American Flyer GP7 FlyerChief Info

Dave

First, let me say thanks for coming on this side to share information about the product. It is really appreciated!!!

The improvements sound good over all, there will some guff about the truck mounted pilot, but I would say this is not a "scale" piece so in this case, IMO, I don't see it as an issue.  Heck, it did not stop most of us from buying the U33.  

One question, the trucks in the catalog picture look to tall, are the proportions on the truck appropriate for 1/64th?

Thanks again for playing on this side of the fence!

Ben 

Great Information,  Thanks so much.

Yes, thank you!

Brendan

NotInWI posted:

One question, the trucks in the catalog picture look to tall, are the proportions on the truck appropriate for 1/64th?

 

Here is an image from the truck CAD file, which is what the tooling is designed from, so it is accurate to what will be shipped.

Comparing it to the catalog image, the catalog does seem to be slightly "squished" from the sides - wish I had noticed that before. But the wheel base is still shorter than a typical Blomberg because we're using the Baldwin Switcher trucks.

Thanks

Thank you for the images.  They've answered a lot of questions and speculation about the changes made to the GP7.

I was taken quite aback by the trucks in the catalog and they weren't quite my cup of tea.  I will say I'm getting used to them (like I eventually got used to the old Gilbert design...) and with the new underframe, I think overall the looks of the GP7 are improved greatly.

Now, if you could just slim down the handrails a bit..

Rusty

Great information. Thank you. You have definitely raised my interest in getting one.

Hearing directly from Lionel is both refreshing and encouraging. The 2017 Lionel catalogue did not produce the excitement that products such as the U30C, Challenger, Y-3, SD70ACe, and ES44AC did when they first appeared; but reading about the updates to classic locomotives indicated that Lionel has not forgotten S scale. Maybe 2018 will be another big year for newly tooled rolling stock with scale-type detailing and options to exchange high-rail wheels and AF couplers with scale version. Thank you for the information, Dave.  It is great to know a manufacturer is listening and willing to share details. Your email was almost as rewarding as a new catalogue!

Dave,

Is there a possibility of a mock up appearing at York in April?

Rich

Dave, thanks for posting the GP 7 information here on the forum. I have a UP GP 7 on order. 

Mark, I find the iPad too large and awkward for the LionChief BT app. I have it on an old iPhone 6 I was not using. Perfect form factor. The app is really simple. 

If Mark is going to play that game then me too...C&NW please.  

If I had to guess we will see a GP in chessie and B&M next year, I think Lionel gave us a clue....

Ben

banjoflyer posted:

Next year do some arm twisting to have these liveries made in the GP7 and I'll buy two more!

Mark

Me too

Dave,

I join the other fellows here thanking you for the update on the GP7. I have been a TMCC/Legacy fan since the operating systems came out in AF. The idea of being able to run and watch your trains run from any location in the layout room put new life in the hobby for myself and others. The FlyerChief was frosting on the cake and now with Bluetooth capability, WOW, it doesn't get much better than this. The complaint I heard with LionChief/FlyerChief was needing separate controllers for each engine but the Bluetooth puts much of that to rest. I hope to see the Milw. RD also done with the FlyerChief, maybe SOO and CNW also. I thought I was done buying locomotives but you have relit my boiler. I have two FlyerChief locomotives now, wish they had Bluetooth capability, but there are more in my future.

I agree, you will probably hear some guff on what ever you do but the majority of us in S are high rail/toy train, and we are the silent majority. I for one appreciate all that you folks do for S gauge.

Mark, had to pitch some local roads here.

Ray

I second RayinS' suggestions for roadnames. Milw, Soo, and C&NW are winners for me. As is any road that ran out of the Chicago area. I ordered the NKP of the upcoming run. 

Dave,

Thank you so much for sharing this info on this forum.  You have done more to help sales of this engine then you could possibly know.  I'm placing my orders today!

--Rocco--

Would it have been so difficult to go a little farther and put actual scale details like handrails grabs, pilots etc... on this model? I can't imagine anyone on the scale side of S is lining up to buy this engine. Not sure I understand the logic of offering a product that only appeals to a portion of a niche scale.

