Another NS derailment

"Don't nobody know how to play this game?"    Casey Stengel to Norfolk Southern Railway

I have many friends in the rail industry, good, solid, hard working people with work ethics.... and I also recently hired 3 ex #SX electricians who came to my plant due to a toxic work environment at #SX. All of them stated that they are worried about more bad accidents... insanely long trains and less boots on the ground.

Railroad workers were raising concerns about safety during the recent rail strike threat as they have been for years.  As always government (no matter who is in office) sides with management.

In 2018 Norfolk Southern helped kill a federal safety rule aimed at upgrading the rail industry’s Civil War-era braking systems.

Norfolk Southern paid executives millions and spent billions on stock buybacks — all while the company fired thousands of employees despite warnings that understaffing is intensifying safety risks. Norfolk Southern officials also beat back a shareholder initiative that could have required company executives to “assess, review, and mitigate risks of hazardous material transportation.”

John

This derailment was a particularly bad one, and so far has been a total disaster for NS public relations. Not only have the results of the derailment itself been a headache, but worse yet the way NS has handled it from the perspective of impacting the public. You'd think by now these Class 1 railroads would have solid procedures in place to be able to efficiently handle and mitigate hazardous waste accidents and their negative effects on public relations (including methods for quickly handling impacts on residential areas).

@breezinup posted:

This derailment was a particularly bad one, and so far has been a total disaster for NS public relations. Not only have the results of the derailment itself been a headache, but worse yet the way NS has handled it from the perspective of impacting the public. You'd think by now these Class 1 railroads would have solid procedures in place to be able to efficiently handle and mitigate hazardous waste accidents and their negative effects on public relations (including methods for quickly handling impacts on residential areas).

It always boils down to money.

Steve

Get Real    Civil war braking systems were manual with a brakeman for every ten cars walking along the running boards and setting the brakes when called for by whistle signals.  

Electronic brakes on every car would probably require a battery on every car and other electronic/electrical gadgets that will fail under dirty grimy conditions.    what happens when a battery splits and spills nasty stuff in a derailment - will that be OK because it is a new electrical gadget

The thread on the other bad derailment in Ohio got shut down since in veered off into all this.

Don't think an electronic braking system would have had the slightest beneficial affect in E Palestine wreck.  And can one imagine what the cost for re-fitting some 2,000,000 freight cars with a tricky new braking system might be?  The money would be far better spent hiring back the seasoned railroaders who were laid off.

@EscapeRocks is on to something here.

With the utmost of respect for our right to speak, in order to avoid having another important thread with useful information for us hobbyists in it deleted, ask yourself a simple question before posting.  Consider these alternatives:

• Amtrak vs. The politics of Amtrak
• Science vs. The politics of Science
• Climate vs. The politics of Climate
• Agriculture vs. The politics of Agriculture
• Infrastructure vs. The politics of Infrastructure
• Railroading vs. The politics of Railroading

In each case which would our moderators prefer we discuss, and stick to, lest they bring out their ax and swing it once more?

There are plenty of debate-oriented sites to take our political comments to.  They would love to have them.

A wise old railroader once said "Engage brain before putting mouth in gear".

Thanks in advance for your patience and good judgment.

Mike

I fail to see any politics in the foregoing discussion. I don't consider railroad safety politics. Disparaging remarks about individuals should be avoided, of course.

@prrjim posted:

Get Real    Civil war braking systems were manual with a brakeman for every ten cars walking along the running boards and setting the brakes when called for by whistle signals. 

Electronic brakes on every car would probably require a battery on every car and other electronic/electrical gadgets that will fail under dirty grimy conditions.    what happens when a battery splits and spills nasty stuff in a derailment - will that be OK because it is a new electrical gadget

George Westinghouse patent: April 13, 1869. I wonder how long after that RR’s implanted them?  Batteries: could use the newer technology, not lead acid types. But then there’s the support electronics to maintain battery charge, etc. Could use the caboose style system. It always boils down to money.

