Any market for "simple", conventional locomotives??

Train Nut posted:

hobby-go-lucky posted:

Train Nut posted:

... leaving conventional operators ... forced to buy new expensive stuff they don't want or need.

I'm familiar with forced perspective in model railroading but not forced purchases. Where is this happening? Has Lionel enlisted the Mafia to boost sales?

Ok.  Forgot that like in current politics, on this forum you have to be very specific because it will be taken out of context even though everyone knows exactly what was meant.....   Should have said " if they want brand new, current items, they are forced to buy the current overpriced fancy electronics items they dont want or need,  or do without"....

 

Train Nut's post is very accurate in the sense that some people do end up paying more than they need to for the features they require. I work at a train store. More than 95% of our customers are conventional operators. There are very few people who use Legacy or DCS systems.  However, we do get a lot of  people who purchase expensive Legacy engines, and run them on an old ZW. They are not forced to buy a new Legacy engine. They make that choice, because they like how it looks, sounds and runs, even in conventional mode.

If you are a conventional runner who finds Legacy and Premier engines beyond your budget, then buy Lionchief+ , Railking or Williams.  

But, if you want to whine about how the inclusion of a $50 Lionchief+ PCB  has made the hobby too expensive, I don't have much sympathy.  Maybe it's time to read a few books, and learn how to fix the junk you can easily buy at garage sales and on Ebay. And if that's too much, you're probably in the wrong hobby.

Nasty attitude.

I kinda stopped buying new MTH locos when they stopped making the RK without command control (loco sound). To this day I still run conventional.....and always will.  Now I buy used older or dead PS locos.

People keep boasting and posting on other websites how great the economy is booming, then I come here or check the Lionel Facebook page and half the comments are how Lionel locomotives have become too expensive. 

Andrew

falconservice posted:

People keep boasting and posting on other websites how great the economy is booming, then I come here or check the Lionel Facebook page and half the comments are how Lionel locomotives have become too expensive.

they leave out the part about who's economy is booming.  it isn't consumers, it's corporations.

I don't care how good, or bad, the media reports the economy is.....toy trains in the $1500-2500 range is beyond what I will pay. I'd have to have a income in the $500K level before I'd be comfortable paying that for toys. 

What I would suggest is to buy conventional locomotives from small hobby shops, since they have large coldxtns of them if there on a smaller scale with a smaller budget. Most big manufacturers don't have a line to make them since only big molders,are buying from them, but sometimes you can check out smaller manufacturers and they'll have stuff there.

I enjoy  RUNNING  my Williams ,  Loco Sound Railking, and conventional Lionel much more than I enjoy looking at my dead, useless Railing PS1 steamers collecting dust on a shelf.    I spent $1200 (for 3 of them).    That is a lot of  money for  me  to  spend  for ZERO enjoyment.    In my experience, simpler is better.  John A

Mike Wyatt posted:

But... the price!!  Many o-gaugers are relegated to the second-hand market due to price alone, aren't they??

And were the "Conventional Classics"  good engines??  Or unreliable??

The conventional classic 

engines are great and reliable .  

I have 40% conventional  and 60% digital and enjoy both and run all of them all the time mixing it up. I have no problems with either, they run , they breakdown, they display the same.  I find the digital equipment more alluring than the conventional and as much fun to run if not more so.  It's all I buy for years now. I don't want someone's old used equipment. 

If and when I do buy older stuff, it must be new and from a dealer. Recently bought a Santa Fe blue F3 AA from Gryzbroski out of their pallet purchases , probably over 20 years old, brand new , mint in box, took it apart and oiled and lubricated it up over 2 days before running it. It's a fantastic old school engine, but I  know it needs kid gloves when first running. This is the only conventional I have bought in years.

John A posted:

I enjoy  RUNNING  my Williams ,  Loco Sound Railking, and conventional Lionel much more than I enjoy looking at my dead, useless Railing PS1 steamers collecting dust on a shelf.    I spent $1200 (for 3 of them).    That is a lot of  money for  me  to  spend  for ZERO enjoyment.    In my experience, simpler is better.  John A

I guess I'm lucky to have been one of the very early adopters of BRCs.   Put them into my Railking PS1 steamers and F3s immediately after acquiring them over a decade ago and ever since then have had problem free running.   I was tempted but did skip the MTH upgrade to PS2 and 3 because I didn't want to lose the PS1 passenger and freight yard sounds.  The range of compressor and valve blowoff sounds that my 90s era Railking Hudson produces when it is in neutral still equal and sometimes surpass most of the ones I've heard from later and much more expensive MTH and Lionel equipment. 