S-Helper Service proved that customers from scale, hi-rail, and Flyer would buy well built scale models IF they could run with different wheels and couplers. If Lionel is going to redo the GP7 why not go all the way?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather have something like this any day of the week:

Those ERIE colors look really sharp!  I wish ANYONE would do ANYTHING (PA, FA, GP9, F3, F9) in S in Erie Paint, and (agreeing with JonnySpeed again) I would be over the moon if the engine had scale details.

LittleTommy

Frankly, once the AM GP9/18 came out, I don't think any Scaler's bothered with the Flyer GP7 since.  Even the original body alone required a LOT of work to make it pass muster in scale.  I remember seeing a Gilbert GP7 with Nimco scale wheels and Kadee's at an estate sale, it didn't really make the locomotive any more "scale" other than in operation.  A Gilbert PA body with an Omnicon scale conversion drive (Yeah, I got one of those hiding in the rafters...) isn't any more scale unless extensively reworked, particularly along the roofline.

If Lionel were to make an S scale GP7/9, they'd be better off starting from scratch rather than reworking the Gilbert design. 

Plus, the Scale side isn't the target for a FlyerChief locomotive anyway.  Scaler's didn't buy the Berkshires to convert to scale and they're not buying the Northern's to convert either.

Heck, it was hard enough to convince some of the Scalers about the merits of the U33C's, SD70's and ES44's...

Currently, the winds at Lionel are not blowing in the S Scaler's direction anyway.  I'm not particularly happy about that either, but it is what it is. 

I suspect the reworked FlyerChief GP7 will find it's place within the 85% of the market with no trouble, which is what Lionel's after.

Rusty

LittleTommy posted:

Those ERIE colors look really sharp!  I wish ANYONE would do ANYTHING (PA, FA, GP9, F3, F9) in S in Erie Paint, and (agreeing with JonnySpeed again) I would be over the moon if the engine had scale details.

LittleTommy

I've been collecting Erie decals lately. I may have something to show you in the near future ;-)

My problem is that even the AM GP7, while better, is a long ways off from being good enough for me. I would need to graft on all kinds of brass aftermarket parts to get it as good as what the Athearn model above comes straight out of the box. I don't want to have to do that for every single model I purchase.

Lionel could absolutely produce a scale, detailed GP7 with fine handrails along the lines of the SD70 and ES44. They could even take a page from SHS and make a generic electronic interface that could allow them to sell different version to different people.... AC/DC/Legacy/DCC/LionChief/Bluetooth. I guarantee Jon Z. could make that work today if they asked him to. Instead they decided this model was a better idea.

All I can say is Don Thompson of SHS was a genius and was WAY ahead of his time. The fact that the manufacturers today don't realize that and copy what he did is a crying shame IMHO.

jonnyspeed posted:

 

Lionel could absolutely produce a scale, detailed GP7 with fine handrails along the lines of the SD70 and ES44. They could even take a page from SHS and make a generic electronic interface that could allow them to sell different version to different people.... AC/DC/Legacy/DCC/LionChief/Bluetooth. I guarantee Jon Z. could make that work today if they asked him to. Instead they decided this model was a better idea.

All I can say is Don Thompson of SHS was a genius and was WAY ahead of his time. The fact that the manufacturers today don't realize that and copy what he did is a crying shame IMHO.

The thing is, that would make a $250.00 locomotive a $500.00 locomotive, which is pretty obvious that is not what what Lionel is interested in selling at this time. 

The F/C GP is not intended to be a full scale model.  That is the reality.

Sure it would be nice if everyone followed Don Thompson's example, had Lionel done that the cylindrical hoppers would have sold across market lines without any issues, we'd probably have a 57' mechanical reefer to play with and be looking at other scale stuff coming down the line.

The 8/9 pin interface is a dead issue at Lionel.  We were told this outright during the DCC development.  Simply put, Lionel will not give up on their proprietary systems any more than MTH will.

We all know Lionel can do better, but this is their current business plan.  That is also the reality.   It would take a MASSIVE culture change at Lionel to become the likes of Athearn Genesis, Rapido Trains or Scale Rail.

We all have a choice whether to buy the stuff or not.  Because my interests are not always strictly on the scale side, I may or may not buy an F/C GP when they hit the streets, it all depends on how I feel at the time.

Rusty

Lionel brought this GP7 with FlyerChief to market at a $250 retail price. I think that is a great deal and good for S gauge, it likely appeals to 75% of the S gauge market. I ordered one just to have even though I prefer an almost scale detailed engine with Legacy. If Lionel made what I am looking for it might still fall short of the detailing true S scale operators want,  the price would be north of $700 and it likely serves no more than 50% of the S gauge market. However I would have purchased a fleet of them. I also ordered a Legacy PA set even though they are not really detailed.

Another consideration could be should Lionel produce some engines that can only operate on 27" and larger radius track now that FasTrack is widely available?

Regarding the lack of a smoke unit in the GP7. I would have preferred one be included, the price likely would have been higher. All of my Lionel made Mikado's have fan driven smoke units in place of the original Seuthe units. If they fit in the Mikado they would fit in the GP7. More likely Lionel did not have an off the shelf unit that would fit, mine are not from Lionel.

I think Lionel should be congratulated on the 2017 catalog and encouraged to keep adding more.

We have other choices. The American Models GP9 is $250 for the deluxe line, and $210 for the standard-install-the-handrails-yourself version. While I accept FlyerChief, Proprietary control systems mean little to me. 

Legacy and MTH's DCS now support DCC, That's all the control I need. 

Thanks, Dave, for the update. I've ordered a NKP version and your info is very encouraging about the final product. Because this GP is clearly intended for use on hi-rail Gilbert-like layouts with Gilbert-style rolling stock and swinging pilots are to be fitted, please modify the electrocouplers so that they open far enough to permit their use for yard operations. In their current form, L-AF electrocoupler knuckles do not open far enough to permit dependable coupling.

Thanks again.

Bob

I want legacy scale pieces too, more than what there is at this point.  But I see the roll these traditional pieces play in S, no issues with Lionel putting them out, and I love the LC app.  The price point makes this a important piece to attract people, or at a minimum, maintain involvement.  

Ben

I think putting in a smoke unit would have required a rearranging inside the GP.

As Lionel's CAD drawing shows, there's not a lot of room to work with.  The motor would need to be moved to the rear truck, and the electronics's moved forward to make room.  Given what I see here, it seems like Lionel has simply modified the existing frame casting rather that redesign and retool it, which would add to the cost.

Rusty

banjoflyer posted:

I have noticed that the electrocoupler on the Frisco Northern doesn't open all the way.

Mark

At least yours opens, mine just buzzes!

Brendan

Hi all. Hope everyone is having a nice weekend.

I will relay all road name suggestions to Ryan. He's the one who chooses that.

The SGSU (S-Gauge Smoke Unit) is what we put in AF engines for smoke. As previously stated, it is too wide to fit inside the narrow hood of this engine. That is why it was left out.

We are planning on having a sample for April York. The factories are working hard for us for all new samples.

This GP was redesigned with the intent to be an American Flyer product, not a highly detailed scale product. We have done some fantastic engines in the past (Challenger, SD70Ace, etc) but those always come with the price to match. FlyerChief is intended for running fun trains and getting people interested in the hobby without having to put in a large amount of money.

I was unaware of the coupler issue. This has risen up high on my priority list of things to look at. For those who commented, could you please email me more details? My email is in my profile.

Thanks again!

Would it be possible to make it with two motors by using say a couple of 1833 flat can motors?

There would be enough room in the long hood and still have space either side for for movement on R20 track.

Would it be possible to make it with two motors by using say a couple of 1833 flat can motors?

That would probably necessitate a new truck design.

Rich

richabr posted:

Would it be possible to make it with two motors by using say a couple of 1833 flat can motors?

That would probably necessitate a new truck design.

 

Rich

If the motor is vertical it would just be a case of how to mount it to the top of the truck like the current round motor. I wouldn't have thought it would need a complete re-design apart from possibly a new mounting plate.

Any chance of the HO smoke unit from the Polar Express fit?

Art

Looks great! It takes guts posting in this forum because You won't be able to make everyone happy. But you have made me very happy!! I just have to decide on the one I will buy. 

If the motor is vertical it would just be a case of how to mount it to the top of the truck like the current round motor. I wouldn't have thought it would need a complete re-design apart from possibly a new mounting plate.

