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I'm not complaining and I have no answers. I am just curious as to why the Capitol Limited is scheduled at night? I thought it would be cool to take a train from Alliance, OH or Pittsburgh, PA to Chicago, IL. The train was appealing because I can take my bike and I figured the scenery would be cool. But departure is at pretty rough hours and it would be dark out. It was like this a while ago when my friends took one from Flint, MI to Chicago, IL. I dropped them off way late at night.

Anyway, what's up with that? Is it just because passenger service is a lower priority than freight but both use the same track? Or is it because Northeast Ohio is in the middle of the route?

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@BillYo414 posted:

I'm not complaining and I have no answers. I am just curious as to why the Capitol Limited is scheduled at night? I thought it would be cool to take a train from Alliance, OH or Pittsburgh, PA to Chicago, IL. The train was appealing because I can take my bike and I figured the scenery would be cool. But departure is at pretty rough hours and it would be dark out. It was like this a while ago when my friends took one from Flint, MI to Chicago, IL. I dropped them off way late at night.

Anyway, what's up with that? Is it just because passenger service is a lower priority than freight but both use the same track? Or is it because Northeast Ohio is in the middle of the route?

You need to take into consideration where the train starts from (Washington D.C.) and the time it departs (about 4PM), and the final destination (Chicago) arrival time (about 8:45AM).  Thus, your guess that "Ohio is in the middle of the route" is spot on. Being essentially an overnight train between Chicago and D.C., you can't expect daytime hours in Ohio. The same went for the old NYC Twentieth Century Limited and the PRR Broadway Limitd from back in the old days.

@Hot Water posted:

You need to take into consideration where the train starts from (Washington D.C.) and the time it departs (about 4PM), and the final destination (Chicago) arrival time (about 8:45AM).  Thus, your guess that "Ohio is in the middle of the route" is spot on. Being essentially an overnight train between Chicago and D.C., you can't expect daytime hours in Ohio. The same went for the old NYC Twentieth Century Limited and the PRR Broadway Limitd from back in the old days.

That makes sense. A train just seems like a lot less of a hassle compared to an airport so it's appealing to me. I don't know if that's true though.

Were day light passenger services between lesser cities ever common? The greatest disappoint for me is not being able to take a train from Youngstown to Pittsburgh (or Cleveland, if you're one of those Browns/Indians fan types haha). It would be SO nice to jump on the train, go to the city, hit up a basement game and bar, then head back on the train. That would be so convenient!

I believe the schedule is driven primarily by demand.  Many people don't want travel eating up their "productive" time so if they can do it during sleeping time, that eases the "time deficit."

The tri-weekly Cardinal from Chicago to Washington and New York goes through the New River canyon in West Virginia during daylight hours.

Last edited by PGentieu

Way back when there were more trains scheduled in general, there were more options for timing for daylight routes in Ohio.  With the consolidation to one train, as HW points out all Amtrak long distance trains are scheduled largely along the lines of the original railroad big name trains.  Leave in the afternoon and arrive in the morning. 

I rode the Capitol in 2014 from DC to Cleveland and at least got to enjoy the C&O canal, Harper's Ferry, and the best of the scenery.  Scheduled arrival time was 3 am in Cleveland.  CSX did a decent job of keeping the train on schedule, but NS kept us in a line of 35 MPH freight trains.  The conductor told me at the time, the new NS software couldn't figure out that a 79mph train could safely pass a 35 mph freight train when there was traffic on the other track.  I hope they finally fixed that by now.  Overall I enjoyed the trip.

Martinsburg, WV shops. 

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Just rolling past the scenery on the route of the C&O canal.

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Emergency Power in Pittburgh, PA where the "Three Rivers" terminates.

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Specific to the NS scheduling of the train, we didn't arrive in Cleveland until 7 am.  4 hours off schedule. 

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The Cap runs from DC (4:05 departure) heading towards Cumberland and points west and passes by less than 30 minutes from my place. If I'm out and about in the afternoon I'll frequently catch it as it goes through Old Town Gaithersburg, MD. Just about always on time so I'll see it about 4:40 or so. Will get a video next time.

