Plain as day....the stripe is the biggest focal point on this engine. How they got it wrong is impressive.
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Do not preorder!
The Portland Rose posted:Do not preorder!
And then nothing gets made. I say pre-order and then if it's wrong return it or push to get it corrected. The problem with not pre-ordering is then it will just get cancelled and never see the light of day. Every manufacturer that produces hi end engines uses the BTO model whether they call it that or not.
This never would have happened in the Maddox days. Hope they paint my J3 Hudson right. Probably show up purple the way they’re going lately.
Anyone who has the 2005 611 TMCC J should know that it was the best one they ever made. They put the scale class lights on it and never used them again. Must have thrown them out with the paint sample cards.
BTW, recitation of the account regarding the 611 whistle.
(the book) Norfolk & Western Passenger Service 1946-1971 by William E. Warden
In reference to the last run of the Pocahontas on May 1, 1971 on page 13:
"Best of all, instead of the 759's somewhat shrill whistle, the engine had been outfitted with the mellow steamboat whistle of J-class 4-8-4 No. 611, then residing in the Roanoke Transportation Museum".
BTW, from what I can tell, Lionel did do a great job with the sound file on this latest engine. And the whistle steam is very nice.
Having just returned from York, and the pleasure of riding #611 last Friday afternoon with my wife opened up some opportunity. Having always telling her, "this is my last engine I have been looking for", I received full blown encouragement to purchase a Spirit of Roanoke.
Back at home, and all lathered up, which one? The Lionel Legacy or the Pre-Order MTH version. I know the MTH is not here yet to see if there are paint issues, but having just gone through the ALCO readdress issues with 2 sets (one not back yet after re-return), Challenger sound issue & the Polar Express blue color issue, I need a breather. I will Pre-Order the MTH. Not worth the hassle since the other hassles are still very fresh.
I am not done with Lionel. I just think they need a break from me while they get there color communication straightened out. I hope they do, because I am very fond of their products and sometimes the other does not have the model and road number. I know it is a blip. But for how long, I don't know.
Long live all of our favorite manufacturers!
MichRR714 posted:I'm just curious... Has Lionel explained to anyone why they can't seem to get the colors right? The mistakes just keep happening... A mistake on a piece here and there would be one thing and understandable.
I personally don't understand why they can't get a handle on this. Howard needs to buy a couple Pantone books.
Charlie,
I normally don't weigh-in on things like this, but I'll put on my professional (HA!) cap for a moment and offer an opinion.
It dawned on me what had likely occurred a year or so at a local hobby shop, which had a nice wall of current Lionel product. Quite frankly, very few things looked right in my "mind's eye," something I've developed over time and bringing 1000+ products to market. I believe that the reason Lionel's entire product line has color-shifted over the past several years is not because they need Pantone books -- but rather because they're using them. The problem is that the vast majority of "railroad colors" don't have Pantone (PMS) equivalents. You can likely find something close with many lighter hues, but the darker, richer and/or dirtier colors won't have anything in the ballpark.
Back in the day (early 2000's), Lionel had their offshore manufacturing partners match the appropriate colors from chips generated from the paint used domestically. No Pantone. It was a big chore, but also a necessary one -- the paint had to match current and pre-existing product, regardless of where it was manufactured. Period.
Regardless, I believe that sometime over the past handful of years, a decision was made to switch from Lionel's decades-old paint codes and swatches, and convert to PMS. I can understand why. Pantone is recognized everywhere, and by simply calling out PMS 877c on a deco print, everyone worldwide is quickly on the same page. Conversely, "8366 Tuscan" -- Lionel's old color for that N&W stripe -- doesn't mean anything unless the proper chip is provided to match. (And ever wonder why all Lionel's steam locos had bright silver boiler fronts all of a sudden? My guess is because there's only one "metallic gray" -- 877c Silver -- in the standard Pantone book.)
So the color problems that keep occurring aren't about individual products -- they're a systemic issue that won't change until the Pantone books are closed, and the company makes an effort to stress product integrity over efficiency by diving into the company's old color library.
Of course, the above is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
TRW
What about 603, AFT 611, or 746?
