American Flyer Prewar Hudson variations 1680 / 447

I noted something else different about the early versus late motors.  Note the location of the firebox (red light).  The early version has the firebox light attached to the platform in the cab that the cab weights are mounted to and the light points down.  The late version has the light mounted to the bracket that holds the motor in place and the light points to the rear.  The difference appears to be necessary due to the late reverse mechanism that would take up the area occupied by the light on the early version of the motor.

NWL

one of my fav loco's,got me into collecting af prewar,this is a keeper ,thanks for all  your hard work,t

NWL: A scholarly and nicely detailed analysis of this Hudson series with great looking models. Interesting that some tenders were diecast aluminum, instead of the usual zinc alloys often subject to crazing due to impurities. AF was apparently ahead of their game in that regard. THANK YOU for sharing your dedicated expertise in prewar Flyer!

@Tinplate Art posted:

 Interesting that some tenders were diecast aluminum, instead of the usual zinc alloys often subject to crazing due to impurities. AF was apparently ahead of their game in that regard. 

 

Flyer prewar has very few items that were cast in aluminum.  Other than this tender, the most common would be the Zephyr, which was cast in two halves and then joined together (the roofs of these sets are polished to hide the joint).  Flyer also did the 9915 engine in aluminum and like the Zephyr it was cast in two halves and joined together, with a polished band down the top of the roof.  

The technology obviously was there for using aluminum as a casting material. Was it a matter of cost to use the problem-prone zinc alloys? Of course, aluminum would soon be increasingly utilized for military aircraft production.

@Tinplate Art posted:

The technology obviously was there for using aluminum as a casting material. Was it a matter of cost to use the problem-prone zinc alloys? Of course, aluminum would soon be increasingly utilized for military aircraft production.

 

Actually, the technology for aluminum casting was not quite advanced at that point, at least for the production of American Flyer trains.  I know that the Zephyr sets and 9915 engines were cast using sand casting molds, as opposed to dies.  Not sure about the tender bodies, but I suspect it was somewhat crude technology also.  

As I remember from my high school foundry class where we made cope and drag sand molds, such castings from them required much finishing machining. Pressure die casting with zinc alloys was probably a more refined and proven process at that time. 

Nice write up!

One thing I'd like to add to your data is that in 1938 there were two different trim versions of the Hudson.

One has the blacked out hand railings and piping along the bottom (as correctly came with your 4 chrome cars in set #20)

The other version has copper piping and brass railing trim (Not "blacked out") and came with 4 red passenger cars, in a slightly cheaper set #17  ($6.00 less for red cars instead of chrome).

You can also see in the catalog picture that both versions are shown.  The trim difference is mentioned under the description for set #17.

This image is from the dealer catalog, fyi.  The consumer version does not mention it, but does show it in illustrations. Hard to say if Gilbert was religious about making sure the correctly trimmed loco was always put into the correct set or not, but both versions of this locomotive exist and I have seen examples of both sets that are catalog correct.

@Ives1122 posted:

Nice write up!

One thing I'd like to add to your data is that in 1938 there were two different trim versions of the Hudson.

One has the blacked out hand railings and piping along the bottom (as correctly came with your 4 chrome cars in set #20)

The other version has copper piping and brass railing trim (Not "blacked out") and came with 4 red passenger cars, in a slightly cheaper set #17  ($6.00 less for red cars instead of chrome).

You can also see in the catalog picture that both versions are shown.  The trim difference is mentioned under the description for set #17.

This image is from the dealer catalog, fyi.  The consumer version does not mention it, but does show it in illustrations. Hard to say if Gilbert was religious about making sure the correctly trimmed loco was always put into the correct set or not, but both versions of this locomotive exist and I have seen examples of both sets that are catalog correct.

Thank you for the information.  I was unaware of this and had to get my 1938 catalog out to review, but do not have a dealer's catalog, where you have taken your information from.  I do see that the 1938 catalog image shows the freight set as having the copper/brass trim and the passenger set as having the blacked out trim.