I believe the changeover to a vertical design for GP7's was done with the C&O bell ringer, although the truck used appeared to be similar to the new PA type truck, also vertical drive. The horizontal can motor truck was based on the original Gilbert truck design. The new sideframes require a shorter truck.

Rich

richabr posted:

If the motor is vertical it would just be a case of how to mount it to the top of the truck like the current round motor. I wouldn't have thought it would need a complete re-design apart from possibly a new mounting plate.

I believe the changeover to a vertical design for GP7's was done with the C&O bell ringer, although the truck used appeared to be similar to the new PA type truck, also vertical drive. The horizontal can motor truck was based on the original Gilbert truck design. The new sideframes require a shorter truck.

 

Rich

I'm not sure what you are trying to say Rich, sorry, my view on it is that Dave shows above a design drawing of the basic Baldwin truck which is going to be used in the new GP with a round can motor which is not shown. All I am trying to say is that instead of using a normal round can motor in the Baldwin truck, is that a flat can motor is subsituted which could then be used both ends. The flat can motor is sitting vertical and would have enough room in the long hood to fit easily and still have enough room to rotate on R20 curves. You would then get a locomotive with eight wheel drive, yes, it would mean some additional re-design but I wouldn't think it was insurmountable to do.

I don't want two motors or smoke a unit.  They have advertised a price based on the design as he has shown us.  I don't want any price change as I have placed my order.

Leave it alone, make the product, and ship is as early as possible.

Bill, I never indicated that it should compromise the current offering, it was just a possible suggestion on how it could be done if Lionel wanted to take it to another level of production.

You seem quite content on how it is being offered which is fine, but there may be a lot of people out there that may just like to see the GP with twin motors.

Advancement is accomplished by not standing still all the time.

You would then get a locomotive with eight wheel drive, yes, it would mean some additional re-design but I wouldn't think it was insurmountable to do.

Not insurmountable but additional expense. The truck being considered for the new GP7 is probably a reuse of the current Baldwin truck which was changed to vertical drive a few models ago. Reuse of existing parts is a money saver. I too wouldn't mind a dual motor GP but I understand the price point considerations. The vertical motors are much better pullers than the horizontal cans were.

Rich

I do not post much and yes I am an S Gauger.  Interesting discussions.  I have not bought anything for years but i did buy the Berkshire ( oh wait since it is C&O so it is  a can a something).  I missed the TMCC and Legacy boat at the dock.

I am a self described low railer  a step above total toy but no where near the Stover/Tuveson hi rail.

I thought if there was a Santa Fe  blue GP I would consider.  Well guess what.  Yes I also have an axe to grind  with the L for lot of reasons going back to  the crabby lady in Mount Clemens. 

I am pleased that Lionel responded.  Maybe I am the target market.  In any case the moths are coming  out of my wallet.

richabr posted:

The truck being considered for the new GP7 is probably a reuse of the current Baldwin truck which was changed to vertical drive a few models ago. Reuse of existing parts is a money saver. I too wouldn't mind a dual motor GP but I understand the price point considerations. The vertical motors are much better pullers than the horizontal cans were.

 

Rich

There's no "probably" about it.  Dave Olson from Lionel has stated that it's the Baldwin truck.

Rusty

richabr posted:

You would then get a locomotive with eight wheel drive, yes, it would mean some additional re-design but I wouldn't think it was insurmountable to do.

Not insurmountable but additional expense. The truck being considered for the new GP7 is probably a reuse of the current Baldwin truck which was changed to vertical drive a few models ago. Reuse of existing parts is a money saver. I too wouldn't mind a dual motor GP but I understand the price point considerations. The vertical motors are much better pullers than the horizontal cans were.

 

Rich

I had a close look at the CAD drawing of the underneath view and it looks like they are using the same powered truck assembly for the non powered dummy under the long hood without motor of course and probably without the gear assemblies.

If this is the case then there is probably a very small change in the design to get a flat can motor to fit both units. As for additional cost to purchase an eight wheel drive GP, would it really be much more than the cost of an additional motor.

Perhaps Dave would like to comment on the feasibility of doing this and would it really be viable to do.