Amtrak may use buses for part of LA-Chicago trip & NOW the California Zephyr

To me, it would make more sense to run the eastern section from Chicago to DFW via Newton.  Or revive the route on the current Transcon via the Texas Panhandle.

If there are only two trains a day on the track in question, could it be exempt from the PTC requirement, like part of the route the Cardinal uses?

This from the August issue of Trains (from a list of questions Trains asked Amtrak on this matter, and hadn't received answers to as of deadline):

(Amtrak says) Positive train control will be required and "those costs Amtrak can't afford to pay." The lightly used trackage falls under the FRA's "PTC exempt" category. Portions where the two Chiefs usually meet have centralized traffic control, and also have Santa Fe's Automatic Train Stop, which automatically applies brakes if signal indications are ignored.

End material from Trains.

I don't have the knowledge to say if the above is correct.

Hope to take the train later this year.

David

Wonder if the auto train to Florida will be partly bus?

As if anyone is going to want to be dropped off the train in Dodge City, KS, the middle of nowhere, and then ride 400 miles on a bus. Chicago to Albuquerque section will die. Then the Albuquerque to LA section will be killed for lack of ridership. RIP, Super Chief.

What a ridiculous idea.  Absurd.  No one is going to take the SW Chief if you have to ride a dumb bus.  Why not go from ALB to DFW and then ORD ...this might be OK.

Perhaps Amtrak should reroute the Chief to the BNSF southern freight mainline and bypass ABQ.  A bus could be run between ABQ and Gallup or Belen.  This would most likely make more sense than a 400 mile bus trip since the distance between ABQ and those cities is much shorter.  

It doesn't make any sense to take Chicago / LA passengers on a 400 mile bus ride in the middle of their trip.  

 Of course, BNSF would most likely object to the train running on the already crowded southern mainline.

NH Joe

Last spring I took a trip and meet up with a buddy of mine in Kansas City, I rode the SWC from Chicago to KC...... A great trip their an back, Had dinner with a nice Mennonite family who was going to Kansas for a family reunion........ and on the way back my buddy and I ate breakfast with a gentleman from Toledo and ended up talking to him for the whole trip back to Chicago........ this Fall my buddy and I are going to KC again........ to many BBQ places we didn't get to eat at..........  and hopefully a few other train watching locations to hit also and I will be ridding the SWC again......... all aboard

While this administration is killing passenger rail, here's what China, the up-and-coming world leader as the U.S. abdicates the role, is doing. Modern high speed rail now covers much of the country (and they didn't start until 2008!!). As the U.S. once again fails due to ignorance and short-sightedness and abandons high speed rail, as U.S. airspace rapidly continues to the saturation point and congestion problems mount, China surges. For those who argue that the U.S. is too large, note that the land masses of China and the U.S. are approximately the same size. Of course, other nations, including Korea, Japan, and most of Europe, have also left the U.S. in the dust. Meanwhile, back in the U.S., the ignoramous this administration has put in charge of Amtrak, an anti-rail former airline executive, wants to use buses to plug gaps in what little rail is left. That's how the U.S. is competing.

(From an article in Business Insider, where a reporter rides and compares high speed rail in 4 different countries)

Most new high-speed railway stations in China look more like airports than train stations. This is the one I encountered in Xi’an, a city of 8.7 million people. It had high ceilings, futuristic architecture, and nicely spaced gates for the platforms. Most railway stations I encountered were directly connected to the city's metro making for seamless travel.

China's railway network served nearly 3 billion passenger rides in 2016, a figure that has increased by about 10% each year. It's little surprise. The nationwide system covers 15,500 miles, a figure made more impressive when you consider the first line was built in 2008 for the Beijing Olympics.

The interior of China's G-Class trains looks like the interior of an airplane with three seats on one side and two on the other. There is luggage storage at the end of the cars.

