An Amtrak Regional on its way from Washington to Charlottesville, Va was somehow routed to Richmond instead.
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Well, they can't blame the head-end crew this time!
I don't know about that P51. I don't think the crew threw the switch to get on the wrong track but the crew should know what track they should be on to go wherever they are going. Especially, if the track goes in different directions ie. they start off going east and then take a diverging track to go north. The crew should know when they should start to go north. The video said they were going the wrong way for 10 minutes. They should have called the dispatcher right away.
It's one thing to be on different parallel tracks. You might usually take track #1, now you are on parallel track #2. You may do this to pass a train on track #1 that is parked or broken down or waiting to make a move. But, the crew usually knows what is going on. If they don't have it on their train orders (like a work crew on track #1) the dispatcher should call them to let them know what's going on.
Rick
Dagnabbit, are Sylvia Siamese and Norma Bates Kitteh up to their old tricks? ;-) 
Mitch
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Gentlemen,
More and more computer generated mistakes, very dangerous stuff!
PCRR/Dave
In this case it was a matter of going South on CSX (ex. RF&P) vs South on NS (former SOU), their intended route. I can see where it would take 10 minutes before the engineer thought, "this ain't right!" But the engineer doesn't throw the switches.
I'm supposing this was CTC territory. Sometimes train dispatchers screw up. I've wondered what happens in cases like this. Even if it's the dispatcher's fault, shouldn't the train crew immediately notice if they are routed wrong and make inquiries? They are supposedly familiar with the territory and watching where they are going, if they are awake and not busy texting etc.
Not to make excuses, but sometimes train dispatchers get extremely busy when different things are going on in different parts of their territory. Maybe train A had a break-in-two, train B crew went dead (out of hours), train C lost their air, train D had a grade crossing accident, Amtrak 101 had a watermelon thrown through a window, MOW wants track-and-time on the main at Podunk, and dispatcher Joe got some bad food and had to make a sudden sprint to the rest room. Stuff happens.
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At least Bugs Bunny was not the engineer on Amtrak 3 in ABQ!
When things of this sort happen which in my 45 years is close to never...everyone from day one is taught when your not sure or are lined the wrong way you are to stop immediately !! This is fail safe built into the rule book. Stop and ask questions never do you proceed and figure it out as you go. conrail john
Seems to me like the whole crew has limited experience. If you don't know where you're going ,I'm sure an Engineer pilot could have been provided... It's the ten minute part that astounds me.
I'm not sure what type of clearance would be requited (if any) for the different route. Leaving without a clearance or some type of authority was a "fireable offense " at one time. Same thing running a stop signal. You're gone.
Yep " In doubt the safe course must be taken."
I am surprised it took the engineer that to realize he was going the wrong way.
Marty
I take this train home fairly frequently, but wasnt on it yesterday. South of ALX there's a switch you need to go through to cross from CSX to NS. Its a rather abrupt crossover, so I'm surprised no one managed to notice it, but the tracks run parallel for a little bit before the CSX tracks flyover the NS line. Without knowing how far they actually got, its hard to say just how long it took to notice. Theres a number of easily identifiable reference points on the NS line even if you miss getting bumped across the switches (the ethanol transfer, vulcan stone, the beltway mixing bowl), so I suspect someone caught on rather early and may have been told to not stop on the mainline, as it is rather busy. Perhaps they were told to proceed to a siding or something so they could figure it out, without blocking the VRE and CSX traffic.
Its a CSX error, not an Amtrak one.
kanawha posted:An Amtrak Regional on its way from Washington to Charlottesville, Va was somehow routed to Richmond instead.
Ken.....the Amtrak crew knew that we are ballasting the yard modules this weekend and wanted to help! 
Peter
But I think even Bugs would have known something was wrong when the indication on the signal where the switch was wrong!
Boilermaker1 posted:I take this train home fairly frequently, but wasnt on it yesterday. South of ALX there's a switch you need to go through to cross from CSX to NS. Its a rather abrupt crossover, so I'm surprised no one managed to notice it, but the tracks run parallel for a little bit before the CSX tracks flyover the NS line. Without knowing how far they actually got, its hard to say just how long it took to notice. Theres a number of easily identifiable reference points on the NS line even if you miss getting bumped across the switches (the ethanol transfer, vulcan stone, the beltway mixing bowl), so I suspect someone caught on rather early and may have been told to not stop on the mainline, as it is rather busy. Perhaps they were told to proceed to a siding or something so they could figure it out, without blocking the VRE and CSX traffic.
This sure makes a lot of sense to me. That seeme like it explains a lot of how this likely occurred.
It's a news story. Give it all the credibility it deserves. Then switch back to the ball game.
I'm not aware of any sidings on CSX (ex-RFP) between the junction and the Occoquan River(except Auto-Train terminal, which could hold an Amtrak train. Plus the CSX mainline is 3 track from the junction to near the Franconia-Springfield VRE station. I believe that the old GSA branch marshaling yard is gone. The Fort Belvoir Railroad is gone. Probably took awhile for the CSX dispatcher to figure how to safely do a lengthy backing movement.
RICKC posted:I don't know about that P51. I don't think the crew threw the switch to get on the wrong track but the crew should know what track they should be on to go wherever they are going. Especially, if the track goes in different directions ie. they start off going east and then take a diverging track to go north. The crew should know when they should start to go north. The video said they were going the wrong way for 10 minutes. They should have called the dispatcher right away.
True, but there are a lot of controlled switches and a lot of signals in the Northeast Corridor being negotiated by Amtrak Engineers who were car attendants two years ago. It's not ever again going to be like the days when a Pennsy Engineer with silver hair and 30 years of experience, running a GG1 powered express, had intimate knowledge of the territory in darkness, daylight, or bad weather.
I miss that old Pennsy Engineer with his steely gaze and supreme competence, especially some days more than others as demonstrated by this silly error. Delmonico's has become Denny's in the cab of many passenger trains, and it's going to stay that way.
Exactly right, Tom.
Then there was the case, right after the UP + CNW "merger", when all the dispatching was moved out of downtown Chicago to Omaha. One fine day, an experienced CNW Engineer was taking the hot doublestack train out of a downtown Chicago intermodal yard (Canal Street?). From extensive experience, the Engineer quickly realized that the Dispatcher in Omaha had him signed out westbound on the WRONG track. Only one of the multiple main tracks had been properly lowered in order to accept the much taller doublestack container trains, and the Engineer knew that he would be proceed westbound on the WRONG track. He toned up the Dispatcher, identified what train he was, and tried to explain to the Dispatcher about which track & signal indications he SHOULD be getting for his westbound movement.
The Dispatcher god mad, and told him to "TAKE THE SIGNAL INDICATIONS. AND DEPART!". The Engineer did just as he was told. Not that many miles further west, at track speed, the train went under the low overpass, and quickly destroyed all the top containers on the first 10 to 15 cars of the hot-shot doublestacker! Quite a few very interesting photos were posted on the internet of that event, and maybe even one railfan magazine.
Hot Water posted:Exactly right, Tom.
Then there was the case, right after the UP + CNW "merger", when all the dispatching was moved out of downtown Chicago to Omaha. One fine day, an experienced CNW Engineer was taking the hot doublestack train out of a downtown Chicago intermodal yard (Canal Street?). From extensive experience, the Engineer quickly realized that the Dispatcher in Omaha had him signed out westbound on the WRONG track. Only one of the multiple main tracks had been properly lowered in order to accept the much taller doublestack container trains, and the Engineer knew that he would be proceed westbound on the WRONG track. He toned up the Dispatcher, identified what train he was, and tried to explain to the Dispatcher about which track & signal indications he SHOULD be getting for his westbound movement.
The Dispatcher god mad, and told him to "TAKE THE SIGNAL INDICATIONS. AND DEPART!". The Engineer did just as he was told. Not that many miles further west, at track speed, the train went under the low overpass, and quickly destroyed all the top containers on the first 10 to 15 cars of the hot-shot doublestacker! Quite a few very interesting photos were posted on the internet of that event, and maybe even one railfan magazine.
Do you have any documentation for this story? What year did it happen? I find it hard to believe that an engineer would knowing wreck his train if he had all the facts of over-height loads and restricted clearances. And proceed at track speed to "make a point". It sounds like a "story" to make the CNW engineer sound smart and UP dispatchers look stupid. "I didn't do it." Maybe they were all in error, including the department that didn't install over-height detectors for that route.
Well ACE, the UP Dispatchers had plenty of opportunities to "make themselves look stupid" after the UP management moved all dispatching from Chicago to Omaha. It took a pretty long time for the Harriman Dispatch Center to effectively learn what Chicago commuter operations were all about, what with three different METRA operations on former CNW lines. Not until a 130 car loaded coal train tied up the entire West Line during the commuter rush period, did Omaha have to send Mark Davis to Chicago in order to appease the Mayor. It all made headline news on all the Chicago TV channels and newspapers.
Hot Water posted:Well ACE, the UP Dispatchers had plenty of opportunities to "make themselves look stupid" after the UP management moved all dispatching from Chicago to Omaha. It took a pretty long time for the Harriman Dispatch Center to effectively learn what Chicago commuter operations were all about, what with three different METRA operations on former CNW lines. Not until a 130 car loaded coal train tied up the entire West Line during the commuter rush period, did Omaha have to send Mark Davis to Chicago in order to appease the Mayor. It all made headline news on all the Chicago TV channels and newspapers.
I don't doubt that screw-ups happened, but I'm not seeing documentation to substantiate your story about the experienced CNW engineer who knowingly wrecked his double-stack train to make a point with a negligent UP dispatcher.
I recall a true story, that one time the entire Harriman Dispatching Center was shut down when someone burned their popcorn in a microwave oven, causing a smoke-out and train delays all over the system.
The attached document may amuse you, if you enjoy stories about UPRR dispatcher ineptitude. Please excuse the slight digression from the original topic.
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Could be worse. Could be the Last Train to Clarksville...
Mitch
Wyhog posted:I have a firsthand account. I was running BN's #121 west from Sheridan WY to Laurel MT ...
...The DS was in a mood and harshly said, "I don't have time to tell all you crews what's going on. You just follow the signals". So I dutifully complied ... I got a great big smile on my face! Don't ask, just follow the signals he had said. Ok Mr. DS, I will ...
... After the DS confirmed the coal train was stopped and got their exact location he once again gave me back up instructions. This time I complied, backed around the connection track, got lined towards Laurel MT, and departed. Chuckling. I never heard a word about any of it. Obviously the DS was not going to turn himself in for the several screw ups he had made.
So you thought it was a good joke to amplify someone else's screw-up? Isn't there a larger goal of running the railroad efficiently, and you could have insisted that you were lined up wrong instead of compounding a problem? That's a real failure to communicate effectively.
What happens with different jobs on the railroad is that so many people are in the same rut with their job year after year, and they don't see the perspective of other people in different jobs, but they are supposed to be working together for the same railroad.
I've heard diesel shop mechanics say about locomotive engineers, "how hard is it to pull a handle?" They might figure they are doing much more difficult and skilled work in maintaining and repairing locomotives. It's not great fun to reach way inside an oily crankcase to install P pipes and carrier snap rings etc. It's easy not to see the scope of other people's work if you haven't experienced it.
A good friend of mine was a railroad dispatcher for nearly his entire railroad career, 39 years. A few times I got to sit in with him at work, sometimes for hours at a time. Sometimes different things would happen to cause a chain reaction affecting different trains. Sometimes the crews would chatter among themselves, complaining about lengthy delays, but they didn't know the big picture of what was going on elsewhere and how it was tying things up. And the dispatcher might not have time to explain it to them because he was constantly on the radio with different people in different places and trying to keep track of everything. Day shift dispatchers are sometimes on the radio constantly, arranging track and time for MOW equipment.
Many of these jobs get tedious when you're doing the same thing year after year, especially if you work irregular hours. Train crews might think that dispatchers have cushy easy desk jobs while they are out there on the road with weird hours in a drafty locomotive with a stinky toilet and if they break a knuckle pin someone has a hard slog to change it, perhaps at night in a snowstorm.
Dispatchers can and do screw up. Sometimes they might have "attitudes" on the radio. Some of them maybe aren't right for the job. But what I don't understand is why a train crew would deliberately make an improper movement just because they can conveniently blame someone else and make them look bad, because the dispatcher "had an attitude". Is that professionalism in your work? Maybe it's no wonder some dispatchers "have an attitude" if a train crew will take the opportunity to make them look even worse if they make a mistake.
If you have ever read FRA train accident reports, you may notice that blame is often distributed many ways. Although one person may be primarily at fault in triggering the circumstances of a wreck, the FRA will often fault the chain of command and lack of safeguards and backups that will prevent one person's screw-up from amplifying into a worse problem.
Similar principle if you drive a car. Someone else might be at fault and make a bad move in traffic, but do you want to have a collision with them if it is in your power to avoid it -- just so you can blame them?
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Well, I'll just say this:
- When both parties are courteous on a radio conversation, it certainly never makes things any worse. Neither opinions from train crews nor snippy replies from Dispatchers help anything.
- Over years, a number of Train Dispatchers have wished that they had not answered a train with, "Just proceed on signal indication." Fateful words, they are.
When I was assigned to the Lubbock and Sweetwater Subdivisions, I called our second Trick DS, a very fine Dispatcher and pleasant, slow-talking west Texan, to ask how the railroad was running. He replied, "Aw, Tom, I got so many trains out there that I can't talk fast enough to keep 'em all movin'," 
Amen to that, Tom. Well said.
It was once said by a train service man, "oh, I like dispatchers alright...but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one."
This one is pretty simple at least to me..... It seems the Amtrak crew didn't know the road or assignment very well. Yes the Dispatch lined them up the wrong track but they should have immediately stopped.
Speaking of dispatchers.. I had about a 60 mile drive to work and on the way I picked up a hitch hiker who's car had broken down. I mentioned I was a brakeman heading for work at Tor yard (now MacMillan yard) and he could let me know when to let him off. He never let me know got out of the car in the parking lot with a smile on his face and went the front door of the adm building. I went to rear to book in and take the crew bus to the shop.
About a month later I find out he's the Chief Dispatcher and I never had a bad trip as a conductor for years and years after that. (neat guy) . I knew quite a few dispatchers from my train order days, Most were track side station operators at one time...
Plain and simple. If the dispatcher gives you an order and you don't obey it, they you're the one who's getting called on the carpet and probably disciplined.
steam fan posted:Plain and simple. If the dispatcher gives you an order and you don't obey it, they you're the one who's getting called on the carpet and probably disciplined.
That's a pretty general statement. What do you mean?
steam fan posted:Plain and simple. If the dispatcher gives you an order and you don't obey it, they you're the one who's getting called on the carpet and probably disciplined.
Regarding HW's story: if the timetable special instructions spell out that a certain route has limited clearances, does a dispatcher have authority to over-ride the rules? If the engineer and conductor know their train won't clear and proceed anyway because the dispatcher said so, are they off the hook?
If there is a wreck, everyone involved is held to account. Safety depends on everyone. What I'm hearing is a failure to communicate because people get attitudes.
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Well, speaking "attitudes", during an outing to Portland, OR on UP 844, The Dispatcher came on the radio and called "UP 8444, north!" as we were enroute to Pocatello, ID. The Pilot Engineer, seated behind the Engineer reached for the radio mic, and our Engineer said, "Don't answer him, we're 844.". So,,,,,neither the Pilot Engineer behind the Engineer, nor the Pilot Conductor responded. In fact, the Pilot Conductor ask me, what was happening? I explained that way back in time the steam engine was renumbered from 844 to 8444 when new diesel units arrived, but since that old diesel was retired in 1989, the steam engine got her original number back, 844. However, there is currently a new diesel on the UP system with road number 8444, so the Dispatcher MIGHT be call them!
The Dispatcher called for UP 8444, three more times. Finally, after a fairly long pause, the Dispatcher called for,"UP Steam Special, northbound at Mile Poll XXX". The Pilot Engineer quickly responded and stated that we were "UP 844, steam special, north at mile poll XXX". Communications then proceeded normally.
Gregg posted:I knew quite a few dispatchers from my train order days, Most were track side station operators at one time...
You made a good point, Gregg. Many of us Baby Boomer railroaders had similar experience with picking up our orders from the Operator, who one day became our Dispatcher. If we were friendly and easy to work with when they were Operators, then we usually got the same treatment from them when they were Dispatchers. (A very small number anointed themselves little kings when they moved upstairs to the Dispatching Office.) When it was practicable to do so, most of them got even with Conductors who had marched around the Yard Office and Telegraph Office as though they were little kings. Those Conductors got the lousy pick-ups and set-outs, and they went in the hole for other trains unless they were on a hotshot. And those same Dispatchers became Chief Dispatchers, and arranged the calling order of trains to help those little kings catch as many drag freights as possible. You never know how relationships might turn at work.
Anyway, back to the topic, there is a different kind of Dispatcher and a different kind of Engineer out there today. They most likely never worked face to face, and few of either craft ever used train orders. They are trained better, at the expense of being more experienced and skilled. They might have very little railroad service time, as there are not the number of entry level craft jobs that older railroaders had to work through in order to become, Dispatchers, Engineers, or Conductors. In spite of this, some of every operating and non-operating craft, who have a nature that makes them want to do more than the minimum required at work, and have the natural abilities necessary for the development of the necessary skills related to their type of work, do make very fine railroaders. Others remain clueless about anything they were not trained to do, and they usually "get by". But not always.
Harry Browers, we did not fully appreciate you while we had you. Some days, we really miss you, man.
I thought the rule was that an engineer had to be pre-qualified for the area in which she/he was to run a train.
I recall recently reading about an Acela engineer who noticed that a local he was passing had a green light ahead of it, as did he. Knowing the territory, he realized that the light on the adjoining track should have been red because a mile ahead he was going to be crossing over onto that adjoining track. So he went into emergency and a crash was averted. A signal maintainer had erred.
Notwithstanding steam fan's comment, I suspect that an engineer who disregarded a dispatcher's directive to move, and ran over a car stopped on the tracks or a bridge out, would probably not be disciplined for disobedience.
Hot Water posted:Exactly right, Tom.
Then there was the case, right after the UP + CNW "merger", when all the dispatching was moved out of downtown Chicago to Omaha. One fine day, an experienced CNW Engineer was taking the hot doublestack train out of a downtown Chicago intermodal yard (Canal Street?). From extensive experience, the Engineer quickly realized that the Dispatcher in Omaha had him signed out westbound on the WRONG track. Only one of the multiple main tracks had been properly lowered in order to accept the much taller doublestack container trains, and the Engineer knew that he would be proceed westbound on the WRONG track. He toned up the Dispatcher, identified what train he was, and tried to explain to the Dispatcher about which track & signal indications he SHOULD be getting for his westbound movement.
The Dispatcher god mad, and told him to "TAKE THE SIGNAL INDICATIONS. AND DEPART!". The Engineer did just as he was told. Not that many miles further west, at track speed, the train went under the low overpass, and quickly destroyed all the top containers on the first 10 to 15 cars of the hot-shot doublestacker! Quite a few very interesting photos were posted on the internet of that event, and maybe even one railfan magazine.
Was that the same stack train that sat a few days until someone figured out how to get it out of where it was? I distinctly remember news reports of a stack train stuck on the westside for a few days as it was routed wrong.
Casey Jones2 posted:Was that the same stack train that sat a few days until someone figured out how to get it out of where it was? I distinctly remember news reports of a stack train stuck on the westside for a few days as it was routed wrong.
Yes.
Back in the SP days, DS's had to qualify on the route he/she ran. The DS had to ride the cab of a train every so often. In this person's case, a ride on 1 and 2, the SUNSET LTD, counted!
Wyhog posted:...I even co-authored a book about train dispatching with a BN dispatcher.
Al, I just purchased a copy of your book. Ought to be good reading.
Number 90 posted:RICKC posted:I don't know about that P51. I don't think the crew threw the switch to get on the wrong track but the crew should know what track they should be on to go wherever they are going. Especially, if the track goes in different directions ie. they start off going east and then take a diverging track to go north. The crew should know when they should start to go north. The video said they were going the wrong way for 10 minutes. They should have called the dispatcher right away.
True, but there are a lot of controlled switches and a lot of signals in the Northeast Corridor being negotiated by Amtrak Engineers who were car attendants two years ago. It's not ever again going to be like the days when a Pennsy Engineer with silver hair and 30 years of experience, running a GG1 powered express, had intimate knowledge of the territory in darkness, daylight, or bad weather.
I miss that old Pennsy Engineer with his steely gaze and supreme competence, especially some days more than others as demonstrated by this silly error. Delmonico's has become Denny's in the cab of many passenger trains, and it's going to stay that way.
Amen to that Tom. A friend's late Father was in engine service for the PRR who operated GG1's. I can remember him, with his heavy Philly accent saying "twenty yeas on the extra board" before he could hold a regular assignment.
And I think the Philly derailment certainly proves your point, though this is probably not the forum to discuss the root cause for that.
Ace said: "Similar principle if you drive a car. Someone else might be at fault and make a bad move in traffic, but do you want to have a collision with them if it is in your power to avoid it -- just so you can blame them?"
I agree with you 110%!! I have been riding motorcycles for 50+ years.. if I was always right and followed that logic, I'd have been dead years ago............