A couple of questions for you, as you mention having seen both examples of the engines:

1) I cannot quite read the details of your image from the dealer's catalog, so what version of the engine is described as coming with the freight cars (copper trim or not)?

2) do both versions that you have seen, with the brass versus blacked out trim, have the 1680 decal?

3) if not, does the version with the copper/brass trim simply use a left-over earlier version of the engine that has the older style motor/reverse unit?

4) how was the tender decorated?

I ask, because I have always wondered why the Hudsons with the 1680 decal are so difficult to find and did recently purchase a 4 car Hudson set with red enamel cars, which would be from 1938 and I thought the engine was incorrect for the set, as it is the pre-Gilbert version of the engine, which has the older pendulum style reverse unit and the tender with the green stripe decal.  The set also came with individual boxes, with the red cars featuring the cowboy and indian decorated boxes and the engine featuring the older style Chicago era box (plain brown with top and bottom) and the tender coming with no box.

If the version that you observed was also the earlier style engine, this would make sense as Gilbert purchased American Flyer from W.O. Coleman in early 1938 and there certainly could have been leftover engines from the Coleman era.  I know that I have heard reports of set #12, the green streamline car set with 43224, as coming with both tender and cars in the pre-Gilbert type boxes, which would signify they were selling leftover inventory from Chicago.  If they had leftover cars from the pre-Gilbert Hudson sets, they certainly should have had leftover engines from these sets as well.

NWL

Thank you for the write up. Looks like mine is the 1939 version.

I've always wondered if mine was a 36 or 37, looks like it's a 37.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

 

A couple of questions for you, as you mention having seen both examples of the engines:

1) I cannot quite read the details of your image from the dealer's catalog, so what version of the engine is described as coming with the freight cars (copper trim or not)?

-There are no details given for the freight set.  This clip from the dealer catalog is the only place I have ever seen mention of the different locomotives.  Basically they were just describing what made the red set different than the chrome, so if you were a dealer looking to buy, I guess it answered the question about the price difference and what was included.

 

2) do both versions that you have seen, with the brass versus blacked out trim, have the 1680 decal?

3) if not, does the version with the copper/brass trim simply use a left-over earlier version of the engine that has the older style motor/reverse unit?

-Great questions that probably need further review to be answered properly.  At this point in time, I believe that the answer might be yes to all, in that you can find both decals and both motors if you look around long enough.  I would speculate that there were some  leftover locomotives used up (perhaps they repainted the window red in some cases???) as well as some new locomotives being made.  I unfortunately don't really collect these.... yet (LoL).  But I'm rather fascinated by Gilbert production of the leftover Chicago equipment.  Thus I don't have immediate access to sets to provide you with info as I haven't been visiting too many friends lately.   I think it's definitely important to keep in mind that collectors often swap pieces in and out of sets that may not be correct, so it becomes very hard to say what originally came in a set unless it has good provenance and some boxes.  To be honest, I didn't even realize there was a motor change on the Hudson until I read your post.

Obviously Gilbert recycled, changed, and reused items, as evident by some of the blue and light yellow six wheel truck streamliners being rebuilt from 4 wheel truck cars at the factory (you can see where the screw holes on the bottom were tapped/threaded for belly pans and paint disruption at those screw holes, along with  paint disruption at the truck mounting location for the old 4 wheel truck when it was moved inboard for the six wheel truck.  I can only assume they were using leftover motors, locos, and tenders in the same manner.  I don't believe any parts were getting thrown away or not used.

 

4) how was the tender decorated?

-I think both white lettering or green stripe lettering decals could both be correct in 1938, as leftovers were being used up.  I think it would be very unusual to ever find a green decal tender in the chrome set though, as this wouldn't look so good.  With the Chrome #20 set being top of the line, it probably was given the best/newest equipment and assembled with more attention to detail.

I ask, because I have always wondered why the Hudsons with the 1680 decal are so difficult to find and did recently purchase a 4 car Hudson set with red enamel cars, which would be from 1938 and I thought the engine was incorrect for the set, as it is the pre-Gilbert version of the engine, which has the older pendulum style reverse unit and the tender with the green stripe decal.  The set also came with individual boxes, with the red cars featuring the cowboy and indian decorated boxes and the engine featuring the older style Chicago era box (plain brown with top and bottom) and the tender coming with no box.

