ANDY EDLEMAN ON MTH S GAUGE

That's not a good sign.

Abandon scale, abandon scale! Women and children first! 

Take a look at all the other stuff MTH is cancelling.  It's three lonely pieces of track (that they don't have any tooling for) in a sea of Tinplate, O, Euro O, G and Marklin compatible HO.

I would worry if MTH cancels the F3's or tells the NASG to look elsewhere for next year's convention cars...

Rusty

Good Lord Rich. Could you read any further into what I wrote???

So MTH cancelling the first newly tooled pieces of S scale product is a good sign? I think it is an important point because they are literally waiting to see how the S community will react. If they don't buy what MTH puts in the catalog, there won't be any new product. MTH usually only cancels products if there aren't enough pre-orders. I don't know if that is the case or not here, but still in my opinion seeing them cancel anything in S isn't a good sign.

I have to hand it to you though Rich. You are a real S scale glass is half full kind of guy.

Ever think the half curves are just back-burnered?

Now, I have nothing to confirm or deny what MTH's overall intentions are regarding half curves.  I just don't see them as an earth-shattering cancellation at this point in time.

MTH cancels, Lionel cancels.  It's the way of the world right now.

And like it or not, looking at the glass half full, or even quarter full sometimes, goes with the S scale territory.

Rusty

There is a fine line between Glass half full and burying one's head in the sand...

Perspective comes into play. Some in the scale for decades may have no choice to wait it out. Some are even happy to do that. For newer people it is much more difficult to get going. Track is arguably the most important product to people that want to get started in S. That was my personal frustration with Lionel. 3 years later and still no turnouts? You won't bring any new folks in if they can't build a layout to run your products.

It all depends on where you are along the S path.

I`ve heard that MTH received a lot of partially planned out Products from SHS that needed Tooling made, these may have been part of that..

I've NEVER buried my head in the sand regarding the status of S scale.

I've always made it CLEAR in my postings that S isn't an easy scale to be in. Although some times have been easier than others, it has ALWAYS taken a certain amount of determination to seek out products in S. 

Yes, track is important.  No denying it.  Lionel hasn't been Lightning McQueen on releasing S FasTrack, either...

Try standing at a train show for a day or to explaining to interested folks on how you just can't stroll into an LHS and buy this stuff.  It's not fun.

so, what should we do?  Stage sit-ins in Lionel and MTH's parking lots until they release track to your liking?

Back in 1985, if you wanted to HiRail or Flyer it, the only options were old Flyer track, Gar Graves and maybe K-Line.  For scale was Scenery Unlimited's Shinorhora track or Tomalco.  AM didn't have track until later and SHS also didn't have track right away either. 

I'm not particularly pleased myself with how slow things are coming out of either company, but I would rather try to take the position that things will eventually get better rather than go the gloom and doom route.

Rusty

I honestly wish you the best. I'm not trying to argue with you, but we look at it from two different perspectives.

I would like nothing more than to see S boom. I would rather model in S if all things were equal. But all things aren't even close to equal. I gave S a shot for 4 years. I tried, but I just became frustrated. That's just my personal experience of course. If S catches fire I would gladly jump back in. It is the perfect size after all. However, I will not be buying rehashes just to support MTH until they may or may not get around to building new products though.

As a friend of mine said recently- We are in a period in the hobby where importers are reluctant to invest in new tooling and are relying on reruns of existing tooling to boost profits. So where does that leave a scale like S where there is no large cache of tooling sitting on the shelf waiting to be made?

Not trying to be doom and gloom... From my perspective I'm just being realistic. If a person is going to enter a new scale they need to have some confidence that products will be made and companies are committed to the scale. Especially if that person is coming from a scale like O, HO, or N where new products are in abundance. Heck, even Z scale had a lot of products and layouts on display at the Nat'l train show.

I won't derail this thread anymore. I hope that this isn't a bad sign. I hope that it is just something that got put on the back burner. I hope I'm wrong.

MTH on it`s Facebook Page is saying that the 2015 S Gauge Catalog will be out the first part of 2015, likely January..

