Allegheny Steam Engine Coal Operations

A single Mikado 2-8-2 could handle the train from Clifton Forge to tidewater at Hampton, VA on the mostly downhill run along the James River.  On the mountain portion of the line an Allegheny with 140 hoppers would be assisted by another H-8, or by one of the older H-7 2-8-8-2 simple articulateds, pushing on the rear from Hinton, WV to the summit at Alleghany, VA.  A 125' turntable existed at Alleghany to turn the helper engines for their return to Hinton. The road engine would continue to Clifton Forge where it would be cut off, serviced and dispatched on a westbound train.

FYI: If you plug in these coordinates ( 37.747493, -80.243018 ) in HistoricAerials.com you can clearly see the turntable in the 1963 and 1971 views.

Note that the correct spelling of the locomotive name is "Allegheny" with an e, whereas the correct spelling of the community and county where the railroad summit is located is Alleghany with an a.

Question:  Would the C&O been better served with 2-10-4's?  A 2-6-6-6 seems overkill.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Question:  Would the C&O been better served with 2-10-4's?  A 2-6-6-6 seems overkill.

The problem with 2-10-4's is they don't bend in the middle.  I imagine the routes where the Allegeny's were used probably wouldn't have curves that would allow for a large rigid wheelbase locomotive.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Question:  Would the C&O been better served with 2-10-4's?  A 2-6-6-6 seems overkill.

The problem with 2-10-4's is they don't bend in the middle.  I imagine the routes where the Allegeny's were used probably wouldn't have curves that would allow for a large rigid wheelbase locomotive.

Rusty

Rusty you are correct in your statement, at least from steam locomotive questions that I used to ask of 2 retired C&O Steam Engine Men, that I met some years back. With this being said the 3 axel training truck wasn't all that forgiving, and each and every engine had to be reset when it got to Russell Ky or Huntington, Wva upon arrival from Lima....Once the C&O Shop Crews got them where they wanted them they were like Baby Bear's Porridge...…..but really I could see any steam engine being like that, with all of that steel flying around, some adj's had to be made...…..

The Line from Russel to Elkhorn City, Ky had some extremely sharp curves, but they still were able to use the 2-10-4 and turn it on a "Y" just south of Elkhorn City....The C&O interchanged with the Clinchfield there, and Clinchfield turned their 4-6-6-4 Challengers on the Elkhorn City "Y" as well...….C&O 2-6-6-6's were too big and heavy for the Bridges that they had to cross on the "Big Sandy Division", so they never made the trip South from the Catlettsburg Junction...!  

I was told that the Allegheny was the next step up from the 2-10-4.

Take the 2-10-4 then add some wheels here and there and you have a 2-12-6 or a 2-6-6-6.

Don't know if this is true or not.  Just repeating a story.

Ed

One story I read was the Chessie wanted a locomotive which could outperform the N&W A class.  There eas a TRAINS article about the 2-6-6-6's

Dominic Mazoch posted:

One story I read was the Chessie wanted a locomotive which could outperform the N&W A class.  There eas a TRAINS article about the 2-6-6-6's

I read that article sometime back when reading about the C&O Steam...As a kid I had many to choose from as a Kid from Louisville, Ky. I liked the C&O best, especially the ones with the flying front pumps, and pilot mounted Head Lights. May have not been anymore powerful than any of the other railroads from our town, but they sure looked that way....!

Did you know that the C&O Allegheny (and the Virginian locos of the same design) were the tallest, heaviest, and most powerful American steam locomotives ever built? And that they almost bankrupted the Lima Locomotive Company?

Many people think the Union Pacific Big Boy was the "biggest" in all those categories. The Big Boy was longer, but that was the only spec that exceeded the Allegheny. The Allegheny was taller and heavier, and developed 7,498 drawbar horsepower in tests with the dynamometer car, which far exceeded the power output of the Big Boy.

They carry the "heaviest" badge with a bit of tarnish. The C&O had weight limits that these locomotives had to meet. The railroad knew what their bridges were rated for, and these locomotives had to be able to cross all the bridges. When the prototype Allegheny locomotive entered the Scale House at Lima for the first time, Will Woodard and another Lima Loco company official told all the regular Scale House crew to leave and they would weigh the locomotive. Lo and behold, when they finished weighing, the locomotive met the C&O weight specs with a few pounds to spare. How about that!

It was not until a couple years later that the locos were found to be 75,000 pounds OVER weight! The C&O immediately launched a massive bridge inspection program which was VERY expensive. The contract with Lima had penalties for not making the weight limit. Those penalties, which Lima ultimately had to pay, almost bankrupted the company.

The icing on the cake was that the C&O never used these locomotives in the kind of service they would have been best suited for - heavy, high speed freights. They assigned them to coal drags that even the Allegheny could not get up to any kind of speed, thus they railroad never really used all the horsepower they paid for with this gorgeous design.

To add to Rich's information, above, those C&O H-8 1600s had 504,000 pounds weight on drivers, thus 84,000 pound axle loads. Such an extremely high axle load seriously restricted their use system wide.