-I think your answer here is because it was only a one year production with the 1680 decal.  I feel like many of the 1938 locos / sets are harder to find correct, where someone hasn't messed with it, or repainted it because the decal flaked off.  Once again, I would bet that they used up everything they got from Chicago first and that in 1939 when everything went to flat black and rubber stamp lettering, they had more or less used up their stock of assembled locos or at least decorated shells that came from Chicago.

If the version that you observed was also the earlier style engine, this would make sense as Gilbert purchased American Flyer from W.O. Coleman in early 1938 and there certainly could have been leftover engines from the Coleman era.  I know that I have heard reports of set #12, the green streamline car set with 43224, as coming with both tender and cars in the pre-Gilbert type boxes, which would signify they were selling leftover inventory from Chicago.  If they had leftover cars from the pre-Gilbert Hudson sets, they certainly should have had leftover engines from these sets as well.

-Agree

-Another great thing to keep in mind is why did Gilbert create an all new tender in 1939 (433A).  Could it be that they were not producing / buying the large tender shell castings at all and thus didn't have enough in their stock that came from Chicago to keep supplying all the various locomotives?  Perhaps they needed to save their remaining large tender shells for the Hudsons in 1939.  The large Hudson body loco and tender disappeared after 1939, as 3/16 began to take over in 1940.

 

It's definitely fun to examine this era of production in detail.  I included a couple pics of assumed 1938 red window Hudsons without blacked out trim that I found from searching through past auctions, whatever that's worth.   . One has an AF decal and the other a 1680 decal.  It's always possible that a 1680 decaled red window loco could have a repro AF decal put on if the owner wanted to fix a flaked decal, without restoring the entire piece.

As soon as I can get eyes on some of the local sets I know about, I'll update with what I find.

Ives1122,

Thanks for your response.  I had a friend send me a photo of a 1680 he had that had the unpainted trim and his motor looked very original.

NWL

To NWL, I recently acquired an AF 1680 locomotive.  I have some questions about the wheels.  Was this locomotive intended to negotiate standard O31 curves? My will not.  All 6 drives wheels have flanges.  I thought that because the middle drivers have flanges that was what was keeping it from going around the O31 curves.  But I see that the 1680s I the pictures also have all 6 drive wheels with flanges.  They also look like they have replacement wheels if so, where can you get them.  I have scoured the internet but have not been able to fine them.  Do you know if there is a quartering tool available for O gauge wheels.  Any advice you can provide for any of these questions will be greatly appreciated. John B.

Take a look at p13 of the 1937 catalog. It describes the 1680 as designed for 40" diameter curves. That is the track included in the sets in 1937 and 1938. All six drivers are shown with flanges, unlike the Gilbert designed O gauge and S gauge engines. The 1680 was designed by American Flyer in Chicago prior to the Gilbert purchase.

NWL and IVES1122,  nice conversation on these Hudson models... I was aware of some of these details, but have never studied them in detail thoroughly.  These post help further that study!

Thank you guys for the information. Any tips on where to find replacement wheels and a quartering tool?  My drive wheels and the trailing trucks wheels have some cracks and a few chips so I will need to replace them soon. Thank you.

Wheels:  Ebay parts locos. Beware... there are multiple types of these wheels. This is the only place I have found.

Quartering tool:  Mark One eyeball and the markings on the wheel press. Thankfully these do not require the precision of the 700E.

Harry Hennings of Hennings Hobbies has the replacement drive wheels for the Hudsons.  He sells them in sets of 4 (2 with gear hub and 2 without gear hub), so if you need to do all of the wheels, you need 2 sets. 

I quarter mine by eyeball, so I cannot help you much there.  Maybe Harry has something.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Harry Hennings of Hennings Hobbies has the replacement drive wheels for the Hudsons.  He sells them in sets of 4 (2 with gear hub and 2 without gear hub), so if you need to do all of the wheels, you need 2 sets.