I've said before that in a perfect world O, HO, and N scale really needn't exist...because TT scale, 1/32 scale and S scale make a lot more sense size-wise For the vast majority of modelers.

Think about it....

Jeff C

I think MTH certainly wants to make a profit off it`s investment in SHS Tooling first, but a little new Tooling, like a Car or Engine, would certainly create a lot of excitement.. One new gadget coming with the first Engine is Remote Couplers, which have been lacking in S Gauge, using "Memory Metal Alloy Wire"..

If they want to make profit they have to release some product. Otherwise S scale will never build any momentum. 

There is a huge opportunity right now, and MTH is well positioned to take advantage by buying that exquisite SHS tooling. Most modelers (no matter what scale) are not aware of how nice those SHS F-units are, they hold up against anything else out there.

Jeff C

MTH` Andy Edleman at the I-HOBBY Show said in an interview that the S-Gauge Diesels are in Production right now..

Most modelers (no matter what scale) are not aware of how nice those SHS F-units are, they hold up against anything else out there.

I agree totally Jeff.  I don't see what the big deal is and why people are waiting for MTH's F units when there are so many new SHS F units on eBay and through other sources that are not even bringing what they cost when new. There has never been a better time to acquire SHS products than now from what I'm seeing. I seriously doubt MTH will make any significant improvements over the original SHS models. But, I guess we'll all have to wait until they arrive to prove this. 

butch

Well, three of the F3 roadnames weren't previously made by SHS: Santa Fe (F7's yes, F3's no) Jersey Central and Seaboard.

And face it, without locomotives in the MTH lineup, there's less to entice newbies to try S.  MTH is more of a household word than SHS, AM or SSA.  The only one who has MTH beat for brand recognition is Lionel.  

SHS probably wouldn't have become what it was without locomotives in their line-up.

SHS F3's fresh out of the box back in June of aught-one, shot with floppy disc camera:

The F3's are least 13 year old tooling, but there's little I can see where the MTH model will be superior to SHS F's detail-wise.  Most of the changes should be "under the hood" as it were, to accept MTH's DCS electronics.

I've got a set of Santa Fe's (you can never have too many warbonnets...) on order, so I'm eager to see how they'll compare.

Rusty

My set of SHS F's ran like a Swiss watch and the detail was really nice. 

I DID have a "minor" problem with the too-tall windshields.  That caused them to loose some of that elusive "F look". 

Going on memory: I "think" I recall that one of the reasons the windshields look too tall is because the rubber "beading" of the prototype was molded into the clear plastic.  Thus, I "think" I concluded that making a window mask and spraying the beading in an appropriate color would yield much better looking windshields. I sold mine months ago so I can't check my recollections as an actual SHS F model.

Well Andre, if the catalog is to be believed (and I don't really consider them as gospel) MTH will have the gaskets outlined:

The SHS F7for comparison:

And seeing the only other choice is the AM FP7...

Although the AM E8 is somewhat better, thanks to evolutions in tooling.

Having grown up with Lionel F3's, the Globe/Athearn F7's and Varney F3's, I really have nothing to complain about with the SHS units.

Rusty

Yup, all the above are fine looking engines.

Back in my rivet counting days I was an "F unit Freak".  I went to great lengths to modify the Athearn blue box F windows.  Had to live with the too-flat roof contour, though.

Of course, HO now has a virtual quagmire of F's to choose from. I still think the old HO Stewart/Kato F's can be made to look really nice, and run fantastic to boot.

However, I digress.

I do hope the MTH F's are excellent and give S scale a much needed boost. 

The Stewart engines are great bargains, and unlike the Athearn Genesis locos, the Stewart engines have exceptional drives.

In S scale, we are not that far removed in time from the bad old days when the warped Enhorning F shells were about the only game in town. I can also still recall ordering a brass E7 (Overland?) back in the early 1980's and being upset when the model arrived, as the proportions were completely wrong.

Jeff C

>> I can also still recall ordering a brass E7 (Overland?) back in the early 1980's and being upset when the model arrived, as the proportions were completely wrong.

One solution for the incorrect nose is to unsolder the brass nose and splice on an AM nose from the FP-7.  A large improvement to be sure. 

