Any market for "simple", conventional locomotives??

I had a garage sale yesterday where I sold a portion of my train collection.  The conventional locomotives were the best sellers.  Of course, the prices were much lower than what I paid.  Williams by Bachmann has the corner on this market.   Many of my friends prefer conventional.  Most are TCA members and those with layouts have mostly conventional control.  

NH Joe

You Really Don't need the DCS/TMCC if one has a Z4000 and the Remote! Controlling Two trains on One transformer is enough

There are plenty of people who prefer conventional control and A.C. / D.C. motors. Those folks look for trains on the secondary market.
I don't think we are going to see any of the big companies offering any newly made product of this ilk.

Mike Wyatt posted:

Is there still a market for a high-quality, conventional-only, locomotive line??  

As far as Lionel and Mth are concerned, apparently not.

Mth hasn't offered a conventional-only locomotive in decades and their most basic locos get the same electronics package as the scale stuff.

A number of years ago Lionel offered the "Conventional Classics" line.

Most of those ended up being blown out because of lack of interest.

William/Bachmann is where you go for a conventional only line.

Times change. No more cord on the phone, (at this point a home phone is even becoming obsolete) no dials on the TV etc.

I enjoy my "high tech "  o scale remote control trains that run and sound like the real thing.

If they didn't ,I would likely be an H.O. scale modeler.

Many years ago ,I remember being blown away the first time I saw and heard an H.O. steamer with dcc &sounds as a kid.

But... the price!!  Many o-gaugers are relegated to the second-hand market due to price alone, aren't they??

And were the "Conventional Classics"  good engines??  Or unreliable??

I operate both my layouts conventionally with MTH Z-4000 transformers. One layout is just single-track and the other has three independent loops. Although all my locomotives are modern (I include MTH PS-1 in that category) with most having some form of command-control, I prefer to avoid the expense, complication and electronics issues associated with command control on layouts where I consider it to be unnecessary. I just like to turn on the transformers, advance the throttles and run the trains. For me, the sounds and features in that mode are more than adequate. Although I have been a computer user/programmer for 55 years, I don't want to spend my time programming engines and doing software updates. Therefore, I would consider buying new locomotives with just sounds and speed control. They can be upgraded eventually if my preferences change. But, I'm certain that the manufacturers don't think the way I do because people my age are not their target customer now or in the future. On the other hand, I am enthusiastic about battery-powered operation and would pay for that.

MELGAR

While I run mostly conventional, I bought a Legacy Lite system so I could try out digital with the new Lionmaster Challenger I had bought.  I was impressed and liked it enough to try out Lion Chief Plus and the remote only trackside crane.  So much of what I have is conventional (including a fair amount of Williams by Williams) that I will be a mostly conventional guy in this lifetime.  The grand kids, however, are another story entirely.  They run electronic circles around grandpa and like trains a lot.

Mike Wyatt posted:

Though many of us still RUN conventional control, we have to pay for the technology anyway, or run old equipment.  Many have not, and may never, upgrade to Legacy or DCC systems, and happily run using a transformer.

Is there still a market for a high-quality, conventional-only, locomotive line??  If the price was, say $250 instead of $ 400- $1100+ would enough of YOU buy it??

Mike, you are right on the mark with this.  I enjoy hearing the excellent sound and watching the trains and layout controlled with digital controls, but:

1. This site is absolutely full of people looking for advice on how to fix their broken digital whatever.  At what point does the hassle of these sophisticated systems take away all the fun of building a layout and running trains.  I am a collector/operator not an electronics repairman.  Don't get me wrong, if you like DCC/DCS and are prepared to repair these items yourself then go for it.

2. Where does it say that more is better? (except in the case of more trains, more trains is always better).  The new trains are becoming more and more sophisticated to draw in new blood and keep the old blood interested.  I find that I can buy about three times as many older trains than I can with new trains.  I know manufacturers are in business to sell trains and I thank them for it, but I now buy only new trains that I truly love and skip over all the new trains that I just like.  I will buy a postwar or modern item even if I just kind of like it as the price is not near so much an issue and I worry much less about smoked electronics on used equipment.