Todd,
I'm not sure I agree with you completely on PMS. Pantone is a color standard for ink not paint. Of course they would have to match the PMS color or an in-between blend with paint. Why would they settle on something that they know is the wrong color when mixing the paint match?
That line of thinking just doesn't make any sense to me.
Wow, I just noticed that the wheel flanges are way oversized compared to the real thing. That’s it for me. I’m done.
Still waiting on seeing the AFT version
Maxrailroad posted:Anyone get the Freedom Train version? I might bite the bullet on it depending on how it looks. Thanks!
Say WHAT? Does anyone have a photo of that?
I know they mulled over maybe getting 611 for the Freedom train for a short while...
p51 posted:Maxrailroad posted:Anyone get the Freedom Train version? I might bite the bullet on it depending on how it looks. Thanks!
Say WHAT? Does anyone have a photo of that?
I know they mulled over maybe getting 611 for the Freedom train for a short while...
From the Lionel 2019V1 catalog - it was one of the 6 choices offered. This is a “what if” scheme but like you said, 611 was realistically considered for the role and there is drawings and documents from Ross Rowland showing the paint scheme for 611, albeit his shows it without the bullet nose more like the J1 warbaby.
http://www.lionel.com/products...acy-j-class-1931380/
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I called Lionel customer service today.
No change in status.
They said they are "in discussion" as to the stripe color on the new J.
I asked if they did offer a fix, will they work directly with customers, for those that had already received theirs.
They said yes.
Jeff2035 posted:I called Lionel customer service today.
No change in status.
They said they are "in discussion" as to the stripe color on the new J.
I asked if they did offer a fix, will they work directly with customers, for those that had already received theirs.
They said yes.
If Lionel did "fix the stripe color", to what color would they "fix it"?
Probably something like their 2005 J.
Customers could decide whether they like the color on the new Js or would like the color on earlier production.
Jeff2035 posted:Probably something like their 2005 J.
Customers could decide whether they like the color on the new Js or would like the color on earlier production.
Maybe it's just me but, I can not believe that the Lionel Service Dept. would even attempt to re-paint stripes on a high-end model like the N&W J. All these models are painted and pad-printed lettering in China, and the odds of the Lionel Service Dept. setting up spray booths and pad-printing equipment in North Carolina just doesn't seem logical, to me anyway.
Hot Water posted:Jeff2035 posted:Probably something like their 2005 J.
Customers could decide whether they like the color on the new Js or would like the color on earlier production.
Maybe it's just me but, I can not believe that the Lionel Service Dept. would even attempt to re-paint stripes on a high-end model like the N&W J. All these models are painted and pad-printed lettering in China, and the odds of the Lionel Service Dept. setting up spray booths and pad-printing equipment in North Carolina just doesn't seem logical, to me anyway.
Not just you. A lesson in marketing school coming up.
Hot Water posted:Jeff2035 posted:Probably something like their 2005 J.
Customers could decide whether they like the color on the new Js or would like the color on earlier production.
Maybe it's just me but, I can not believe that the Lionel Service Dept. would even attempt to re-paint stripes on a high-end model like the N&W J. All these models are painted and pad-printed lettering in China, and the odds of the Lionel Service Dept. setting up spray booths and pad-printing equipment in North Carolina just doesn't seem logical, to me anyway.
They would go back overseas. They would not paint them in NC 
.
MartyE posted:Hot Water posted:Jeff2035 posted:Probably something like their 2005 J.
Customers could decide whether they like the color on the new Js or would like the color on earlier production.
Maybe it's just me but, I can not believe that the Lionel Service Dept. would even attempt to re-paint stripes on a high-end model like the N&W J. All these models are painted and pad-printed lettering in China, and the odds of the Lionel Service Dept. setting up spray booths and pad-printing equipment in North Carolina just doesn't seem logical, to me anyway.
They would go back overseas. They would not paint them in NC
Ah, right. Back to the Chinese factory that painted it incorrectly in the first place?
Gilly@N&W posted:In 1971 NKP 759 pulled the last Pocahontas train out of Roanoke. I have a book that mentions that it was using the 611's whistle that was removed from the 611 while it was on display at Wasena. I have strong suspicions that the 759 may still be wearing the 611's original whistle.