FireOne posted:

Mike Wyatt posted:

Though many of us still RUN conventional control, we have to pay for the technology anyway, or run old equipment.  Many have not, and may never, upgrade to Legacy or DCC systems, and happily run using a transformer.

Is there still a market for a high-quality, conventional-only, locomotive line??  If the price was, say $250 instead of $ 400- $1100+ would enough of YOU buy it??

Mike, you are right on the mark with this.  I enjoy hearing the excellent sound and watching the trains and layout controlled with digital controls, but:

1. This site is absolutely full of people looking for advice on how to fix their broken digital whatever.  At what point does the hassle of these sophisticated systems take away all the fun of building a layout and running trains.  I am a collector/operator not an electronics repairman.  Don't get me wrong, if you like DCC/DCS and are prepared to repair these items yourself then go for it.

2. Where does it say that more is better? (except in the case of more trains, more trains is always better).  The new trains are becoming more and more sophisticated to draw in new blood and keep the old blood interested.  I find that I can buy about three times as many older trains than I can with new trains.  I know manufacturers are in business to sell trains and I thank them for it, but I now buy only new trains that I truly love and skip over all the new trains that I just like.  I will buy a postwar or modern item even if I just kind of like it as the price is not near so much an issue and I worry much less about smoked electronics on used equipment.

I know the manufacturers read these threads and I hope they will develop products without all the electronics for us digitally challenged.

Chris Sheldon 

Must agree here. I hold a bachelors degree in electronic engineering and have embraced the digital computer, smart phone world but not smart trains. When it comes to trains it has to be decided are you one who somehow loves creating a complex switching operation or a hobbyist that turns the throttle lets the trains run the loops to create a feel of railroading in the past?  My layout was designed to represent  railroading in the 1950's is my artistic work and operation is basic. While accessories, animations are added everything is kept simple, conventional, easy to fix and near 100% reliable. We enjoy a comfortable lifestyle but  all purchases must be based on value vs price. In other words they must make sense.  On only on one occasion (1990 scale Hudsons) did I spend more than $200 on any engine. The NOS, new and used conventional market is flooded with good buys so throwing away money on expensive purchases just doesn't make sense to me.

Mike Wyatt posted:

But... the price!!  Many o-gaugers are relegated to the second-hand market due to price alone, aren't they??

And were the "Conventional Classics"  good engines??  Or unreliable??

I don’t have all of the Conventional Classics but I do own many of them (sets and individual locos). Totally reliable and pretty much bullet proof. The only issue I recall with one of the CCs that I have is the Orbiter Set. Some problems were reported here with gear mesh issues for the powered Alco A unit. Mine ran fine out of the box.

I am 99% conventional with my 2 main lines controlled by an MTH Z4000; and with 10 sidings, many acessories and 17  022 switches controlled by 2 ZWs.

I use the Z4000 like it was a ZW with a bell button. I know it has many interesting additional features, but I rarely use them. 

Keeping the train operations simple is more relaxing for me, and more conducive to simultaneously listening to music, which is a passion of mine, as is simultaneously using my smart phone to take videos for this Forum.

The reason I said I'm 99%, and not 100%, conventional, is I recently bought a Lion Chief Plus engine with a very simple and easy to use remote unit that I love. 

All the LC+ engine requires is turning the transformer up to 18 volts, turn on the remote, and control the speed and direction (forward or reverse) with the dial. And you get prototypical slow speed, great smoke, good whistle  or horn  and sounds, uncoupling from the remote and announcements from the remote. All of this is very simple to use. 

I've only had the LC+ for 2 weeks, but so far I think it is a breakthrough. Most importantly, they cost in $325 to $450 range, which is a lot less than many other new engines on the market.

One more thing about the LC+ engine. It has a switch so you can run it in either transformer mode or remote mode. So, if the remote doesn't work for you, then you can throw that switch and run your trains the old fashioned way.

Arnold

FireOne posted:

Dan Padova posted:

My preference is conventional.  It would be interesting to see what the age groups are with respect to running conventional or one of the modern systems.  I would venture a guess that guys and girls my age, 70, are the ones buying and running conventional, vs. the modern electronic systems being purchased by younger operators.  I know that cannot be a hard and fast determination because I am sure there are plenty from each group that swing the other way.  Still, I would like to see a poll taken.   