By comparison, the second order of UP 4000 class locomotives had 545,200 pounds, weight on drivers, thus only 68,150 pound axle loads.

The Great Northern O8 2-8-2 had a surprisingly high axle load:  81,250. Second only to the C&O 2-6-6-6!

"The icing on the cake was that the C&O never used these locomotives in the kind of service they would have been best suited for - heavy, high speed freights. They assigned them to coal drags that even the Allegheny could not get up to any kind of speed, thus they railroad never really used all the horsepower they paid for with this gorgeous design."

When you look at how the C&O used the H-8's to pull trains that were then same length as assigned to the T-1 2-10-4's shows that initially the C&O wasted their money on the H-8's.  It was only after they were reassigned to flatter districts where they could run faster that the C&O got the full potential of the design.

Stuart

Yeah Baby!!! Now we're talkin'. I appreciate the info provided here.

My favorite beast of an engine!

Given their size I wonder how long a train they could pull?If they where say in the hill and flatland part of the country.Thing is their are a lot of big steam locomotives.Ya got the N&W Y6B then you have UP bigboys and lets not forget DM&I yellowstones.All had their good points in operation.Look on the brightside rich.At least they saved a few of the locomotives.So every body can see just how big they are.

Hot Water posted:

To add to Rich's information, above, those C&O H-8 1600s had 504,000 pounds weight on drivers, thus 84,000 pound axle loads. Such an extremely high axle load seriously restricted their use system wide.

By comparison, the second order of UP 4000 class locomotives had 545,200 pounds, weight on drivers, thus only 68,150 pound axle loads.

I did not look it up, but a typical, modern 6 axle diesel-electric I think has around 72,000 lbs axle loads.   So, if I am correct, the H8 axle loads were very high.  

I also recall reading C&O had to pay engine crews back pay due to the higher weight, and that was also part of the settlement against Lima.

I've always been fascinated by the C&O H8.  I admit I am biased towards any Lima locomotives, but these locomotives really looked and performed great, IF they were used properly.   It will never happen (yes, I said it), but I'd much rather see one of these locomotives running versus a UP 4000 class.

Huddleston's book, "The Allegheny, Lima's Finest" is a great read.  I will have to pull out my copy a read again.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and/or corrections, and my best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year.

Let’s put “axle loading” in a little context...

A heavy SD40-2 would weigh in the 375,000 to 400,000 pound area. Divide that by 6 axles and you get axle loads in the 62,500 to 67,000 pound area. A REALLY heavy SD40, at 440,000 pounds, has axle loadings of 73,300 pounds.

A 286,000 pound freight car (very common) has axle loadings of 71,500 pounds. A 315,000 pound freight car (less common, but legal to run) has axle loading of 78,500 pounds.

NKP 765 has axle loadings in the mid-60s.

As you can see, 84,000 pound axle loadings are EXTREMELY HEAVY!

seaboardm2 posted:

Given their size I wonder how long a train they could pull?If they where say in the hill and flatland part of the country.Thing is their are a lot of big steam locomotives.Ya got the N&W Y6B then you have UP bigboys and lets not forget DM&I yellowstones.All had their good points in operation.Look on the brightside rich.At least they saved a few of the locomotives.So every body can see just how big they are.

A railroad's profile means a lot.  Even the Y6b's needed one or two helpers (A's and/or Y's) up yonder in the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Rusty

The Russian 4-14-4 had an axle load of 22 tons.     (!)          It was a complete failure.

How did the C&O figure out that Lima cheated on the weight?  A trip back to the scale?  One they owned?

The C&O found out by accident about the overweight situation.

The Virginian Railroad class AG locomotives were duplicates of the C&O H8s. When the Virginian ordered theirs, Lima told them what the locomotives weighed. The Virginian told Lima that the weight would not be a problem on their railroad.

The AGs had to move over the C&O in order to reach the Virginian Railroad. When the C&O learned of these upcoming moves, they told the Virginian that they did not want to allow these “overweight” locomotives on their railroad. When the Virginian told the C&O that they had been running their own Allegheny’s at that weight or more since they were new in 1941, all hell broke loose.

When the C&O discovered this, they immediately mounted a huge campaign to inspect all of their bridges, since everywhere the 1600s had run, the bridges had all been overloaded by 75,000 pounds! Some of the bridges required work to repair damage that had been caused by this overweight condition.

This discovery and the resulting penalties which Lima had to pay almost broke the Lima Locomotive Works. And it certainly hastened the retirement of these big locomotives.

Rich:

That story prevented disasters on the C&O!

FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:

The C&O found out by accident about the overweight situation.

The Virginian Railroad class AG locomotives were duplicates of the C&O H8s. When the Virginian ordered theirs, Lima told them what the locomotives weighed. The Virginian told Lima that the weight would not be a problem on their railroad.

The AGs had to move over the C&O in order to reach the Virginian Railroad. When the C&O learned of these upcoming moves, they told the Virginian that they did not want to allow these “overweight” locomotives on their railroad. When the Virginian told the C&O that they had been running their own Allegheny’s at that weight or more since they were new in 1941, all hell broke loose.

