Amtrak Train Takes a Wrong Turn(out?)

I don't understand how it could have went "several miles" before hte conductor and/or engineer stopped the train. I would think they would know their territory better and realize when they were off Amtrak property.

Paul

According to the story on CBSnews.com: "An Amtrak spokesman tells The Philadelphia Inquirer the train's crew is being held out of work until they undergo additional training."  Makes you wonder how well the other crews are trained.

Pete

Sounds pretty normal for SEPTA, they're lost regularly.  I guess it infected Amtrak.

I could see it happening at night, but I would think familiarity with the route would probably have flagged things sooner. I'm wondering why/how that turnout got thrown.

Let's hope that they at least were observing the track signals as they ran!

"...The train actually traveled several miles before the mistake was finally caught and the train stopped at the Bala Cynwyd station..."

Say WHAT? The engineer didn't notice that the switch was lined the wrong way...before he even got to it? How do you go "...several miles..." before you realize you are not on the route you are supposed to be on?

I'm sorry, but this is an engineer that either was not paying attention or is totally incompetent.

Having traveled that area MANY times on Metroliners in the 1980's and 1990's, I can assure you the trains aren't going 79 MPH between 30th St Station and Bala Cynwyd.  Tracks leaving 30th St Station at that point parallel the Schuylkill River and the Amtrak line would cross the river prior to Bala Cynwyd over a huge viaduct.  Septa tracks at that point head toward Bala Cynwyd and Overbrook.  So as you indicated, a switch was probably set incorrectly and the train missed its intended line over the viaduct.  Speed at that point would be nothing noteworthy -- often just keeping pace with road traffic (which is seldom making good time on the Schuylkill Expressway).

But the situation does raise a good question... namely "What is the correct procedure when switches route a train incorrectly at a point where the train can't simply be routed back "on track" without stopping and reversing direction?".  That's a VERY heavily traveled corridor even off rush-hour.  

Think about it this way... How many times have you driven behind somebody who wants to stop on a highway because they missed an exit?    The safest thing for them to do is continue to the next exit so as not to foul up traffic behind them. 

Rich makes a good point though... especially since the train was not likely moving too fast at that point.  The engineer should have seen the switch not aligned correctly.  However, calling the train "lost" is more of a media report using a bit of creative license.  Fortunately, no collision/injury resulted from the mishap.

David

A more precise explanation of what happened was described in the eleventh post of this thread at Amtrak Unlimited.

Also linked in the above are photos of the errant train at Bala Cynwyd.

Edit: And while we're at it, here's another crew that committed a real stinker of a rule violation in CSX territory, reporting themselves clear of a single track block under 'Form D' control when in fact they were stopped in that block.

---PCJ

What RailRide referenced

My understanding is that the train came in from Harrisburg to PHL and was set up to have the cab car lead from PHL to NYP.  The trouble developed when the cab car would not communicate with the AEM7 pushing.  With that issue, the cab car could not lead.  The train would have to be reversed to have the AEM7 lead.  Now, they could have run the AEM7 around the train at PHL, but it was decided instead to wye the train using the Zoo interlocking (about 2 miles north) and the old Pittsburgh Subway - a fly-under at Zoo that allows trains coming from the Harrisburg and the west to directly head toward New York without going to 30th Street. 

In order to do that, the train was backed out of 30th Street with someone (conductor?) in the cab car communicating with the someone (engineer?) in the AEM7.  The train was moved to Zoo and then west toward Harrisburg on the track that connects to the SEPTA Cynwyd line. The SEPTA Cynwyd Line leaves Amtrak about a mile west of Zoo.  The intent was to move it just far enough west to clear the switch leading to the Pittsburgh Subway (well short of the SEPTA line junction), stop, reverse, and then move forward through the Subway to New York with the AEM7 leading in normal operation.

This is where things get weird.  Instead of stopping where they were supposed to stop to make the move to the Subway and New York, they just kept on going. They went down the track, up the viaduct, off Amtrak and onto SEPTA-controlled track, past two stations and finally came to a stop at the third and last station just a car length or so from the end-of-line bumper. They took the train about 2.5 miles too far, two miles of which were on someone else's railroad.

A quote from that thread:

"... Instead of stopping where they were supposed to stop to make the move to the Subway and New York, they just kept on going. They went down the track, up the viaduct, off Amtrak and onto SEPTA-controlled track, past two stations and finally came to a stop at the third and last station just a car length or so from the end-of-line bumper. They took the train about 2.5 miles too far, two miles of which were on someone else's railroad..."

They were turning the train on a wye and the engineer didn't stop when he was clear of the switch? That makes it even worse! 

After reading the account of what happened, all I can say is UNBELIEVABLE! What the heck were they thinking???

Maybe Amtrak and Septa need Lionel's TMCC.

Al

Heh, heh, heh. What goes 'round comes 'round, eh, Wyhog?

I would have done the same thing.

Wrong turn, eh?

This foul up had nothing to do with speta other than Amtrak failed to stop once clearing the switch. This was Amtrak Train.