Perhaps she was wearing 611's whistle, but she is not still wearing it today. First of all, the 759 continued running trips until 1973, and if you listen to recordings that have taken place anytime after that run, you will not hear anything that resembles a Hancock 3 Chime. This record does have some recordings of that run as well, but the overwhelming majority of the recordings feature the standard Nathan 6 Chime.
Second of all, take a look at this video by one of my good friends. If you look at the shot from the bridge of Baldwin no. 26 pulling the 759 on to the turntable (about a minute and a half in), you will see she still has a whistle attached, but visually speaking, it does not resemble a Hancock.
This is not meant to steer the topic away from the original subject. Only providing information. Hope this helps!
Does Lionel not check even a few before shipping them all over the country? Part of me thinks they are well aware of all these errors but send em out anyway and cross their fingers enough people will not complain.
Surefire posted:Does Lionel not check even a few before shipping them all over the country? Part of me thinks they are well aware of all these errors but send em out anyway and cross their fingers enough people will not complain.
IMHO most are happy to have a new engine on their layout. A small, but vocal, percentage will be upset about the shade of color. Isn't that how it always works??
Jeff T posted:Surefire posted:Does Lionel not check even a few before shipping them all over the country? Part of me thinks they are well aware of all these errors but send em out anyway and cross their fingers enough people will not complain.
IMHO most are happy to have a new engine on their layout. A small, but vocal, percentage will be upset about the shade of color. Isn't that how it always works??
What about the low numbered N&W J models, i.e. #600 with the incorrect crosshead guides? Is THAT how it works also?
Hot Water posted:Jeff T posted:Surefire posted:Does Lionel not check even a few before shipping them all over the country? Part of me thinks they are well aware of all these errors but send em out anyway and cross their fingers enough people will not complain.
IMHO most are happy to have a new engine on their layout. A small, but vocal, percentage will be upset about the shade of color. Isn't that how it always works??
What about the low numbered N&W J models, i.e. #600 with the incorrect crosshead guides? Is THAT how it works also?
Lionel doesn't have the tooling to do those crosshead guides.
Peter Araujo posted:Hot Water posted:Jeff T posted:Surefire posted:Does Lionel not check even a few before shipping them all over the country? Part of me thinks they are well aware of all these errors but send em out anyway and cross their fingers enough people will not complain.
IMHO most are happy to have a new engine on their layout. A small, but vocal, percentage will be upset about the shade of color. Isn't that how it always works??
What about the low numbered N&W J models, i.e. #600 with the incorrect crosshead guides? Is THAT how it works also?
Lionel doesn't have the tooling to do those crosshead guides.
Lionel did the correct crosshead guides on the UP FEF-3 4-8-4 models, and the SP GS-4 4-8-4 models, and the UP 4-6-6-4 models, and the UP 4-8-8-4 models, and the NYC Niagara 4-8-4 models, ALL of which have the Laird multiple bearing crosshead guides, which should be on the N&W low number J class models.
Somehow, I don't see the problem with getting high-end models correct.
This would cause Lionel to re-tool the locomotive which can be cost-prohibited.
Peter Araujo posted:This would cause Lionel to re-tool the locomotive which can be cost-prohibited.
BS, we're just talking about the back of the cylinders!
Big Jim posted:Peter Araujo posted:This would cause Lionel to re-tool the locomotive which can be cost-prohibited.
BS, we're just talking about the back of the cylinders!
Apparently he didn't read and comprehend what I posted, above, about all those other Lionel steam locomotive models with the Laird Multiple Bearing crosshead guides.
Mine's coming tomorrow from Charles Ro, along with the Vision Line Auxiliary Tender.
Just took mine out of the box, and found a loose screw in there. Overall condition is excellent. The top half of the nose cone is also loose. So I'm assuming that was where the screw came from. Not sure if I should exchange it or take it apart and find the source of that screw. I also didn't run it yet just in case I decide to send it back.
She runs great! I just gave mine a test run, and decided to keep it and find a way to put the screw back. I also have the UP Water Tender in the background.
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Peter Araujo posted:She runs great! I just gave mine a test run, and decided to keep it and find a way to put the screw back. I also have the UP Water Tender in the background.
The whistle smoke is great. May be the best so far.