Steve

the brake system today is nothing like what Westinghouse started out with. it has been modernized and updated hundreds of times since then. it is very complex and works very well. it holds up to the nasty all weather and dirty conditions it is used in and each car and loco is subject to frequent inspections as well as being tested each time a train is built. I don't think that you can find many instances in recent history of a derailment being caused by a brake system failure. I am a retired railroader and agree that there are not enough railroaders out there that have years of experience and a lack of training for the new railroaders coming into the industry in an effort to boost there numbers due to FRA pressure to up there game. electronic braking still uses air on the cylinders but makes use of transducers to take the electronic signal back to air to move the cylinder it does nothing to improve safety.

@RideTheRails posted:

George Westinghouse patent: April 13, 1869. I wonder how long after that RR’s implanted them?  Batteries: could use the newer technology, not lead acid types. But then there’s the support electronics to maintain battery charge, etc. Could use the caboose style system. It always boils down to money.

Steve

The railroads resisted using the air brake and the janney coupler, they claimed it would cost too much, their stockholders would never allow it. It wasn't until 1890 and an act of congress that both became mandatory on US railroads. The kicker? The railroads *surprise surprise* found out that with air brakes they could run faster and longer trains, they didn't lose employees to injury or death, and more importantly, their indemnity for customer cargo being destroyed by accidents went way, way down.

@Rick Rubino posted:

the brake system today is nothing like what Westinghouse started out with. it has been modernized and updated hundreds of times since then. it is very complex and works very well. it holds up to the nasty all weather and dirty conditions it is used in and each car and loco is subject to frequent inspections as well as being tested each time a train is built. I don't think that you can find many instances in recent history of a derailment being caused by a brake system failure. I am a retired railroader and agree that there are not enough railroaders out there that have years of experience and a lack of training for the new railroaders coming into the industry in an effort to boost there numbers due to FRA pressure to up there game. electronic braking still uses air on the cylinders but makes use of transducers to take the electronic signal back to air to move the cylinder it does nothing to improve safety.

That actually raises a good question. The one thing that if I understand the electronic brake system they are talking about, it is actuates the brakes that are there. The one thing such a system has at last in theory is speed, there is a significant delay when you put the brakes on a train for it to move through the train. An electronic signal travels at the speed of light, so all the cars would get the signal pretty much instantaneously, which should at least in theory cut down the time it takes to brake.

I have  question, from what i read it sounds like the electronic braking they are talking about is designed to be used in emergency only, IE it immediately locks up all the brakes. Is that true, or is it designed as an alternate to using air pressure drop through the air hoses to actuate the cylinders?

I don't know if it would have helped in this case or not. There is still a lot up in the air, but I think the idea is that once the train crew realized they had a hotbox/fire, it would allow stopping it faster and maybe would have avoided the derailment. If what I read was true, the crew had it in emergency braking mode once they realized they had a problem.

To me the real questions (to which I have no answers) is why if videos are true and the axle in question seemed to be on fire for a long time, why it wasn't known, why trackside detectors didn't pick it up  for so long? Or could trains have sensors on the wheels that report hot boxes to the train crew? It sounds to me based on the little that has come out about this train that the current detection method has huge holes in it.

One thing I can guarantee you, the head of NS is in for some rough times, the facts of this one aren't just going to come from NTSB, it is going to come out with a lot of very big lawsuits. The decision to blow up the train, supposedly ordered by the CEO of NS if the reports I read can be believed, alone is going to bring a ton of negligence suits. I don't know what others have read but apparently the Hazmat teams were not in on the decision to blow it up and are saying that they never would have recommended that.

And yet another........

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...concerns/ar-AA17IVog

A demonstration of a malfunctioning hotbox detector:

Of particular interest is some info in the pinned comment chain at the top of the video.

Short version, unusual increases in bearing temperature might not be reported to the train crew (i.e. first being evaluated by a third party) as soon as the detectors notice them.

---PCJ

thank you so much for that look into an actual situation, for those of us that dream of being apart of a railroad.

@RailRide posted:

A demonstration of a malfunctioning hotbox detector:

Of particular interest is some info in the pinned comment chain at the top of the video.

Short version, unusual increases in bearing temperature might not be reported to the train crew (i.e. first being evaluated by a third party) as soon as the detectors notice them.

---PCJ

A double edged sword. By having a third person involved, this allows the train crew to stay focused on the operation of the train. By having a third person involved, bureaucracy creeps in; everyone is relying on someone else and the weakest link is exposed.

Steve