>>   I recall that one of the reasons the windshields look too tall is because the rubber "beading" of the prototype was molded into the clear plastic. 

When comparing the SHS ATSF F-unit to the MTH ATSF F-unit, one glaring difference is that SHS correctly used both silver paint and chrome plating in the proper locations.  It would appear, based on the catalog photo, MTH chose to save a buck by using silver paint only.

Just some thoughts....Ed L.

Actually that E7 was sold long ago, along with several other brass and plastic S engines, when my first flirtation with S scale ended. Right now my entire S scale inventory consists of 3 AM freight cars, a PRS freight car kit, one converted American Flyer gondola, a bundle of Tomalco flex track, and one Shinohara turnout.

Pretty close to starting from scratch

Jeff C

Ah-ha, I was waiting for that one to come up...

The first batch of Santa Fe F3's of the 16 class (16LABC-21LABC) weren't delivered in 1946 with stainless steel side panels.  These locomotives were delivered with no Mars light and the early 3-porthole carbody.

Even after successive shoppings the side panels were painted and were never retrofitted with stainless steel.

These locomotives also retained the so-called "long Warbonnet" that originally went around the middle porthole.

And yes, they also received the "chicken wire" panels (as modeled by SHS/MTH) during an early shopping in 1949...

Stainless steel began to appear on the 1948 deliveries of the 16 class, along with louvered side panels and "short" Warbonnet.

Rusty

WOW where are all the S Helpers service F units on the cheap?  I must be looking in the wrong place I don't see any F3-s selling on the bay cheap?

Someone asked Mike Wolf at the TCA Open House Museum Presentation when to expect the S Diesels and his response was April. He said the problem was shrinking the PCB down and mentioned the same problem for the O-Gauge 44-Tonner. But Andy Edleman a few weeks ago at the I-Hobby Show mentioned that the S Diesels were now into production.

I asked on Facebook about this and the response was that the F-3`s are going to be built in March with an April delivery. Also MTH was not able to include the Remote Coupler feature in these.

Hmmm.  I seem to remember from somewhere that the remote coupler was one of the things holding up the F's.  Probably would require too much modification the SHS chassis. 

Wasn't anything I personally was particularly interested in anyway being I'll be running them in a scale environment w/Kadees on DCC or conventional.

Maybe when they design an S loco from the ground up for folks who would like this feature.

Oh, well.  At least the delays have enabled me to squirrel away the cash to buy them.

Rusty

Andy stated in the S-Gaugian that the shorter Shank length of the Operating Coupler in S was a Design problem to be able to operate reliable pulling long consists. Also MTH now uses 'Muscle Wire' in their Remote Operating Couplers, which takes a lot of Engineering. 

Lionel has been outfitting premium (AF Legacy) locomotives with CC electrocouplers since (and including) the Big Boy. One problem may be that once so equipped, the F's unit-to-unit spacing will be comparatively large. Technically, though, it should not be that difficult to accomplish.

Bob

I would hope not to have to sacrifice the correct back-to-back distance on scale F-units.  Guess we'll see when they arrive.

Rusty

With the MTH Operating Couplers, like the HO F-7`s I have, you can remove them easily to add Kadee Couplers whether they be Scale or Lionel and American Flyer oversized Couplers. MTH Couplers now all use 'Muscle Wire' whether they are Scale or the Oversized Traditional ones. I believe the S Couplers MTH is working on are Traditional sized.

MTH Couplers now all use 'Muscle Wire' whether they are Scale or the Oversized Traditional ones. I believe the S Couplers MTH is working on are Traditional sized.

I was hoping they could scale them down for S, expecting they would revolutionize operating couplers in O.  

I'll be watching to see what happens in S.  Good luck. 

The MTH Dealer Newsletter for the 15th of December is showing that the S-Gauge ORE Cars are going to begin shipping.

I guess Mike Wolf was right on target when he said the F units would not be ready until April 2015. I was just looking at the web sight shipping schedule and all the F are moved to April 2015 for delivery. I also assume the catalog for 2015 will be after the F are delivered.

Donald Payer