When the C&O discovered this, they immediately mounted a huge campaign to inspect all of their bridges, since everywhere the 1600s had run, the bridges had all been overloaded by 75,000 pounds! Some of the bridges required work to repair damage that had been caused by this overweight condition.

This discovery and the resulting penalties which Lima had to pay almost broke the Lima Locomotive Works. And it certainly hastened the retirement of these big locomotives.

Minor points:

The H-8s did have considerably less tractive effort than some of the other behemoths. The Big Boy had 135,375 lbs TE vs. the Allegheny's 110,200 lbs TE.  Even the much lighter N&W A Class developed 114,000 lbs. The Allegheny may have been able to beat Big Boy in a race over the road but with less tonnage.

The H-8s did pull manifest trains in addition to their coal train duties. They could and did make better use of their horsepower in that service.

Brandy posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Question:  Would the C&O been better served with 2-10-4's?  A 2-6-6-6 seems overkill.

The problem with 2-10-4's is they don't bend in the middle.  I imagine the routes where the Allegeny's were used probably wouldn't have curves that would allow for a large rigid wheelbase locomotive.

Rusty

Rusty you are correct in your statement, at least from steam locomotive questions that I used to ask of 2 retired C&O Steam Engine Men, that I met some years back. With this being said the 3 axel training truck wasn't all that forgiving, and each and every engine had to be reset when it got to Russell Ky or Huntington, Wva upon arrival from Lima....Once the C&O Shop Crews got them where they wanted them they were like Baby Bear's Porridge...…..but really I could see any steam engine being like that, with all of that steel flying around, some adj's had to be made...…..

The Line from Russel to Elkhorn City, Ky had some extremely sharp curves, but they still were able to use the 2-10-4 and turn it on a "Y" just south of Elkhorn City....The C&O interchanged with the Clinchfield there, and Clinchfield turned their 4-6-6-4 Challengers on the Elkhorn City "Y" as well...….C&O 2-6-6-6's were too big and heavy for the Bridges that they had to cross on the "Big Sandy Division", so they never made the trip South from the Catlettsburg Junction...!  

 

All steam locomotives had to be set up by the railroads upon delivery. They were generally shipped with their main rods removed and stored atop their tenders. The rods had to be reattached and the valve timing events would have to be inspected and adjusted as necessary. This was not unique to the H-8s.

From what I've read, Lima had a reputation for delivering the finest constructed locomotives, followed by ALCo. Baldwin seemed to have some issues with what we would call "quality control" today. 

If you read the accounts of ATSF 3463's teething pains on her first couple of trips in "Santa Fe's Big Three" by Kip Farrington, you'll see what I mean.

As far as the recollections of railroad men, their memories are as fallible as anyone else's.

I met a sweet old gent on on the San Francisco Zephyr on a cross-country Amtrak trip in 1976. He was a former Santa Fe man and was telling people in the lounge car  about the "old days".  Someone asked him about the "Blue Goose", Hudson 3460. He said "She was a good engine when she was going like this" as he rotated his arms in an alternating fashion, mimicking the action of the rods. "But when she ran like so" he continued, while rotating his arms in unison "you were in for a rough trip."  Of course it would be impossible for the two sides of the engine to become synchronized. I wasn't about to be a smart-"donkey" and dispute his story, and fortunately no one else did.

Very interesting read. Thanks to all for the detailed information. The H-8 is one of my personal favorites.

Rod

Rusty Traque posted:

Even the Y6b's needed one or two helpers (A's and/or Y's) up yonder in the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Rusty

Well, duh! Look at the tonnage they were hauling!

It should be pointed out that there is some debate about whether the Allegheny was actually the heaviest reciprocating steam locomotive ever built.  Eugene Huddleston made that claim in his article "Doctoring the Scales: The Case of the Overweight Alleghenies", published in the December, 1998 issue of Trains magazine.  His conclusion was based on the incomplete information available from the first weighing of an Allegheny at Lima in 1941, and estimated adjustments for various "working order" items that were missing from the locomotive at the time it was weighed.  The fact that members of the corporate Advisory Mechanical Committee were involved in a conspiracy to under-report the weight of the locomotive only serves to cast doubt on the reliability of measurements from this first weighing attempt. 

Once the C&O discovered that the first ten H8's weighed significantly more than the design specification, an investigation ensued that resulted in the careful weighing of several early production locomotives in actual working order and under close scrutiny by the builder and the railroad.  That exercise confirmed that the initial delivery of Alleghenies were indeed significantly over the design specification and became the basis for the $3 million cost adjustment from Lima.

It also confirmed (indirectly) that all engines weighed less than the 772,250 lbs weight of the 1944 second order of UP 4000's.

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

Correction to my post above:  Huddleston’s most detailed claims about the Allegheny weights were in “The Allegheny:  Lima’s Finest”, not the Trains magazine article I mentioned.  

I thought the C&O was still a member of the AMC at the time?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I thought the C&O was still a member of the AMC at the time?

They were.  The AMC was not dissolved until 1949 (when the handwriting was on the wall about the future of steam locomotive development).  

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY