aluminum passenger cars

Lionel and everyone else makes aluminum passenger cars.

Lionel cancell the cars. I heard it the notch six podcast

http://notch6.libsyn.com/notch...me-1-catalog-special

They can still be made but cost is becoming a factor. This is why lionel decided to go to plastic.

To quote "Hamlet"- Aye, there's the rub.

 

Richie

I much prefer MTH passenger cars over Lionel. Yes I get that they are the same mold for any road name. But my mind takes me back to the day when I was a youngin and some guy had a fit because I actually thought I could pick up a painted set of Lionel Illinois Central passenger cars. Plastic cars, even if they get in a fender bender, don't show the paint chips.

 

If I saw a passenger set from Golden Gate, Atlas, or Scott's company that I can't think of right now, I would buy them, but I would not settle on some other road name. Obviously IC would be one.

Given my personal preference, I sure like the aluminum passenger cars. Obviously the manufacturing conditions in China are making it difficult for suppliers to be in this market. Only GGD appears to remain in 3-Rail and that is with constant supervision from Scott Mann and a willingness of buyers to pay for them.

 

So with Lionel converting to plastic, the aluminum cars appear to be a thing of the past for most manufacturers.

 

I am thankful that K-Line cars are still around to fill the needs of those who want great aluminum cars, although at a price as well.

Just an FYI, I heard first hand this morning the new ESE 21 inch passenger cars will have a spectacular finish on them.

 

 

Alex

Given the amount of detail you can get out of a plastic mold these days, I dont see the big deal in the fact that they're plastic. If you look at the fidelity Atlas got out of the CZ cars, its apparent that there's no reason why high end cars can't be made from plastic.

Making the cars from aluminum leaves you with an extruded tube that everything then needs to be added on to (or in many cases, just left off). Compare the Atlas CZ cars to a recent GGD aluminum project and I think you'll find the plastic cars more than hold their own. 

 

"Just an FYI, I heard first hand this morning the new ESE 21 inch passenger cars will have a spectacular finish on them."

 

Thanks for your comments, Alex. They are very timely. Some have jumped the gun with all kinds of speculation as to what Lionel's new 21" passenger cars will look like, but I say let's give them a chance to show off this product first.

Thanks Brian,

 

   And just to confirm my thread, i spoke with one of the bosses this morning and received this news first hand. So I'm sure these cars will be awesome and my order is in already for them.

 

Thanks,

Alex

Whether its aluminum or plastic, I'm wondering how big a layout is required before a set of 21" cars stop looking grossly oversized?

I say that because on my 18'x24' layout a beautiful set of Kline aluminum cars looked just plain silly rolling around on it..I was happy to be rid of them.

Is it 20'x40'.. 30'x50'.. or maybe 40x50'?

Joe

 

Appears to all of a sudden be a shortage on later model Lionel 60’ all Aluminum cars.

Just a short time ago, I couldn’t give the things away for 50 bucks.

 

I would be surprised if people were buying sets low, parting out trucks and selling the shells for high dollar scrap.

 

There never has been an abundance of shiny aluminum cars with smooth black roofs either.

I’ve only found the ACL set so far.

They were most prominent in real life by Pullman. Not sure why they are always overlooked in “O”

They are everywhere in H.O.

???

 

And why never a set of the most popular NY to Fl. trains in RR history by any of the marketers?

 

 

This is a much larger issue than most folks are realizing.  It's one thing to buy a 36" Big Boy.  But an entire train of 21" passenger cars (exceeding 12') gets into a completely different territory.

 

Fine for club layouts and home layouts residing in huge, dedicated basements.  Anything less and they're gonna look plain silly.  But a couple of dealers tell me there's a market for these 21" cars.  And I say, sure I agree... I just think it's a very small niche market -- and one that GGD has captured quite well.  How successful Lionel will play in that market remains to be seen.  And that statement has nothing to do with second guessing the quality of the product -- more to do with what's Lionel gonna produce to lure customers away from GGD.  Even guys with deep pockets have their limits.  Lots of guys spent close to $2.5K-$3K on GGD's El Capitan.  How many purchases like that can folks handle in one year (or two)?  

 

I suppose Lionel will lead with price, but the GGD crowd typically wants scale fidelity first and foremost.  So price may not win folks over.

 

And that leaves us with the question... Are there enough guys with large enough layouts that will purchase Lionel's new passenger cars on brand alone (not to mention sight unseen) -- especially if Lionel produces generic coaches rather than road-name unique rolling stock -- which is still a big unknown? 

 

GGD has an excellent reputation, so they've earned their stripes with a BTO business model.  Lionel is just learning to walk in the BTO marketplace.

 

Should be an interesting space to watch. 

 

David

I run 21 inch cars on my 10' X 20' layout.  I think that they look fine.  My minimum curve is O-72.   They also look fine on the G&O garden railroad.  The G&O has a minimum curve of O-72.  Space constraints didn't allow the G&O to build larger curves in some places.

 

I think that the look of the long cars and large engines depends on your layout's curves and your own preferences.  If I had space for 18'x24' layout all the curves would be O-81 and wherever possible larger.

 

I like to operate my layout and limit train length to three or four 20 inch cars on my home layout. I run the longer passenger trains at the club.  Very few model railroaders can run a full length passenger or freight train in any scale.  

 

My club also has a very large HO layout with over 4,000 feet of track.  Even a layout this size can barely handle a 11 car passenger train with engines.  The limit is siding and reverse loop length.  We seldom run freight trains of more than 25 cars.  We have run a few 100 car freights but they tie up the entire mainline.  

 

The bottom line is that typical model railroads no matter what the size seldom have the room to run prototypical length passenger or freight trains.

 

The big exception are N scale clubs and modular displays.  Prototypical length N scale trains are routinely operated.  I suppose that if you want to run full length trains in a reasonable space you should be in N scale. Is anyone going to downsize to N?

 

Joe

ahem, most of you guys razzed me about purchasing (and loving) Lionel's recent release of the Cali Zepher just because it wasn't anywhere near prototypical.  They may be painted, but theres aluminim under that paint, so as one of the last aluminum Lionel sets maybe they will be a collectors item?

 

Nawwwwwh!!!

 

Rich

I have no preference in terms of plastic or aluminum.  The features and the fidelity are more important than the material used to fabricate.  I think kadee mounting pads, scale length, led lighting with caps and the return of the sound station dining car are far more important than alum v. plastic.

 

I personally have a layout large enough for 21" cars.  There is a lot of speculation and commentary about Lionel's decision to make the 21" cars.  I have not heard anyone from Lionel state they will not make 18" plastic cars in the future.  

People, Lionel cancelled only a few.  Thjey are not going to stop making aluminum cars.  Get your information correct.  Everyone hears something from someone somewhere.  I like to only post accurate information.  I just ended a conversation with Mike Reagan.  He just might know.

To me if makes no difference whether they are plastic or aluminum. If they are painted, you can't tell the difference anyway.... unless you pick them up

 

Paint finish, flush windows, LED constant lighting, close coupling, operating diaphragms, and accurate details are more important to me than being made from aluminum. I don't even need Kadee pads on passenger cars, as long as they are close coupled. 

Hello guys and gals.......

 

I have a 1989 Lionel Amtrak GG1 set with 8 aluminum cars and the engine couldn't pull the cars and I sure don't know what to do with them.  The set is in like new condition. I surely like to sell them or trade for Railking engine.

 

Tiffany

Marty,

 

What you're seeing here on the forum are folks commenting on what they see Lionel DOING -- not what they're SAYING in off-the-record conversations.

 

Of the last TWELVE aluminum sets catalog'd (I'm talking about the 18" sets here), Lionel cancelled EIGHT of them -- 5 of which were "replaced" with alternative 21" plastic offerings, and 3 were outright canceled with no replacement.

 

For whatever reason, Lionel chose to re-catalog (in the 2015 catalog) the other FOUR 18" aluminum sets that had already been announced well after the sets that Lionel chose to cancel .  And from the latest indications, those 4 sets are still scheduled for production.  Perhaps it was a numbers game that kept those 4 aluminum sets "alive" (i.e., traditionally popular Pennsy, SP, UP, and Milwaukee Olympian in UP colors).  None of us knows the real reason, since Lionel doesn't appear to be publicly commenting on their production schedules/decisions/delays, etc... these days.  Were it not for a small handful of dealers who post their shipping manifests from time to time, we would know nothing from Lionel representatives speaking on record.

 

So yes, Lionel continues to selectively offer aluminum sets.  But the future of aluminum offerings is uncertain at best.  Watching what Lionel actually DOES, it appears they're clearly planning an alternative means of producing passenger cars.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  However, the amount of dis-information this has caused in the marketplace is far from optimal.  For folks who prefer aluminum, what are they to do?  Purchase the plastic cars?  Or perhaps "wait" for an aluminum offering that may never see the light of day?

 

All in all, it's a perfect example of how Lionel's inability to communicate to its consumer audience -- whether it's because they can't or they won't -- is causing all kinds of confusion in the marketplace.

 

David

I agree 100%.  But for me size is just as important.  Heck, I don't even like the looks of 84' passenger cars on real railroads much less my miniature pike.

To me, they could be prototypically perfect and still be ugly if they're too long for the layout.

Joe 

So yes, Lionel continues to selectively offer aluminum sets.  But the future is uncertain at best.  Watching what Lionel actually DOES, it appears they're clearly planning an alternative means of producing passenger cars.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  However, the amount of dis-information this has caused in the marketplace is far from optimal.  For folks who prefer aluminum, what are they to do?  Purchase the plastic cars?  Or perhaps "wait" for an aluminum offering that may never see the light of day?

 

Hasn't Lionel, MTH or Atlas always only offered "selected sets"?  When was the future of any item listed in a catalog ever "certain"?  How is the consumer that wants a Lionel 18" aluminum car in any different position now than they would have been 1,3,5 or 10 years ago?  Customer X wants passenger car Z, he waits for the catalog to see what Lionel will offer.  The car is offered in the catalog and he is happy (for the moment as we all know anything can get cancelled) the car is not offered and he is unhappy.  Back when the 2010 catalog came out did Lionel state what they would or would not make in 2012?  These toys have always been available year to year.  

 

I simply do not understand all of the angst and anxiety expressed so often on this forum. We are talking about toys here.  If Lionel makes a toy i want then cool, if not then so what!  Nothing about any toy train manufacturer's behavior from marketing to production makes my sky fall.  

To paraphrase, "Aluminum yesterday, aluminum today, aluminum forever!"

I, like Brian just love passenger cars.  I have a few and they have been made by many companies.  Being an old Detective I always want first hand information.  I was with Charlie Ro earlier and then conversed with the big guy in Concord. 

 

I have no problem with plastic cars as I have several hundred.  I feel Lionel will be hitting a home run with the 21 inch plastic cars.  I hope the finish is better than what Atlas did.  I love the Atlas car but would not buy any with the nasty finish.  Those were Budd stainless steel sided cars in real life and were shinny.

 

I know of the issue Mike had with his plated cars and I feel Lionel may no go that way.  Nothing looks better than a set of MTH plated passenger cars.

 

For the Aluminum car only guys, look on the OGR For Sale forum I have some doubles for sale.

Really???  And here I thought we were buying the real things all this time. 

 

Duh... of course, they're toys.  The point being in this case... up until a week or two ago, even dealers were giving mixed information relative to sets that were already catalog'd as aluminum whether they were cancelled or not.

 

There is no angst or anxiety here.  Just asking for accurate information so folks can make informative purchasing decisions.  No need to get cute from the "I love Lionel right or wrong camp", thank you very much.

 

It's no secret that Lionel has encountered issues from it overseas aluminum supplier(s) the past 3-5 years.  And this year's 2015 catalog gave the impression that Lionel was moving toward plastic passenger cars -- which is fine.  Even the Notch6 podcast alluded to that... which got folks thinking in a certain direction.  No problem.

 

Now we hear Lionel hasn't quite put the nail in the coffin for aluminum passenger set production.  Well, what does that REALLY mean?  Is it a reference to these 4 aluminum sets in the 2015 catalog being the LAST aluminum sets still to be produced -- and no more thereafter?  Or are we talking about potentially more aluminum sets in future years -- perhaps with premium pricing?

 

Of course, Lionel will comment that it's their policy to not talk about future product direction.  So yeah, we're back to not knowing anything other than what's catalog'd from year to year. 

 

The fact that they've cancelled 8 of 12 aluminum sets speaks VOLUMES beyond anything we hear from the dis-information factory these days.  That's all I'm saying.

 

In my case, I had the 18" Texas Special on order along with the E8 MKT diesels.  Although I have a very small number of 21" sets, they're not my first choice.  I preferred the 18" size.  So not only will I not be ordering the 21" Texas Special "replacements", I also canceled my pre-order for the E8 MKT diesels.  Nope... my sky didn't fall either.  Life goes on just fine. 

 

David

In the Notch 6 podcast, Mike Reagen stated that some aluminum cars that they have orders for, they are going to make, and some that they are not going to make.  But when asked about the future of aluminum cars, first he said "I don't want to say that it effectively ends it [production of aluminum cars], then he hemmed and hawed, and then finally he said, "It pretty much means the end of aluminum cars.  I don't want to leave anybody hanging."

 

He described the difficulties of maintaining quality in aluminum vs the cost and time delays, and their confidence that they can get an equally good finish in plastic, more detail, more variations (skirts/no skirts), etc.

 

The discussion of 21" cars begins around 00:33:00

http://notch6.libsyn.com/notch...me-1-catalog-special

 

 

Bob

 

Thanks, Bob.  That's the message I took away from the podcast too when I listened to it.  And that's why I was so surprised to see Marty's post above, which essentially leaves the door open somewhat. 

 

David

Aluminum rules! 

 

There is nothing like shiny – brite clean Pullman Standards.

I rode them many times back in the day.

 

Passenger cars were not meant to be painted.

 

 

 

 

David,

Thanks for clarifying, as I truly thought you had the means to purchase an actual engine to operate on the railroad you had in your backyard.  

 

Also thanks for clarifying that you are not suffering from anxiety over the marketing and production of toy trains.  Forgive my confusion.  I have read many of your posts and they are fraught with what I incorrectly perceived to be anxiety.  Now I understand that you are simply "asking for accurate information" so you can make an informed decision about which toy trains to purchase in an incredibly annoying and whiny fashion.  

 

BTW, it is not about loving Lionel or any other manufacturer for that matter.  You are way off base there.  I am not a shill for Lionel.  In my estimation Lionel, MTH and Atlas all pretty much do the same thing when it comes to cataloging and producing trains.  3rd Rail however does business in a unique way.  No one but the teams of people that work for Lionel, MTH and Atlas have any idea about what they will produce.  Crying about a need for information and taking shots at Mike Reagan, as you have in some of your posts, is not going to get you the information which you clearly are so desperate to get.  Yes, I now know that you only need that information so you can make informed decisions about the toys you plan to purchase for the next 3 - 5 years.  When you say it like that, there is nothing neurotic about having to plan what toys you buy for years to come and incessantly complaining about your inability to do so because you are not getting the info that you need.  Yep, that is totally normal.

If you haven't figured it out yet, 3-5 years down the road is an eternity in this business.    6 months is more like it, when we're lucky. 

 

And oh yeah... you mentioned 3rd Rail in such a complementary way.  Isn't it ironic how when we ask the other importers to communicate here as effectively as Scott Mann, you view it as whining.    Thank goodness we don't need your validation on things to set ourselves straight.   Enough said.

 

David

When I first heard about this possible "end of aluminum cars," I ordered a set of the Milwaukee Road 15-inchers from Joe Grzyboski before the price starts rising on all of them. And they are beauties -- especially the boattail observation car.  

"Enough Said"..... I really wish you believed that, as that is clearly a doctrine by which you do not live.

David, Mike deals with the information he has.  We have been told a lot of things by Lionel and MTH over the years.  I feel York will be hot to sell aluminum cars this April.

i have a set of Aluminum Passenger cars from Williams awesome and love 'em

 

BUT

 

With the recent developments in plastic and paints the "aluminum" looking plastic cars look awesome!!!!

They do have some weight to them and they have great LED lighting

It's a good opportunity for another company to come in and make the aluminum cars. It puzzles me, that when a technology has been around for 65 years, why they can't make it in China. Why not make it the good old USA?  We the prices we are willing to pay for quality, it should be profitable. 

 

I did a google search on Lionel and wiki stated that Lionel is a marketer, not a manufacturer.  When you give up control of manufacturing.........  

Maybe Glenn Snyder Display Systems, can make the cars, they do "satin finish extruded aluminum" 

If you don't mind doing your own detailing, you can get aluminum cars from OK Engines.  OK makes generic cars and custom cars.  They will custom make passenger cars for a specific railroad road, etc.  All OK passenger cars are made in the USA.

 

Here is the contact information:  http://okengines.com/products.shtml

 

Joe

 

 

I also understood it to mean aluminum car production would eventually cease.  The reason IIRC was poor extrusions incapable of being finished correctly.  Some mention was made of the inability to simply polish out imperfections without losing detail. 

 

Now to speculation...would it be safe in assuming that what will be produced is only the fully painted cars and the ones with natural finish have been cancelled? 

 

Bruce