Am I wrong for being angry?

You should not get angry. All it will do is raise your blood pressure and shorten your life. Absent the health implications,  I think you should be angry. I would send Lionel a letter (not a call or email) and make sure it is addressed to someone HIGH UP in the customer service chain. Tell them that hte dealer they recommended REFUSED you service and since they are moving and maybe closing,perhaps they should no longer be listed as a dealer? Then just ask Lionel to resolve the issue.

Good luck!

Don

 Unless Lionel was implying you were to get a refund from the first dealer.

Why didn't you just ship it back to Lionel yourself for repair?  Return shipping costs would be worth your time aggrivation and gas.

I personally don't deal with any stores when it comes to repairs. Warranty work goes to Lionel North Carolina and any out of warranty stuff ( haven't had any yet)  will go to Mike R, Alex M, or any of the other reputible folks mentioned/participating here on the forum.

FWIW, its typically considered bad etiquette to return an item where it was not purchased. I've always gotten the impression dealers are not compensated well for repairs.

The dealer "may" have been willing to help more if you had puchased the smoke loader from them.

If Lionel knows an item has a design defect, they will pay return shipping AND refund you. 

When I set it up at home  it did not work. I call Lionel , the rep tells me they are having problems with the boards and I should return it.  I explain the store I purchased it from is over an hour away. The rep gives me a LHS, 15 minutes away to take it back to. 

I don't think I would have brought it back to the nearby local hobby shop. If the shop an hour away was close enough to purchase the item, it should be close enough for the return.

If you brought it to them for a repair, and they are an authorized Lionel service station, that is a different story.

What I do not understand is why the local shop accepted the piece anyway.

Given that they did, I would be annoyed that they sat on the piece and did nothing. I certainly wouldn't go back to their store, old or new location.


Here is a new question:
If Lionel is "having problems with the boards", shouldn't they recall the item?

Lionel Service has many tentacles and they are not always aware of the current status of a LHS much less how well that LHS does business. There is no Zone Service Centers like there is for a car manufacturer. Wait; do they still have Zone Service Centers??  

LNL has a LIST and you got the best they had on that LIST. So can you blame LNL or the LHS??

LNL has a LIST and you got the best they had on that LIST. So can you blame LNL or the LHS??

Who blamed Lionel?

Regardless:
Lionel's factory authorized service stations (centers) represent them. Sounds like Lionel needs processes to:
keep their list current
vet the authorized service stations

Not worth getting angry about. Too many moving pieces and the ball got dropped. Stuff happens. Suggest contacting Lionel, and asking for a prepaid return shipping label and return authorization.  Seems only fair for a general product design or manufacturing problem, if that's what it is.

Lionel "Value Added Dealers" have no obligation to ship any product for repair to Lionel at their expense. If they choose to do so as a reward for your patronage, consider it a privilege, not an entitlement. Do not expect a retailer to pay out of their pocket to ship or service an item purchased elsewhere. They receive no reimbursement from Lionel for doing so.

Warranty terms are spelled out clearly. Lionel's customer service representatives should have  known better than to refer you to a "Value Added Dealer". They should have referred you to an "Authorized Service Station" or provided you with an RA for a direct return to Lionel. 

Lionel dealers are, for the most part, small independent merchants with limited resources. If this dealer is like many others, their back-of-house is  piled high with defective Lionel merchandise in limbo awaiting a decision whether to dump it back on a distributor, attempt a repair, or get tossed in the trash as a write-off. They have enough problems caused by Lionel's QC. They don't need to take on other dealer's merchandise.

What didn’t work about it? Perhaps someone here may have a solution if you described the problem. 

The store in question should have told you they can't ship it back, that Lionel should not have told you that, and probably said you should call Lionel back and get an RA number.  I would be more angry they took the item and let it lie around, rather than tell me the truth, but in the end getting angry likely won't help you much. I would get the unit back and ship it to Lionel, sounds like the easier of the options you have. If it makes you feel better, I would send a letter to the owner of the store in question and tell them you were disappointed in the service, not that they wouldn't ship it back for you, but rather that they took it and let it sit there rather than tell you they couldn't do anything for you. It may not change much, but it may make you feel better, and if the store owner has even 5 ounces of brains he will be thankful to know what happened to prevent it with other customers. Sadly there are a lot of store owners who still feel this crazy sense of entitlement, that they are a put upon minority, but good ones understand this kind of feedback is valuable. They also know that a customer is a customer, and that while you may not have been a big customer, with something like this you may not be one at all.

There was a history with these.  Apparently the design was changed during production, so they all leaked right out of the box if they were not modified as described in this lengthy thread.

I had originally pre-ordered one, but after that thread transpired, I returned it to the dealer I bought it from for a credit.  I didn't want anything to do with the need to fix such a serious flaw right out of the box.

-Dave

I think it only fair to return it where you bought it from.  They are the ones who profited from the sale.   If they value your service I would think they would be willing to send it back.   I can't say for certain but in the case where a design flaw is the culprit I thought Lionel paid for return so aside from the the LHS time they should get reimbursed for shipping.  

Not sure why the other shop took it and then said they were moving and would not be sending anything back.  Giving them the benefit of the doubt maybe the move decision was made shortly after you dropped off the item.

Either way, it really isn't worth getting aggravated about (easy for me to say).  Getting repairs is always a bummer but there sure are worse things to get upset about.

Ed

Supports the argument for keeping things simple. I employ this mode of operation and never have a problem.

Why should the 2nd dealer expend his time and effort---time=$$$---when he didn't make any profit on the sale?  He was entitled to make a profit, not just get an even reimbursement, if that, from Lionel.  If you were a regular customer, that would be different.

Just take it as a lesson learned.  The days of getting items repaired at the LHS are over.  Most don't want to deal with it and it takes 3 times as long.  All you are doing is adding a middle man to the process.  I would never let a LHS touch anything for repair.

Either ship it directly back to Lionel in NC or return for a refund to original store.  Simple as that.

Forget about it, get over it and enjoy your hobby. All you do is grind yourself down.  Move on.

NEILB711,

Lionel usually picks up the shipment cost on any product they have found to have major problems, if you are a Military Veteran Lionel picks up the shipping on any business.

Deal directly with Lionel Customer service, the girls are great, explain to one of them what has happened, do it nicely, these girls are top Customer service people.

Because I am a disciplined old time US Army Warrant Officer, not much really makes me angry any more, nobody shooting at me any more, and I have a belly full of food most all the time.   You made the right decision on not wanting the LHS new address.  They could have been a lot nicer to you, as they dealt with you.  However forget about being angry over a Toy that does not work properly.  Lionel will stand behind their particular product.  

However unless we start getting more American made products, quality control is only going to get worse.   The real problem is the people in the USA, have accepted this newer way of doing business as normal.  Most all our younger generations have no idea that in my generation and before, when you purchased and item, any item, it worked perfectly right out of the box, and the stores were all doing reputable business.

PCRR/Dave  

I agree with Dave - the scheme of  'importfacturing' has diminished any sense of quality control with a good majority of products, not just our toy trains. Much less the 'servicing' of items by repair centers/repairmen. Products are designed to fail so you can perpetuate the cycle of buy/use/dispose when breaks or obsolescence. 

Anyway, call Lionel, get an RA number and return it. 

However unless we start getting more American made products, quality control is only going to get worse.

Sorry, but I don't think bringing manufacturing back to the USA is automatically going to bring back quality control.
Want quality product? - return every defective item for refund, don't accept repairs. Eventually the manufacturers / importers will see value in quality control. Right now they have little incentive.

I feel for you.  Yes, you should be angry.  But I also adhere to the KISS principle.  I would not have involved the 2nd shop.  They have "no skin in the game".  You have to wonder what Lionel was thinking in giving you that advice.  I agree with the others who would have asked Lionel for an RA number and shipping label and returned it to them.  Unless you are positive the local shop knows what it's doing, I wouldn't let them repair things.

George

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

However unless we start getting more American made products, quality control is only going to get worse.  

Ask today's kids in school how many want to be factory workers (excuse me, they're called associates now...) after they graduate high school or college.

Line assemblers do repetitive work and are evaluated on a units-per-hour basis.  They get one or two breaks a day plus a lunch break.  It takes a special mindset to do that type of thing for 40 hours a week.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

However unless we start getting more American made products, quality control is only going to get worse.  

Ask today's kids in school how many want to be factory workers (excuse me, they're called associates now...) after they graduate high school or college.

Line assemblers do repetitive work and are evaluated on a units-per-hour basis.  They get one or two breaks a day plus a lunch break.  It takes a special mindset to do that type of thing for 40 hours a week.

Rusty

A little off topic, but quality is about how something is produced, where how it is produced is thought about across the board, not where it is produced. The US car industry lost a lot of its dominance to foreign competitors who were using quality management rather than 19th century methods the US was using. Japanese plants in the US today on the other hand are as good or better quality than those made in Japan. Benz 25 years ago had some of the worst quality of production despite the image of German quality....

Chinese outsourced manufacturing is based in a cheap labor model, using methods that are suitable for mass labor and the quality you see is the result of that mentality. No monitoring of the quality of components being used, no inquiries based on poor quality in the field, it is producing an masse as much as possible as cheaply as possible, which basically was the model for a lot of US manufacturing before the 1970s and 80s.

The kind of manufacturing described in this post is almost dead or dying. The Chinese are moving upscale and are automating at a rapid pace and most of the manufacturing being done is heading that way. The mindless assembly line of turning a bolt or fitting an assembly died a long ago, lean production changed that, what jobs that are in manufacturing require training and skills, the plants that use the old model can't compete and either go offshore for dirt cheap labor and cheap product pricing where quality doesn't matter, or a modern plant puts them out of business. The toy trains remind me a lot of Benz before they faced real competition, they produced cars highly thought of that people were willing to pay a lot for,and willing to also face quality issues especially w high tech gear MB is known for...toy trains are a discretionary purchase that is expensive,  made by cheap assembly practices , that people are willing to deal with the warts that can happen

Try righteous indignation instead of anger.  It feels better.

Interesting comparison of auto and train import quality.  After l and a parent bought two highly similar 1977  cars of the same make from a large U.S. MFR., that were junk with identical problems, l reluctantly kissed goodbye to "buy American", and bought my first import.  The MFR., that parent had stock in, went bankrupt. I now have owned 3 different import makes, with one, exception, all being great cars, and that were so much better than the 1977's, it is hilarious  That exception means quality is a full time job, and not based on geography.  So l have not understood how autos are high quality and trains and other consumer goods are not. But the country making imported trains is not that making imported autos. Korea made good brass trains and now makes reliable cars. So both are possible....why is this not currently the norm?

Speak with your wallet.  Stop buying the junk they make anymore.

It’s called the Quality Improvement Process. Dr. Rice from Texan Am tried to sell it to US  automakers but was basically told to take it somewhere else. Well, he did. Went to Japan and the rest was history. I wonder if Lionel has a process. 

neilb711 posted:

I am feeling angry about this and want to know if anyone else feels I am overreacting. Long story short, on 4/7 I purchased a smoke fluid loader at a hobby shop that's an hour away from my house. When I set it up at home  it did not work. I call Lionel , the rep tells me they are having problems with the boards and I should return it.  I explain the store I purchased it from is over an hour away. The rep gives me a LHS, 15 minutes away to take it back to.  I've done business infrequently there over the years. The prices are not great but they are usually my second choice to go to as I try to support small businesses. On 4/10 I took the smoke loader in  explaining that Lionel said I should bring it here and they would ship it back. On 5/10 I call for status and am told it will be back in June. On 5/25 they call and say I should pick it up because they are moving and are not doing repairs or shipping to Lionel. I speak to the owner today asking why no one could tell me this when I dropped it off or did a follow up call on 5/10. He tells me he is sorry but sending an item back requires them filling out 25 minutes of paperwork and shipping costs. I point out the only reason I came there is because Lionel referred me to him. He tells me that was poor customer service on Lionel's part and there is nothing he can do. Then they gave me a flyer with their new address. I told them I didn't need the new address. I know the thousand or so a year I spend in that store is not going to make or break them but I truly feel this is poor customer service in a business where brick and mortar stores are struggling. I apologize for the rant but can anyone tell me if I am over reacting? I don't want to put the name of the store out there till I get other's opinions.      

Yes.  Aggravated and frustrated too.  I feel your pain.  Unfortunately, these kinds of poor customer service issues are NOT just limited to hobby shops.  However, I must say that 90% of the time I get good service.  In your situation, my days of dealing with that particular shop would be over.

How did this thread go from how to deal with a hobby shop to a discussion of the quality of American products.  This has been the subject of so much gum-beating on the forum that many forumites must be toothless.

romiller49 posted:

It’s called the Quality Improvement Process. Dr. Rice from Texan Am tried to sell it to US  automakers but was basically told to take it somewhere else. Well, he did. Went to Japan and the rest was history. I wonder if Lionel has a process. 

The guy you are talking about was W.Edwards Demming, one of the fathers of statistical quality control.Demming went over to Japan as part of the post war US administration in Japan and Japanese companies used his ideas as the basis for what is now called lean production and QIP, though they also added a lot of ideas demming never thought of.

The answer to quality is simple, the company has to care about it to put time and effort into it. Japan originally was known for making cheap crap like toys and tschotzkes, but they realized their future was in the high end. Japanese cameras took over, watches that wiped out the swiss, and eventually cars and so forth.  Brass models made in Korea were made by craftsmen, not low cost labor hired in off the street. The other thing is having your own factories, tv sets made in China are likely factories owned by the manufacturer, not outsourced to some factory you have no control over (sla' s are usually a joke). If you can make something relatively cheaply, sell it at a premium price and quality doesn't stop you from selling your product...then why bother?

Bigkid, i agree it was Deming who was the person who helped the Japanese after being rejected by the domestic manufacturers.   

Second, i dont think i would return something to a LHS that was purchased elsewhere.  At the very least, it's bad manners,IMO.

I  want to thank everyone for their thoughts. Just to clarify, it was not my intent to have a shop do warranty work on an item I bought elsewhere. The rep at Lionel said the item needed to be shipped back and suggested I take it to the LHS for shipment since the place of purchase was an hour away. I did explain that when I dropped off the piece. If they had told me then they couldn't do it I would have had no problem. If they had told me when I called on the 10th of this month they couldn't do it I wouldn't have had an issue. My issue is more that they sat on it for a month and some before they  told me they couldn't/wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want a shop to incur a cost on an item I didn't purchase there. I will be reaching out to Lionel for a return authorization. The lesson I take from this is if I find myself at a shop that is a distance from home I will test run any purchase before leaving.

I stand corrected. Yes it was Demming. My course came from Dr. Rice.