Last edited by johnstrains
@BillYo414 posted:

Were day light passenger services between lesser cities ever common?

A long time ago, sure. Before the decline of passenger trains. Even in the late '50s. Looking at a 1957 PRR timetable - there were four or so trains a day that stopped in Alliance on the New York to Chicago route (a couple of those were Pittsburgh-Chicago). Most of the limiteds, including the Broadway, didn't stop there. Stops at Alliance were at 12:48a.m., 6:50a (flag stop), 9:42a (flag stop) and one that made pretty much all stops, leaving at 12:49p.

Nine trains left Pittsburgh for Chicago daily (a couple of those didn't run Saturdays).

I started to look into the Youngstown-Pittsburgh area - but there are complexities of day games and night games. PRR and NYC/P&LE had three or so trains a day each way.

David

I think its scheduled for about 17 hours. So how would you get it to arrive and depart at reasonable hours and run the route during the day? Even a 6am departure would put the train in Chicago very late into the evening assuming it was on time, and in the middle of the night if it was late. Then you have to pay the cleaning crew overnight pay to clean and turn the train to go back the next morning.  Its probably cheaper to staff all the support crew during the day, and the train is conducive to sleeping in a sense, because you're parked in a seat or a bed for hours on end.  It simply makes more sense to arrive having a full day to be in the city you arrived in, rather than showing up looking for a hotel to go (back) to bed in.

Morning arrival also allows a margin for error to catch the late afternoon departures of other trains.   

Honestly though, you really have to want to take the train. I priced it out (cardinal one way, cap ltd the other) and ended up just buying a plane ticket to chicago for $200 RT.   Even in goat and chicken class on the train it was about double that price.

Last edited by Boilermaker1

Interesting stuff guys! It's hard to imagine that many trains coming and going to Youngstown! But I've seen some freight footage of the mills and I know it to be true. I didn't consider that 17 hours doesn't evenly fit in the 24 hour clock. That's a good point.

I will probably take the Amtrak eventually, just for the experience. I have only ever been on tourist scenic trains. It would be cool to take a train for purpose.

If eastern scenery is what you’re looking for, ride the Capitol eastbound from Pittsburgh. The trip down along the Youghiogheny River and past Ohiopyle in the morning is absolutely spectacular!

You could still take your bike and, if you’re ambitious, bike the C&O Towpath from DC back out to Cumberland and catch the train back to Pittsburgh from there.

Curt

When I can, I love taking the train for business.  When I work the 3rd Rail table in the Orange Hall I typically fly to BWI and catch the train to Philly and transfer to the Keystone Corridor where I have an uncle who lives in Exton.  So much more relaxing than driving and it helps that my uncle is a TCA member as well!  My last business trip on the train was sadly all the way back in 2016.  Need to fix that.  Unfortunately in AZ I have two options in the Southwest Chief and the Sunset Limited, but they don't serve destinations where I currently have projects and only the Chief is likely to get me there on time. 

Speaking of bike paths - the Great Allegheny Passage trail at Ohiopyle is quite nice. It's on the former Western Maryland right of way. I stopped there a couple times and rode while driving to the Midwest from the D.C. area. It's been at least 10 years since I've been there. Finely crushed rock, as I recall.

I'm sure there have been other posts about this - one can ride from D.C. along the C&O Canal towpath, and hook up to the GAP to ride to Pittsburgh.

David

Re the Cap Ltd...

Go back 70 years or so...  Dad rode the Cap westward from D.C. for most of his business travels.  Departure time...around 5 PM...was really convenient because his office was at 51 Louisiana Avenue, a mere three blocks straight shot from Union Station.  (In fact, if you went out the front door of his building, crossed LA Avenue, you'd be standing on grounds of Capitol Hill!)  I remember, too that if he was ultimately going to the west coast, he'd board a Santa Fe pullman...a silver 'star' in the midst of the blue/gray streamliner...and spend the next three nights in the same room!