You people on here that want to complain to Amtrak, you can call Amtrak,s complaint dept, & email Richard Anderson. I did it both ways when I got back from Grand Jctn on Saturday. Believe me it paid off. In the last 3 years I have taken the Zephyr 3 times, the Empire Builder twice, The SW Chief 4 times, The Meteor 4 times and the lake Shore 6 times and a bus from Boston to Albany. The diners going away really bothers me. I let them know.

eddie g posted:

You people on here that want to complain to Amtrak, you can call Amtrak,s complaint dept, & email Richard Anderson. I did it both ways when I got back from Grand Jctn on Saturday. Believe me it paid off.

How were you "paid off"?  Did you receive a refund? Did you even receive a response from anyone at Amtrak? 

In the last 3 years I have taken the Zephyr 3 times, the Empire Builder twice, The SW Chief 4 times, The Meteor 4 times and the lake Shore 6 times and a bus from Boston to Albany. The diners going away really bothers me. I let them know.

Er, EIGHT MILLION for one town in China. Little less than the total population of the Texas Triangle.  Much larger population in in China VS USA in the same area.

That said, there are locations in the US where this MIGHT work.  Texas Triangle.  Midwest out of Chicago.  Bay Area-Sacramento.  LA-San Diego.  (But not the current cross state system.)  Cascadia.

And MIGHT is in all caps.

I still think HSR is not as green as people think it is.  Going from, say 80 to 160 mph is twice as fast, but uses FOUR TIMES as much energy...Plus costs go up really fast to build. Trains need more spacing between each other. HSR, by nature, precludes local and regional expresses on its corridor.   Somehow, a line built so a train can get to and run at 110-125 mph mile after mile  is the Goldilocks zone for train travel.  Plus one can use diesels first, then go to overhead at a later time.

With TSA and having to get to the airport plus get there early, true HSR loses its luster.  Actually, by that standard, Greyhound or mega can outrun a jet Downtown to Downtown between Houston and Austin or San Antonio.  Both by bus are about 3 hours. One needs that just to get to the airport for check in and TSA, much less get to and from the airport, and the flight itself.

Plus at 110 to 125, the line could run a modern version of the SUPER C using off the self equipment during off peak times.

Back to topic.  Maybe it is time to retire long haul cruise trains.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Er, EIGHT MILLION for one town in China. Little less than the total population of the Texas Triangle.  Much larger population in in China in the same area.

That said, there are locations in the US where this MIGHT work.  Texas Triangle.  Midwest out of Chicago.  Bay Area-Sacramento.  LA-San Diego.  (But not the current cross state system.)  Cascadia.

Nope. The Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) of Houston alone reached 6.9 million last year. The Dallas/Ft. Worth MSA was 7 million, and that was back in 2015. So that's now over well over 14 million, and that's just for these two metro areas.

Besides, current populations are really irrelevant. You don't build transportation systems for conditions that exist at the time construction begins! What matters is what the populations will be when the rail lines are completed. I went to a real estate conference last year here in Dallas, where I live, and they're projecting this area alone will have a population of over 25 million in less than 20 years.

Now, does anyone think there's not a need to start building high speed rail service (except, of course, for the bozo this administration has put in charge of Amtrak)? There's no way on earth that the air transportation system, already approaching saturation, is going to be able to handle this.

This was a big topic of conversation at yesterdays UTU meeting here in Albuquerque because it's attended by BNSF employees, Railrunner, and Amtrak employees. Amtrak is demanding that the state upgrade the track north out of Albuquerque, but of course the county/state does not have the funds. This has been an ongoing battle on top f the PTC issue here. Amtrak employees that are based here are already talking about where or what they are going to do WHEN this happens. It sounds like the end of the Southwest Chief as you know it, but we hear this almost every year don't we.  

Are there still semaphores on the line, particularly in New Mexico - Chapelle, Lamy areas? Pondering heading out that way in September or October.

David

HOTWATER, I received a very large Voucher toward my next trip.

Amtrak has kicked this can down the road.  First, when ATSF/BNSF moved most or all freight through Belen.  The PTC issues added gasoline to the fire.  BTW, is not the law which commanded PTC over 10 years old.

1.  In some ways, BNSF is not thinking.  If this track was faster, some short high priority freight trains could use the old passenger main.

2. What happens if the tranacon gets blocked?

High speed rail is skipping a step.  We need normal speed rail.  Look at the schedules - average speeds are often below 40 mph.