I know the manufacturers read these threads and I hope they will develop products without all the electronics for us digitally challenged.

Chris Sheldon 

There are tons of !960 to 2000 made Lionel conventional locomotives new and used available at model railroad swap meets. 

Andrew

My take on it is that the major importers believed that the market is for Command Control and abandoned conventional operation.  Many including myself run purely conventional but it may be that this market is already too saturated to gain many new sales  You still have Bachmann Williams manufacturing conventional product but the big loss may be in accessories.  IMO many operators would much prefer  accessories and animations using a simple two wire hookup with an on-off switch. Remote operation of accessories buys you nothing as you are still running the two power wires regardless of if the switch is in your hand or on the table.

Even though I've switched to command control, I agree there's still a need and place for new conventional control locomotives (not just re-hashed RS-3s and F3s). I've said a number of times in the past, I don't know why the manufacturers don't offer different levels of options.  Same as buying a car. Some folks are happy with the base model, some want a few options and some want them fully loaded.  K-line had started to that before their demise. I remember when the SD75 (and others) were offered in the Collector's Club, you could purchase either conventional, conventional with sound or TMCC with sounds.

MELGAR posted:

.... I prefer to avoid the expense, complication and electronics issues associated with command control on layouts where I consider them to be unnecessary. I just like to turn on the transformers, advance the throttles and run the trains. For me, the sounds and features in that mode are more than adequate.

For a loop runner, conventional control is the way to go.  I belong to a modular club that has gone to great effort to make our layouts DCS, Legacy, and WiFi capable when all we do is loop running.  I mostly just take my conventional engines to shows now, a lot simpler to set up and run.  Lionel's LC+ works well in this environment too.

Since most of the folks I know in O gauge are loop runners, you would think there would be a market for simple, conventional control engines.  However, it does not work out that way. These same loop runners also want all the bells and whistles in scale proportioned and detailed engines.

Then there are people like me.  While I run conventional at shows, the home layout I'm building is operations oriented with a functional yard and several industries and will have DCS and Legacy command control.  Basically my control panel is in my hand.  My last layout was TMCC controlled and I enjoyed following along with the train to do switching maneuvers all controlled from my Cab1.

The manufacturer's answer is to put out one electronic system that does both.  Maintaining one electronic system keeps cost down through simpler design and less parts inventory.  Also, with boards so cheap now a days I think the actual production cost different between a full up command control board and one that just does sound and speed control would be minimal.  

I’m a late comer to the hobby.  I don’t do ho or z cuz I don’t like the track.  I like 3 rail cuz there’s toys that go along...Crane, Log loaders, action.  I started out conventional.  I got the polar express and decided I like sound too.  Recently I’ve gotten rid of all my conventional engines and bought lc+.  I like the constant speed, sound, and couplers.  However, out of the 4 I have, I wouldn’t say I’m impressed with the quality.  On one engine, have to replace coupler.  Another won’t smoke. I don’t think electronics will last Generations like the old ones.  My layout has 2 levels and grades.  If these lc’s go belly up, I’ll go back to a level layout and go conventional again. 

I'm always in that market.

Maybe it's the Luddite in me or the sabre rattling in the Whitehouse, but nothing other than conventional analog & mechanical trains for me.

Mike Wyatt posted:

But... the price!!  Many o-gaugers are relegated to the second-hand market due to price alone, aren't they??

And were the "Conventional Classics"  good engines??  Or unreliable??

Yes. If I buy command control I will goto ebay usually for my engines. Only because ebay guarantee your item as described. The prices of new are way out of my reach. I can not see paying $500 + for a engine I can get in about a year or so for about 2/3 the price or less. I have gotten brand new never run that way.  

P.S. I own more conventional than Command now days, there was a time it was reverse.