I received #603 today. Here are some photos.
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PaperTRW posted:MichRR714 posted:I'm just curious... Has Lionel explained to anyone why they can't seem to get the colors right? The mistakes just keep happening... A mistake on a piece here and there would be one thing and understandable.
I personally don't understand why they can't get a handle on this. Howard needs to buy a couple Pantone books.
Charlie,
I normally don't weigh-in on things like this, but I'll put on my professional (HA!) cap for a moment and offer an opinion.
It dawned on me what had likely occurred a year or so at a local hobby shop, which had a nice wall of current Lionel product. Quite frankly, very few things looked right in my "mind's eye," something I've developed over time and bringing 1000+ products to market. I believe that the reason Lionel's entire product line has color-shifted over the past several years is not because they need Pantone books -- but rather because they're using them. The problem is that the vast majority of "railroad colors" don't have Pantone (PMS) equivalents. You can likely find something close with many lighter hues, but the darker, richer and/or dirtier colors won't have anything in the ballpark.
Back in the day (early 2000's), Lionel had their offshore manufacturing partners match the appropriate colors from chips generated from the paint used domestically. No Pantone. It was a big chore, but also a necessary one -- the paint had to match current and pre-existing product, regardless of where it was manufactured. Period.
Regardless, I believe that sometime over the past handful of years, a decision was made to switch from Lionel's decades-old paint codes and swatches, and convert to PMS. I can understand why. Pantone is recognized everywhere, and by simply calling out PMS 877c on a deco print, everyone worldwide is quickly on the same page. Conversely, "8366 Tuscan" -- Lionel's old color for that N&W stripe -- doesn't mean anything unless the proper chip is provided to match. (And ever wonder why all Lionel's steam locos had bright silver boiler fronts all of a sudden? My guess is because there's only one "metallic gray" -- 877c Silver -- in the standard Pantone book.)
So the color problems that keep occurring aren't about individual products -- they're a systemic issue that won't change until the Pantone books are closed, and the company makes an effort to stress product integrity over efficiency by diving into the company's old color library.
Of course, the above is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
TRW
MichRR714 posted:Todd,
I'm not sure I agree with you completely on PMS. Pantone is a color standard for ink not paint. Of course they would have to match the PMS color or an in-between blend with paint. Why would they settle on something that they know is the wrong color when mixing the paint match?
That line of thinking just doesn't make any sense to me.
Charlie,
Sorry for the delay in following-up. I didn't catch your response until now.
Check out this Lionel artwork that Charlienassau posted earlier this year for his Long Island C420's:
https://ogrforum.com/...u%20Hobbies%20Ex.pdf
https://ogrforum.com/...u%20Hobbies%20Ex.pdf
The color call-outs on those are basically Pantone across the board. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the orange and gray LI color scheme did NOT start out as PMS, so somewhere along the line, someone took the Lionel historical paint swatches and converted them to a "close enough" Pantone. As I noted in my first note, the problem is that historical "railroad" colors don't really have equivalents in the world of "clean, shiny and happy" PMS colors (I'm channeling a graphic designer that I once worked with).
Using Pantone in the business world for all sorts of color matching is nothing new. Some corporate Style Guides go as far to include an actual paint chip and then a separate PMS code for printing. If I remember right, UPS is one of those -- their PMS brown color is quite a bit different from the color used to paint their delivery vehicles (Package Cars in UPS parlance), but they properly understand the differences between paint (and the associated tints) with the printed page, a lot of which is CMYK.
As I write this, I'm more convinced than ever that all the color drifting and downright bad color selection over the past few years from Lionel is a result of them switching to an entirely Pantone-based color reference. The issue likely has nothing to do with poor execution on behalf of their offshore manufacturing partners.
TRW
If someone who has both the TMCC J and the 2019 version please post a side by side. My last 2 preordered locomotives were the SF PA ABA and the "Spirit of Roanoke" 611 J.
I’d also like to see a side by side comparison. I’d like to see a side by side of the 2019 J and the Lionel 18” aluminum passenger cars. I pre-ordered “ Spirit of Roanoke “ hoping to use it to pull my passenger cars.
Anyone have the Freedom Train and/or 746 ones yet?