We are blowing buckets of money in California for high speed rail, when what we need is a four track main line with 80 mph trains.

opinion.

While I am at it - I hate buses.  When Amtrak schedules them due to track maintenance, we go some other way.

OK, I'll play.  What are they going to do in the event of the inevitable missed connection?  You know, when the bus gets there too late, or the train does?   Dodge City will be like the old Wild West!  

I m tired of reading about AMTRAK and their problems. It was created by and a product of the politicians and Congress. Surprised its screwed up ??  Rode it once-Pittsburgh to Altoona- miserable trip in ratty cars, terrible "station" in Pittsburgh.  What other nation are doing  has no bearing on it. Tired of hearing about that too. The 400 mile gap is obscene. 40 miles on a bus would be too much.

bob2 posted:

High speed rail is skipping a step.  We need normal speed rail.

Trouble with that is that many people won't give up driving their cars when the train isn't any faster.

jim pastorius posted:

I m tired of reading about AMTRAK and their problems. It was created by and a product of the politicians and Congress. Surprised its screwed up ??  

As is common knowledge, one of the major reasons Amtrak is screwed up is that it gets short shrift from the freight railroads, who own the tracks. That part has nothing to do with Congress, unless they somehow change railroad operating rules (probably very unlikely). Granted, it's been treated like the proverbial red-haired stepchild by Congress in the funding department. (Under Trump's budget, Amtrak's funding is infinitesimal - approximately 1/5804th of the Federal Budget). But until Amtrak gets dedicated trackage (unlikely to happen) or the freight railroads allow it to have higher priority, Amtrak is going to continue to have major schedule problems. Of course, that's a terrible problem for any transportation business to bear.

bob2 posted:

High speed rail is skipping a step.  We need normal speed rail.  Look at the schedules - average speeds are often below 40 mph.

We are blowing buckets of money in California for high speed rail, when what we need is a four track main line with 80 mph trains.

opinion.

Your mainline sounds like thw old PRR or NYC.

If done right, though, your concept COULD be a toll road.  Tracks and trains are owned by different companies.  Provided the passenger service is not compromised,  time slots could be sold for short, fast freight trains that could keep up.  Kind of like is done in Europe now, or the Alameda Trench in LA, although the Trench is all freight.

Who knows.  Amazon might just build the Prime network!

Why Amtrak sucks

This is a knee jerk move by Anderson to kill the Chief. Who is going to want to transfer from a train to a bus, ride 400 miles, and get on another train? And if the transfers are 2 am or something, you can bet that ridership will drop and then bye bye Chief. Anderson believes that long distance trains are a money pit and not worth keeping. He wants to restructure Amtrak into a bunch of state supported corridors between major population centers. And use unified diesel trainsets like the old Turbo Trains of the 70’s but obviously newer designs. With those type of trains, PV owners won’t be able to hitch a ride on Amtrak anymore. Like if there is a cab at each end without a knuckle coupler. They want to get rid of the P42’s, Amfleets, and Superliners for those new DMU sets. What’s wrong with Siemens Chargers and newer coaches? Anderson wants to run Amtrak like a business, which means cutting the fat to keep costs down and somehow make a profit. That means that extra operations like excursions don’t fit Anderson’s mold. Amtrak is going to be lean and mean now. The lesser populated states will have their trains cut first because those are the long distance routes like the Chief, Builder, etc. Yes Amtrak sucks. We have one of the worst passenger rail systems of the industrialized nations. Even Canada has the Rocky Mountaineer which looks better than anything Amtrak can offer. I love those dome cars with big windows.

The Amtrak long distance trains have the viewing cars with big windows.

NKP Muncie posted:

Are there still semaphores on the line, particularly in New Mexico - Chapelle, Lamy areas? Pondering heading out that way in September or October.

David

YES, we left some rock cars out there in the siding at Chapelle a couple weeks ago. Got some good photos of the water tank that is still there as well. 

Semaphores still operational.

Thank you for the info, Laidoffsick. Aiming for September.

David

eddie g posted:

The Amtrak long distance trains have the viewing cars with big windows.