At the time Bachmann took over the Williams product line, I remember having a discussion at a trade show in Chicago with a Bachmann representative.  This was long before PS3.0 and Legacy, LionChief, et al.  I remember pleading with the B representative to NOT...repeat, NOT...succumb to loading up their motive power with Brand M or Brand L electronics....or even coming up with some Brand B for the O3R market trying to span and embrace the chasms between the first two. 

Bachmann is no slouch when it comes to innovation.  Their 180-year history speaks for itself.  They've participated in the command/sound market well in HO and N scales, adhering to and competing within the NMRA industry standards governing this 2-rail system.   They have a solid grasp of the HO starter set market....both for conventional as well as digital controls.  So, if they thought it in their best interests to venture into the O3R command quagmire, I'm sure they would give it a good shot.

I'm VERY pleased that they HAVEN'T succumbed to date.

Yet, I never miss a chance to needle them good naturedly (at York, principally) about taking the lead on battery power technology for the O scale segment (which by its very nature would become O2R)....or, for that matter, in the more commonplace G scale segment.  However, it isn't because they couldn't, apparently.  It's because, they say, of the corporate risks associated with employing modern battery technology in this hobby segment....read, for example: Proper charging of LiPo batts.  Battery power is still that hulking giant of opportunity in the O scale shadows, IMHO....discussed, supported, and also savaged in this forum and others.  Just as CFL's were a flash-in-the-pan technology on the way to the environmentally safer and less costly LED technology in the light bulb market, perhaps the next advance in commercial batteries will resolve the LiPo risks.

In the meantime, I continue to applaud WBB for sticking to conventional O3R motive power.  Yep, they own this segment.

MHO, of course.

KD

Seems to me Lionel Legacy and associated PowerMaster expanded the market for conventional locomotives.  My 18005 Hudson J1e with a heavyweight consist and 18009 Mohawk L-3 with a milk car  consist are running now while all the TMCC locomotives (don't have any Legacy) are nestled in their boxes or parked on sidings.   

What, me worry?  

I have no interest in Legacy, Dcc, or bluetooth.  Give me the convetional stuff again. 

I personally don’t have an interest in conventional only locomotives but I wonder what is different about the HO market? I read MR and in the product reviews almost always HO locomotives are offered in a conventional only version and also in a DCC/Sound version. Is it just that there are that many more enthusiasts in HO that allow the manufacturers to do this?

What I lament is the apparently inevitable association of conventional with traditional and command with scale.

What I want is scale-sized, moderately detailed steam locos with conventional control.  I have TMCC but only because it is necessary to run TMCC and Legacy locos.  Sure, you can get fitful operation out of them with transformers, but the result is, in my experience, neither smooth nor reliable.  I would rather not have TMCC or Legacy locos, but, if I want scale steam, it seems I must have CC. 

An O scale ES44AC or and SD70ACe diesel-electric locomotive which has only a simple reversing-unit is a contradiction. The real recently built  locomotives from General Electric and Electro-Motive Diesel have more electronics in them than previous models. 

Andrew

They also have flushable tiolets.   I hope you scale/realism  guys aren't  considering that.....

Which specific locomotive models and railroad schemes do you have to get as a conventional model?  

If conventional was were the money is the manufacturers would be there. It isn't period.

I would suggest a title correction......"simple", conventional, dependable.......

The new green Lionel Lines passenger set just released is purely conventional. I believe it is the only one in the 2018 catalog that is. Nice runner, btw!

Fortunately, rolling stock (for the most part) is agnostic on the command-conventional divide and works just fine with either. 

Since I run conventional only, I am mostly going with LC+ to avoid paying too much for what I won’t use. 

TexasSP posted:

If conventional was were the money is the manufacturers would be there. It isn't period.

They do it too make more money and be able to charge more due to expensive electronics, leaving conventional operators behind or forced to buy new expensive stuff they don't want or need.  Does anyone really believe there's a big market for the new Niagara?  

All conventional all the time.

Works for me.

TexasSP posted:

If conventional was were the money is the manufacturers would be there. It isn't period.

A big reason there isn't money in making conventionally controlled trains is that any newly made stuff has to compete with the secondary market. All those trains made from around 1946 and on.

Don't get me wrong the new stuff is beautiful to watch run on YouTube and at shows. However, l will not buy the new stuff for two reasons the cost is expensive l would rather buy some prewar or postwar which l know with a little oil the equipment will run and it's built to last even some of the mpc era locomotives are good. Will the new stuff run in 50 years or more perhaps with some new upgrades. My second reason is most of the new stuff requires larger radius curves and with space limitations l could not run the new stuff comfortably. I do own the conventional Polar Express and Hogwarts Express sets along with a few other newer locomotives but non with command control. I prefer conversational sure it doesn't have all the bells and whistles but it puts a smile on my face after a long night at work to watch a locomotive run around even for a little while

Train Nut posted:

... leaving conventional operators ... forced to buy new expensive stuff they don't want or need.

I'm familiar with forced perspective in model railroading but not forced purchases. Where is this happening? Has Lionel enlisted the Mafia to boost sales?

Thanks, all.

Bill

hobby-go-lucky posted:

Train Nut posted:

... leaving conventional operators ... forced to buy new expensive stuff they don't want or need.

I'm familiar with forced perspective in model railroading but not forced purchases. Where is this happening? Has Lionel enlisted the Mafia to boost sales?

Ok.  Forgot that like in current politics, on this forum you have to be very specific because it will be taken out of context even though everyone knows exactly what was meant.....   Should have said " if they want brand new, current items, they are forced to buy the current overpriced fancy electronics items they dont want or need,  or do without"....

"1. This site is absolutely full of people looking for advice on how to fix their broken digital whatever."  

And you won't hear from the ones - most of us - whose "digital whatevers" are doing just fine, thank you - even after years of operation - or even sitting for long periods. Williams locos contain computers, too - digital boards and such - that are completely electronic reversing units - and now with sound boards. It is not much more expensive to put in the complete setup (per MTH) rather than set up different production runs, different marketing, different repair procedures. You would not see any real savings without these features.

"Learning" a command system is not hard, especially TMCC or Legacy Lite. Even DCS is plug-n-play in most situations. Many guys get into very involved setups, enjoying all the myriad ways these systems can do so much, especially with layout control. I don't do this or worry with this using TMCC. Many - most? - of us use them for the basic functions - stop, go, uncouple, whistle, precise independent motive power control. I run my locos, not my track. Enter a loco's number and it listens to everything you say.

I never liked standing at a transformer; the F-N-R business also just got on my nerves. TMCC probably kept me in 3RO - maybe a little dabbling into command would be enjoyable for you. Try a Lionel Lion Chief or a MTH PS2/3 with the $60 Remote Commander for a taste. 

If you can operate a cell phone - talk about el Bizarro world - you can push a few CAB-1 buttons.

My preference is conventional.  It would be interesting to see what the age groups are with respect to running conventional or one of the modern systems.  I would venture a guess that guys and girls my age, 70, are the ones buying and running conventional, vs. the modern electronic systems being purchased by younger operators.  I know that cannot be a hard and fast determination because I am sure there are plenty from each group that swing the other way.  Still, I would like to see a poll taken.    

The Lionel "Conventional Classics have been mentioned.  I own two, a Western Maryland NW-2 and a Pennsy Train master.  They run smoothly and without any issues.   

TexasSP posted:

If conventional was were the money is the manufacturers would be there. It isn't period.

Bachmann manages to do both.

   More correct would be BIGGGER profits can be had, if it is forced upon the consumer.

   While developing the proprietary systems is costly, the actual boards are a cash cow once developed. I've known this since tmcc intro. The gurus finding all the ultra cheap stuff lately should have clued you by now too.