Dan, I will start the poll, I am 57 and run only in conventional.  I also run a G outdoor layout with track power (ss rail) but with G Scale Graphics Railboss 4 RC control because I find it to be the simplest wireless control available that lets me walk around.  It's really no fun being chained to a control panel with 300ft of track outdoors.  Key word, simple and reliable too.  I don't need to be on the cutting edge anymore but I am considering an upgrade to Windows 98 soon.

Chris Sheldon

Chris, I discovered G Scale Graphics about 9 years ago.  I started with the large model airplane/car transmitter, which I don't see on Del's site now.  After a couple of years I graduated to the Railboss 4.  I love the system.  Also Del's tech support is second to none.  There was one summer, maybe 2011, that Murphy just would not leave me alone.  Numerous emails to Del, with answers to each and every one, got me going again.

I think what I am going to do is start the pole in a new thread.  

I am a conventional guy all the way.  I just got into N Scale and chose to go strictly DC.  I like the simplicity of the throttle and the whistle (horn) and bell buttons.  But, to address the O.P.'s question, the used market is still there.  Just check eBay and other online auctions. It's surprising how much good stuff from post war era sells for.  They are still desirable and probably will remain so.  And, they will probably still be running after all the new electronics have reached their expiration dates.  

There's new engines that I would've liked to own, but I don't need something that I can't run unless I go into some fancy computer system. I don't expect any return to simple operations, and in fact I expect even WBB to jump on the band wagon eventually as well. 

Dan Padova posted

Dan, I will start the poll, I am 57 and run only in conventional.  I also run a G outdoor layout with track power (ss rail) but with G Scale Graphics Railboss 4 RC control because I find it to be the simplest wireless control available that lets me walk around.  It's really no fun being chained to a control panel with 300ft of track outdoors.  Key word, simple and reliable too.  I don't need to be on the cutting edge anymore but I am considering an upgrade to Windows 98 soon.

Chris Sheldon

Chris, I discovered G Scale Graphics about 9 years ago.  I started with the large model airplane/car transmitter, which I don't see on Del's site now.  After a couple of years I graduated to the Railboss 4.  I love the system.  Also Del's tech support is second to none.  There was one summer, maybe 2011, that Murphy just would not leave me alone.  Numerous emails to Del, with answers to each and every one, got me going again.

I think what I am going to do is start the pole in a new thread.  

Dan, I agree with you on Del's support, I smoked one of my Railboss 4 Track Power motor controls when my USA F3 was pulling a grade too slowly and I accidentally stalled the engine and smoked the board in the receiver (totally my fault).  I called Del and told him I needed to order a new one and he said why?, send me your burnt one and I will repair it.  To my surprise he repaired the unit good as new and charged me only for the return shipping.  I am a customer for life.  I told him I wanted to monitor my voltage and amperage draws but was having trouble finding zero center gauges so he designed a digital set of gauges with provisions for reverse polarity and included a complete parts list then he posted the project on his site and gave me credit for inspiring the project.  What a guy!

Chris Sheldon

My idea of Digital Control is my digits directly wrapped around the control handles of a ZW.     Sparking at the switches with a quick whiff of ozone.                                                                      Then I am six years old again.

Chris Sheldon

FireOne posted:

My idea of Digital Control is my digits directly wrapped around the control handles of a ZW.     Sparking at the switches with a quick whiff of ozone.                                                                      Then I am six years old again.

Chris Sheldon

My sentiments exactly.

Nice to have some smoke and sound...sometimes. Tmcc pretty much bullet proof when I want it. Proto1, 2, 3 available on a few engines. A big oval of track.

Yea...just the sound of a consist on track, some ozone, and a simple  manual transformer...thats all I need....and it's Christmas.

What a great bunch of people on this Forum, I would like to meet many of you.  I have an idea, let's meet to swap trains and talk bull around Pennsylvania, York maybe?  If it works, we could do it every year.

Chris Sheldon

FireOne posted:

What a great bunch of people on this Forum, I would like to meet many of you.  I have an idea, let's meet to swap trains and talk bull around Pennsylvania, York maybe?  If it works, we could do it every year.

Chris Sheldon

All it would take is a note and attending. Thousands do it. Twice a year

I just wish I was that able.

Adriatic, never been to York but it is a dream of mine.

Chris Sheldon

  "Empathy without sympathy is dangerous; sympathy without empathy is blind".   Lack of both is narcissistic at best.