Hi eddie g...........You are gotta try the  VIA Rail Canadian   Vancouver to Toronto its a priceless jewel from the past.

Maybe they should merge with Greyhound.

Robert K posted:

“...Anderson believes that long distance trains are a money pit and not worth keeping...”

And he is right!

With the interstate highway system and Americans love of cars, Amtrak long distance trains will never be profitable or successful. They long ago became irrelevant money-losers. 363,000 passengers per year is .001% of the population of the United States. Why should taxpayers subsidize something like this for such a tiny group of the populace?

clem k posted:

"...its a priceless jewel from the past..."

Exactly. They key word there is “past.” The era of long distance travel by train is over, as well it should be.

Its still with us and still very good !! Just like 765.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Robert K posted:

“...Anderson believes that long distance trains are a money pit and not worth keeping...”

And he is right!

With the interstate highway system and Americans love of cars, Amtrak long distance trains will never be profitable or successful. They long ago became irrelevant money-losers. 363,000 passengers per year is .001% of the population of the United States. Why should taxpayers subsidize something like this for such a tiny group of the populace?

clem k posted:

"...its a priceless jewel from the past..."

Exactly. They key word there is “past.” The era of long distance travel by train is over, as well it should be.

On the other hand, it is expected that the number of air travelers will double in the next 15 years. Many experts say this will lead to an impossible congestion of airspace. It will also lead to impossible situations with respect to airport congestion, traffic congestion to airports, etc. Air traffic delays are already getting to be a major problem. For example, I had two family members miss plane connections last week, and have to stay overnight at a hotel, due to air traffic delays (in this case, airplanes getting in and out of O'Hare.)

Airline personnel also said that increasingly hot weather (which of course is getting worse every year) is having a negative effect on air traffic. It creates density altitude problems, delaying flights, reducing the carrying capacity of airplanes, etc. Many people don't know it, but the aircraft themselves have heat limitations, just sitting on the ground. There are a lot of factors in the growing problem of air travel limitations.

The rail demand on the Eastern Corrider will replicate itself in many areas of the county - due to oversatuation of airspace, inadequate capacity of airports, air traffic delays, highway saturation, etc. that the East Coast experiences. That this will lead to a demand for alternate means of transportation, such as increased rail, there is little doubt.

Obviously, there is high rail traffic use in the East Corridor, due to the saturation factors. Washington D.C. to Boston is almost 450 miles. So we are not talking about demand for just short distances. There is little question in the minds of many that if travellers were offered a 200 mph train from Chicago to New York, it would be heavily used. More and more. Just because people have a car, that doesn't mean everyone cares to spend many hours on increasingly crowded highways driving long distances. Including with children in a tight vehicle! The increasing demand for air transportation is proof of that.

In case noone's noticed, traffic in and out of cities is becoming overwhelming, and often even between cities as well. And once people arrive at their destination, finding a place for their cars is getting to be a huge problem. As has been stated, the new generations of Americans don't care as much about driving. The times, they are a'changin'. They'd rather just get to their destination, and then rely on Uber or public transportation to get them where they want to go. (We did that last week on a trip to Washington D.C. Didn't even consider renting a car. No place to park it and even if you found someplace, parking costs were through the roof, traffic was awful, etc. We just got an Uber or cab from the airport and to everywhere else, or used the intercity commuter trains.)

If China can cover itself with high speed rail in just 10 years, then, if the U.S. had the willingness and foresight, it could do it, too. This nation has a history of waiting for a crisis before it does anything, though. As Winston Churchill once said, “You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing..... after they have tried everything else.” 

To me, it is getting to the point that geting from point A to point B is too much of a hassle.  Too much time, too much money, too much stress, too little manors.....

With air space becoming an issue, maybe high/er speed rail needs to be built by the AIRLINES to expand market share.

Suppose American and/or United built the Texas Central HSR from DFW to NW Houston.  Would crush United at IAH and SW at Hobby.

CLEM K,   I don't understand your reply?????

Tail end Observation dome car,   Via Rail "Canadian"  February  2014 Unusually quiet I think it is early morning. usually hard to get a seat in tail car, two other cars forward. One for coach and two for sleepers.