larger physical presence than a Hudson! (This was a big con for me when I was looking into 3-rail traditional for my "Geezer Layout" if it comes to that!)

SO, you've given me a lot to explore.

Thanks again!

Andre

Thanks for chiming in, Francine!

And that was going to be one of my questions: Namely, how hard are these older AF engines to convert to DC and thus be made to be compatible with DCC?

Another question: Did Lionel release any upgraded AF steam engines? If so, what ones?

If figure for early diesel switchers, an AM Baldwin would fill the bill. In fact, AM offered some diesels that would fit such an "early transition" era look nicely.

Andre

Andre, the 326 Hudson and all Flyer steam locos use an 18:1 worm gear drive.  So they're "tamer", and tend to maintain their speed better than common Lionel steam locos with the parallel-plate motor.  (Note, the speed variation sometimes seen with Lionels can be minimized by making sure your roadbed is absolutely level, and that you have good power distribution.)

You should know that Flyer's worm gearing is self-locking; by design the wheels can't turn the motor.  So they don't "coast" or convey a sense of mass as well as Lionels IMO.  By comparison, Lionel's 773 Hudson has 18:1 worm gearing that IS back-driveable (at least once it's broken in.)  So that particular loco runs as well or better than any Flyer steam loco.  When it comes to diesels, I think Lionels have a better mechanical pedigree; high-quality Lionels made before 1955 run very smoothly, and Lionel's mechanisms are very robust.

Flyer generally specified a minimum diameter of 40".  Lionel's standard track diameter was 31".   Of course O gauge locos look and run better on wider radii which are readily available.  Modern track systems like Atlas O look more realistic to my eyes than Flyer S gauge tinplate track; of course they still have three rails!

IMO Lionels are easier to repair, with greater parts availability.  There's also a huge glut of operator-grade pre- and postwar Lionel O gauge right now, so IMO it's a great value with opportunities for kitbashing, custom painting, etc., that would have horrified collectors from older generations.

Appearance-wise Flyer has a few things going for it: First, EVERYTHING was made to uniform 1:64 proportions whereas Lionels vary.  For better or worse, all Flyer steam locos were based on a specific prototype.  Second, a 1:64 train looks better (or at least acceptable) on 40" diameter curves.  You'll need at least 54" to replicate that look with traditional Lionels.  So perhaps a trade-off of repairability/durability vs space required for a layout?

Sometimes I wish I could have started with S gauge, but I've come to realize that there are trade-offs, and I'm not inclined to change scales at this point.  I believe a lot of fun and at least a degree of realism can be achieved with either one.  If you're having fun then you're not doing it wrong!

Andre, my layout was made with SHS/MTH flex track. It is out of production but not hard to find in the secondary market. The code138 track can be joined to the AM Code 148 if necessary. It is easiest if permanently fastened to a layout. I like the .138 rail because the railhead is much thinner than Code 125 or Code 148. The yards work best with the flex track without the plastic roadbed.

There are drop in can motor conversions for Gilbert steam engines. Can motor kits also exist for diesels but its a lot harder to do. Some require machining the chassis. There are services that do this.

Gilbert made two scale switchers, the 0-8-0 and the 0-6-0. They also made scale docksider engines.

Hi Mark!

I missed your comment while I have been replying to Tom and Francine.

After having read your comments, some thoughts...

It's good to know that AF's smoke system is a good one. I don't know if that's something I would use all the time (is it okay to run such "dry"?), but nice quantities of smoke is fun to watch.

AF's large knuckles are a bit of a turn off, but I guess I could convert to Kadee 802's. (802's are a bit large for true S scale, but far smaller than the AF knuckles.)

Track: Yes, if I get to the experimental stage with this, what brand/size to go with as the primary brand/size would have to be decided upon.

Thanks for your comments!

Andre

Ted S:

Thank you for your input, too!

Yes, very familiar with the tendencies of worm drives. All of my HO diesel engines us worms in the drives. They don't roll at all. 18:1 is quite high compared to most HO steam, which are typically 28:1, 30:1, etc. However, the size of the motor may somewhat mitigate the 18:1 ratio.

Diameter: IF I should do this, I would suspect I would try to hold curves to a minimum of 27" radius.

I was a bit surprised that Lionel's are a bit easier to work on. Still, it must be FAR easier to work on an AF steam engine, than say, a Broadway Limited Imports steam engine in HO!

Yes, there are good deals to be had in PW Lionel right now. However, a quick check of The Bay indicates that the 326 can be had at better price points than a nice Lionel PW Berkshire!

Yes, I'm sure both 3-rail or AF can be fun.

I do think that AF w/Kadee 802's will always look better than PW Lionel w/factory knuckles. To boot, if the AF is sitting on .138" or .148" track, well... then it very closely begins to approach a "scale" look!

Thanks again for taking the time to input!

Andre

Pictures of the SHS/MTH .138 flex compared to the GarGraves Gilbert compatible flex. Some American Flyer by Lionel steam engines in the yard area with a few Gilbert hoppers in the background. It’s really nice when all the items are the correct 1/64th scale.

Thanks for the follow up, Tom!

Though working with flex track and some switches would be more trouble than a "plug n' play" track system... at this very early juncture, I "think" that flex w/appropriate switches would be seriously considered.

Good to know that AF made both an 0-8-0 and an 0-6-0.

Andre