I quarter mine by eyeball, so I cannot help you much there.  Maybe Harry has something.

Are you one of those lucky people who have calibrated eyeballs ?  This reminds me a a fellow member of the Tech Model Railroad Club in 1957-58 who scracthbuilt very good looking steam locomotives without using a ruler.

@mlaughlinnyc posted:

Are you one of those lucky people who have calibrated eyeballs ?  This reminds me a a fellow member of the Tech Model Railroad Club in 1957-58 who scracthbuilt very good looking steam locomotives without using a ruler.

No, I just line them up and press them on, one at a time.  There is some play in the drive rods and if you account for that you are generally ok on doing these. 

@AmFlyer posted:

Take a look at p13 of the 1937 catalog. It describes the 1680 as designed for 40" diameter curves. That is the track included in the sets in 1937 and 1938. All six drivers are shown with flanges, unlike the Gilbert designed O gauge and S gauge engines. The 1680 was designed by American Flyer in Chicago prior to the Gilbert purchase.

I have a 1680 motor that I've been thinking about how to find a buyer who will really appreciate it.  After reading unnamed AF's note, I set it back on the track to test.  My test loop is O31, and I and run it there before but not through a switch.  The motor was fine going around the 31" curves, but couldn't make it through a Lionel O gauge switch.  I tried it on a prewar manual swatch and that didn't work.  It hangs up on the raised flangeways on both switches.

Then I measured it against a Lionel motor..  The 1680 wheelbase is 3 11/64 (about 3 6/8).  the Lionel wheelbase is 3 1/8 with blind center drivers.

The motor was part of a slightly butchered 1680 that had a sheet metal pilot, wood cylinders and bent paper clip valve guides.  So I thought it worth restoring by itself.

I believe this must be a 1937 motor as it has the old style reverse mechanism.  That mechanism was so badly damaged that all I could do was remove it to get access to the wiring.  I rewired it to run forward only.  That was a problem.  Couldn't figure out how to make it turn at all until one of our local motor gurus tole me that one side of the field was wired to the pickup.  It wasn't easy to find the other side of the field and wire it to one of the brushes.

It looks to me that someone who is good at metal working could install a Lionel E-unit for reversing current to the brushes.  It would be simple to install an AF DPDT switch (from old s-gauge locos) for manual reversing.

Now the motor runs quite well and I 'm wondering what to use as the starting price in an eBay auction.  I'm thinking around $60.  Any thoughts on that ?

Just found this thread NWL and as posted above, thank you for taking the time to share your work. It is not easy to put together a write-up like this and you did a great job.

So... it looks like I am the current "caretaker" of my uncles 1937 version. For good or bad, the unit is running fine but has been repainted into a Chicago & Northwestern engine.

With your information, I will be placing this on the pile of projects to bring this back to the 1937 looking version.

However, and I know it my train, I really do like the look of the red windows verses the gray.

Maybe a 1937 version with red window frame??? It can be my version of a fantasy scheme.

In any case, thank you very much for taking the time to share with the forum.

Charlie

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Since 1938 marks a number of changes, including ownership of the company, it should be noted that the motors change slightly between the 1936-37 versions and 1938-39 versions.  Below is a 1936-1937 type motor.

Note the rear of this motor is clean with no attachments.  The reverse unit for the 1936-37 motors are a pendulum type reverse unit, which has a lockout that slides up and down, between the rear and middle drive wheel, a moveable pendulum at the top of the field at the center, and an attached pendulum at the front of the motor, contained in the box attached to the front of the motor.

Hope this helps to clarify the differences between the various 1680 - 447 Hudsons.

NWL

This thread is awesome! Thanks for all of the details. One thing I noticed, the two 1936 1680's I have don't have a lockout, was that something that started later in the 1936-37 runs?