But I digress...  The Beano train that followed the Cap by about 30 minutes was the Columbian...all coach.  THAT was the train Mom and we three kids rode to Chicago most summers on our way to Wisconsin (Mom's folks).   One of my favorite haunts for the early part of the journey was the dome car.  We'd head for the diner for dinner at first call, and then to the dome car as we continued beyond Harper's Ferry and into the mountains in the dwindling twilight.

Well, the Beano's dome cars  had a feature that they celebrated in advertising, but IMHO fell way short of practical: A bank of rooftop floodlights to light up the scenery for the night ride!  What a joke!  As the train would wend its way through the valleys with ever steepening walls of rock, brush, trees,...and track-hugging structures...it was nearly hypnotic to catch a glimpse of anything flashing by!.   Some of the smaller towns in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, etc. we passed through had homes that literally faced the track about 25 yards off the right-of-way.  Dad would laugh at the thought of somebody nodding off (or some other activity!) in an upstairs bedroom as the passing dome car suddenly flashed a few floodlights into their private world!

As the twilight faded to darkness, though, mostly I remember just a lot of jibber-jabber from a few insomniacs using the dome seats for conversation, not viewing.

It was almost as if the ol' Beano was trying to make the best of its night time run from D.C. to Chicago for those not ready to crawl between the crisp white sheets of a bed(Cap Ltd) or find some comfortable sleeping position in a reclining coach seat (Columbian).

There was, however, one spectacular advantage of that night time run when approaching Pittsburgh.  Mom, if she was awake herself, would rouse us kids to see...and feel!...the passing steel works in full operation.  Yes, I remember that sometimes there would be small cars with glowing ingots parked a few tracks away from the mainline, and you could feel the warmth on the car window as you passed.   The flames and orange glows from burning gas fumes, showers of sparks, building interiors, etc. were literally awesome to experience in the night!   Much better than those floodlights on the dome car roof!!

And, yes, our early morning arrival in Chicago was perfectly scheduled for our Parmalee taxicab dash from Grand Central Station to Union Station to catch the Burlington's Morning Twin Cities Zephyr for our final run up to LaCrosse.  That daylight run along the Mississippi River in Burlington's iconic dome cars was as grand a finale for this kid as imaginable!   No rooftop floodlights needed, either!!

As for Dad and his business trip rides on the Capitol Limited, upon arrival in the Santa Fe pullman in Chicago he and his fellow through passengers were given two options.  They could either stay in the car as it was shunted about the Chicago yards (no air conditioning, no other cars to wander to) on its way to Dearborn Station for attachment to the Super Chief...about  a couple hours of isolation..., or they could make their own way from Grand Central to Dearborn stations to enjoy Chicago until departure time of the Super later that evening.  Dad always used the Chicago intermission for business and/or a special lunch at one of Chicago's finest restaurants.

Finally, I would be remiss to not mention another advantage of that overnight run between D.C. and Chicago...both ways!:  Breakfast and dinner in a B&O dining car.   Man, oh man!...I can still smell that dining car, see all the gorgeous china and tableware, crisp table linens, carafe of spring water, a fresh flower by the window, taste the French toast and sausage, the turkey dinner with all the trimmings,  and remember dipping my fingers in the paper-lined finger bowl provided each patron at meal's end.  Talk about feeling like royalty!!

Train-riding memories of our mid-century youth....hammock or not, a great way to spend an afternoon with daydreams.

KD

Last edited by dkdkrd
@dkdkrd posted:


There was, however, one spectacular advantage of that night time run when approaching Pittsburgh.  Mom, if she was awake herself, would rouse us kids to see...and feel!...the passing steel works in full operation.  Yes, I remember that sometimes there would be small cars with glowing ingots parked a few tracks away from the mainline, and you could feel the warmth on the car window as you passed.   The flames and orange glows from burning gas fumes, showers of sparks, building interiors, etc. were literally awesome to experience in the night!   Much better than those floodlights on the dome car roof!!



KD

This is pretty wild to imagine! My grandma told me that they actually pulled gondolas of people through the mills when she was a kid for a tour. Talk about a different era haha

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