Had to laugh, all while I was reading this thread I was thinking of the enlarged

747 that was landed at the wrong airport this week. They must have needed a hotshot pilot, too, it was said the runway of the airport they landed was not long

enough for the 747 to make takeoff, 6000 feet as compared to the 9000 needed.

But today they did it, even removing enough fuel to just safely takeoff and make it to the correct airport, a few miles away.

E

quote:

 Instead of stopping where they were supposed to stop to make the move to the Subway and New York, they just kept on going. They went down the track, up the viaduct, off Amtrak and onto SEPTA-controlled track, past two stations and finally came to a stop at the third and last station just a car length or so from the end-of-line bumper. They took the train about 2.5 miles too far, two miles of which were on someone else's railroad.

Hey, how did they get there? Signal Indication.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Then, when all of the facts get in, the rest of you can start throwing!

Now, a PTC question.  Could PTC be programmed in such a way that the system would stop a train that train is not authorized to be there, even if the signal indications say "clear"?

It happens for airplanes too.

Just last week there was a report on Comcast.net about a Boeing 737 cargo plane that landed at a wrong airport. Where they landed is not approved for big jets but the pilot never realized his error until on the ground. They were investigating and think by manually turning the plane with tug carts they can get it lined up and Boeing said "it should" be able to take off without trouble. Glad I don't live at the end of the runway for sure!

Dave

I hope there will be some pently for the crew that made the mistake. Utherwise  its just another example of the way things are going in theis country.

Just the kind of ignorant thinking we don't need when you don't know all of the facts!

quote:

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Then, when all of the facts get in, the rest of you can start throwing!

Big Jim if people are not accountable for their actions this type of issue will occur again. You may call it casting a stone, I am calling for justice. If they are at fault then a peantly is due. If not at fault then no penelaty is due. Ignorance is in the eyes of the beholder Mr. Big Jim.!!

I have no problem with justice. I do have a problem with an online lynch mob, which is exactly what your post suggests.

I think you are way off base with your "lynch mob " comment. My comment calls for accountibility which we seem to see less and less of these days.

I'm not so sure that Big Jim is too far off base, however it certainly will be interesting to find out just WHY, the Operator and Conductor, went so far past the proposed stopping point (needed to move the power switch and receive a back-up signal indication), with over 100 passengers on the train. 

If they, the crew are found of incompetence and guilty of not followering rules then both the engineer and conductor should be fired. 

I have taken the septa trains on that line very often and the accident that could have happened is mind boggling. 

I too would like to know what happened. Just like the incident in Canada. However, NO ONE here has any knowledge of why things went the way they did, therefore, to just blab out "I hope there will be some pently (sic) for the crew that made the mistake" is nothing more than blind prejudice!

In the course of events it is found that mistakes were made (whoever it may be), I am sure there will be discipline.

There is also the possibility that (like so many things posted on the internet) this has been blown all out of proportion.

Now Mr David1,

Have you ever been "Fired" for a mistake you made, no matter how small?

If I were in incompetent I would have expected it. As a manager I fired many people in my career but it was never at a whim. It always depended what rules were broke.

If you read my post I said if they were found  incompetent or guilty of not following the rules then yes they should be fired And anybody else involved in the mess.

As a manager or owner you have to have accountability. The rules are there for a reason.  It is amazing how many people try to skirt the rules or go around them. Everybody who worked for me knew the rules, break them, your gone. No if ands or buts.    

FOAM!!!!

Steve Kulm, Amtrak’s Media Relations Director released a statement which read in part: “An investigation was launched and the crew has been held out of work until they can be fully debriefed and additional training can be conducted.”

With the publicty this has gotton surely the crew will be out of service for at least the minimun FRA requirement. With the severity of the issue they will be given a drug screening (fully debreifed)and their service record will be taken into consideration as to just how much time they receive (additional training), possibly even dismissal. 

Well, I would think the SEPTA DS should have known what was on SEPTA's line.  If the line is CTC,,,,,,,,

The Amtrak Unlimited thread I linked to earlier is still yielding additional information, which you can read here: (Post #66).

In a nutshell, crew followed signals and ran out of their qualified territory. Next signal was at the end of the branch.

---PCJ

So, was this an Amtrak crew that was totally unfamiliar with that "wyeing" maneuver?? 

BOY OH BOY!!! That's a real lynch mob over there!

Internet discussion forums don't require the Local Chairman to be present at an investigation...

I'll have to sign for 15 demerits for not carefully reading the original post.  I took down my post.

To the Forum, please accept my apology.  I attempt to be factual and precise, and this post did not meet that standard.

It would certainly technically possible to add that to PTC, but why, since PTC is for crash avoidance and the granting of movement authority belongs in the realm of train dispatching software.  A Train Dispatcher lines up a train in a specified

direction, from one point to another point.  Most dispatching software permits the Dispatcher to pre-program moment in the opposite direction after the train clears a certain control point (such as a junction).  From the point at which the Dispatcher wanted the train to reverse direction and enter a different route, the next point at which the Dispatcher can limit the movement could be several miles further.