  The option of devolping an open source command system was ignored. (complicated,by the k-line fiasco or we may have seen tmcc more open)

DCC (small gauge command) ignored by Lionel. MTH (dcs) is so similar it can do both (bravo), and Bachmann really just needs to have good reason to up the power capability to use their small gauge dcc. If the O crowd into command showed enough interest, it would be done imo. It's just the others all ready have the O command folks in their own pockets. The conventional board is cheaper, the conv. niche larger than the dcc niche too.

Sounds and command pose a possible instant attraction. Especially for a newcomer. We (conventional folks) have come to realise it is neat, but not what makes us happy. We would rather have two conventionals than one command loco, plain and simple. 

  I only bash on battery because I know it isn't truely as cost effective (yet). And, there is only so much lithium on earth (most around Afganistan mountains if I'm not mistaken ), it's better used in other applications. I see it as a waste, less efficiency, pita (personal), not to mention carbon footprint, etc.

But if you choose battery, and I can help, I will. I can't help that I feel its a poor choice with no huge benefit until maybe you are outdoors with 1000ft of track.

As a please all, your boards should be an option on most buys, like they were.

If k-line had managed themselves better, not had an idiot plagiarize, etc., I'm sure simple conventional would still be an option with everyone (board conventional, not electromechanical, and just maybe not MTH, but one more option anyhow)

The loss of cheaper conventional pricing did drop me from the new market. I'm just not willing to pay double for options I don't care for. I dont with anything else in my life, why should I. 

  Mentioned in another thread, remotes just get lost IMExp. I've had to cable them to coffee tables to ensure I could work a tv. That is some crap I can do without. (no I don't lose them...others do, walking around with them )

So I'll only buy used. Even if I go to command, it will be used vs put a penny in a pocket that I feel ignores a segment of the consumer base that got it rolling.

I'm just guessing, but I'd venture that the electronics in most modern locomotives add no more than $100 to the MSRP.  Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if a mechanical E-unit and open frame AC motor costs more to make these days than a can motor and LionChief electronics.  Most of the expense in the current high end diesels (and steam no doubt) may well be the more complicated tooling for scale models, the increased costs of labor, tooling and transportation in Asia, etc.  These speculations are supported by the fact that Williams locomotives are almost as,  or even more expensive than LC+ and RailKing locos these days,  despite being equipped with relatively simple and less expensive electronic E-units and sound.  If conventional were indeed cheaper to manufacture by some substantial margin, it would be getting done.  So it probably isn't.  Lionel is making LionChief locos rather than conventional locos in all its sets because LC and Bluetooth are less expensive to manufacture, ship, etc., not as a nefarious plot to undermine conventional.  This keeps costs down, rather than increases them, as thought by many.

If you want something relatively simple. conventional and less expensive, LC+ has been that choice for many folks.  The RailKing fans say the same thing about that MTH product. Both work just fine in conventional.   The days of $150 to 200  locos are gone for three rail, and it isn't because of the electronics is my hypothesis.  It's just that much more costly to produce locomotives than it was 20-30 years ago.

Dan Padova posted:

My preference is conventional.  It would be interesting to see what the age groups are with respect to running conventional or one of the modern systems.  I would venture a guess that guys and girls my age, 70, are the ones buying and running conventional, vs. the modern electronic systems being purchased by younger operators.  I know that cannot be a hard and fast determination because I am sure there are plenty from each group that swing the other way.  Still, I would like to see a poll taken.   

Dan, I will start the poll, I am 57 and run only in conventional.  I also run a G outdoor layout with track power (ss rail) but with G Scale Graphics Railboss 4 RC control because I find it to be the simplest wireless control available that lets me walk around.  It's really no fun being chained to a control panel with 300ft of track outdoors.  Key word, simple and reliable too.  I don't need to be on the cutting edge anymore but I am considering an upgrade to Windows 98 soon.

Chris Sheldon