     Thanks,

         Jon

Jon,

You are correct, the 1936 does not have a reverse lockout.  I never noticed that before, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

NWL

Was the track packed in the '36 set all 4 rail, or just a few sections of track and when the tender passed over them the whistle blew? If it was all 4 rail track, how was the whistle controlled? If just a few section were included with the set did the whistle blow every time it ran over the track, or was a button included so the operator could decide so the whistle didn't operate every time. Thanks.

@Chuck Sartor posted:

Was the track packed in the '36 set all 4 rail, or just a few sections of track and when the tender passed over them the whistle blew? If it was all 4 rail track, how was the whistle controlled? If just a few section were included with the set did the whistle blow every time it ran over the track, or was a button included so the operator could decide so the whistle didn't operate every time. Thanks.

My understanding is that the sets with the whistles in the cars would have had all 4-rail track packed with the trains.  I know there are jumper wire sets (as evidenced by the envelopes marked as such) for connecting crossovers and switches into the track.

As for controlling the whistles in the cars, there is a special curve section that includes a connector to attach a power wire / button to the 4th rail.  I believe that they provided the simple door bell button, that was included with the 1937 Hudson billboards, to operate the whistles.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

My understanding is that the sets with the whistles in the cars would have had all 4-rail track packed with the trains.  I know there are jumper wire sets (as evidenced by the envelopes marked as such) for connecting crossovers and switches into the track.

As for controlling the whistles in the cars, there is a special curve section that includes a connector to attach a power wire / button to the 4th rail.  I believe that they provided the simple door bell button, that was included with the 1937 Hudson billboards, to operate the whistles.

Here is a pic of the 4-rail curve and bakelite whistle button for reference.

It has not been easy finding a set of passenger cars for my 447.

@balidas posted:

It has not been easy finding a set of passenger cars for my 447.

Finding 3 nice chrome cars for the 1939 447 is not easy. 

It took me quite a while to find this boxed set with 447 and 3 chrome cars.  I actually bought it, while at home skipping the April York show a few years ago. 

Well, now I can say I've actually "SEEN" some. lol! There is also an observation car that goes with these.

Nice! Thanks for the look see.

Bali

Here are some close-ups of my 1680 and 4 car set from 1938

The 1939 set is the same, but the engine is all black with silver-stamped 447 below the cab windows and the tender features a silver-stamped American Flyer, and there are only 2 coaches and an observation. 

NWL

Very nice! My 447 is the 1939 version for sure and it's a beauty! Now that I know they actually do exist I'll continue to look for these cars. Thank you again!

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Here are some close-ups of my 1680 and 4 car set from 1938

NWL

Nice looking set!

Nice looking 1938 set. Either of the chrome sets are tough....and good looking! The 447 is one of my favorites!

My setis a piece together set, I got the 1939 Hudson and freight tender with the crane car set off FB market place, then found one chrome car on ebay and a second on market place then Jon Edwards was kind enough to offer a couple more so I could put together my four car set.  So not matching and varying quality, but  they sure make a nice set.  Since I have located the Blue and Red cars on six wheel trucks but my Red cars are close to what I considr needing a repaint...  My other problem is I have a couple more Hudsons in the basket and missing a few parts for each.  I think main thing I am missing is a sheam chest for one and some siderods for the other.  We will see..... SO many projects!!

Dennis,

All you need now is the yellow cars on 6 wheel trucks.  A set of three of them go with a 435 in 1940 only.

The set is in the background here

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

Dennis,

All you need now is the yellow cars on 6 wheel trucks.  A set of three of them go with a 435 in 1940 only.

The set is in the background here

I recently got to see a beautiful set of 1940 yellow cars with the 435, they are quite nice and hard to find.

Having read this conversation, it occurs tome that this group is the place to seek some advice.  I have pieces of a 1680 that was abit messed up when I got it.  I have these pieces

- boiler with all fixtures but only one handrail.  I made a replacement handrail with #14 brass wire,but the curves are not perfect.

- traing truck

- motor that had a messed up reverse unit.  I removed the pieces and figured out how to wire it to run forwrd only.

My question is what is the best way to realize whatever is the value of these itemss.  I'm supposin there are folks who could use them.

i f