Any other Texas and Pacific fans out there?

Love to see some two tone blue EAGLE cars for rhe PRR.  Ran to/from the PENN TEXAS.

I am just reading a bit about the T&P today in a book about the MoPac passenger service in the streamlined era called Route of the Eagles by Greg Stout. 

This EMD print (image size approx. 11" x 21") of T&P E units is one of my favorites.

Tell me about Penn Texas!?

Hallmark also offered O scale brass T&P side door "Muley" cabooses, which once were available cheap, so l have one on 3 rail trucks .  Would guess but dunno that this caboose is availabe in HO.  Wonder where the term "Muley" came from?

Great print Carl.    Always loved that color scheme.   I rode Amtraks Texas Eagle in the later 1990's when it was on Mopac rails .  May have been UP bg then do not recall.  But my sleeping car had all blue and white colors inside, made me think of that paint scheme.

That was the roughest Amtrak ride I ever had.  Rough track at speed through the night south of St Louis. I had the last roomette on the last car of the train.  I watched out the rear window most of the night flying by freights as we rock and rolled southbound.  I didnt get any sleep and it was as rough as  being at sea where you really had to hold on to something always. But it was very exciting and unforgettable.  About a month later Amtrak rerouted the Texas Eagle temporarily due to track work.

I just have the signs off of the side of a LCL truck.  Picture taking in the Texas panhandle, I have moved to NW Arkansas and have the signs in my shop.

Big T&P fan here! Atlas did T&P GP7's in swamp holly back in 2010. I got all 3 numbers. Love those units. They did T&P SW-8's and I bought both and had them upgraded to TMCC back when that was available. I have been lobbying Atlas for some T&P GP9's in the blue /gray scheme similar to the photo above and F7's in both passenger and freight schemes. I have told Jerry many times I would order 6 or 8 units of T&P F7's if they would do it.

I have on order T&P E8's, Mopac E8's and a T&P 2-10-4 from 3rd rail. Look forward to those. Thinking about Mopac PA's and I am real interested in the Cotton Belt PA's - but the paint scheme is wrong. Waiting to see if they fix them before I order.

Thought about the T&P 2-8-2 from Lionel a few years ago. But the coal tender was wrong - should of been oil and I would of bought one.

We took the Eagle from Fort Worth to Chicago and back last Spring. My wife insisted we economize with a roomette instead of a bedroom; guess who got the top bunk? Was it rough?! I felt like a piece of shake 'n bake chicken after that ride. UP was in a cycle of track maintenance and we had UP freight crew "pilots" on board.

When you go through Marshall, Texas you can see T&P 400, ex- FW&D 2-8-0 acquired to operate in flood waters during the 1950's. It's been cosmetically restored.

The Lionel Mike is actually correct in one sense and wrong in another. The USRA actually sent those locomotives to T&P who objected as they had converted to oil already. The engines were then passed on to Rock Island. It's questionable if any ever ran in T&P service, according to Tom Stamey, who is a contributor to about every recent T&P book written. He is currently trying to advise Scott Mann to use authentic colors on the new 3rd Rail 2-10-4 versus copying spuriously painted display and museum photos.

 I would buy the E-8s but I think the 2-10-4 which is strut a true dream come true must take precedence. I too would love to see TP F units. I have the MTH "sun bleached" Geep and the Atlas SW.

Griff Murphey posted:

Tell me about Penn Texas!?

The PRR at one time had a run semi run through passenger train with the MP Lines at St. Louis called the SUNSHINE SPECIAL.  Ran NYP to Houston, San Antonio, ElPaso and other MP TX locations.  Of course the train branched off in Texas.

The SUNSHINE was outshone by the new flock of TEXAS EAGLES.  Again there was a semi through train of the same train to NYP.  However, not all cars which just ran on the PRR side were two tone blue.  Many were Tuscan Red.

Now add to this mix cars painted for the NYP-St. Louis- Texas cars of the TEXAS SPECIAL.  The TX SP was a SL-SF and Katy train.  I do not know why, but around 1948 the train name on the PRR was changed to the PENN TEXAS.  It carried passenger cars to/from the MP and TX SP connection in St. Louis.  Because of its connections, the PENN TEXAS looked like a circus.  Various liveries, almost like some very early Amtrak trains.  The train name lived under the mating worms of PC, but Amtrak dropped the name in 1971.  Ok, corrections to this post welcome.

I do run a 9500 O27 passenger car for T&P with 9500 PRR ones.

Griff,     My wife and I met on the Texas Eagle over Christmas holiday back in 2003, now have been married for ten years as of the 27th of December.  Thing is, we both rode it to Longview, then back from Houston/Longview a week later.  Only... she got on/off in St. Louis and I was on/off in Chicago.  We stayed in touch after riding back North on the Eagle from Texas, became engaged, and the rest is history.  I recall seeing T&P consists as they passed through Midland when I grew up there, from 1952 to 1967.  My mother drove me over to the T&P tracks South of town when I could hear the steam whistle of a 2-6-0, as I recall it.  This would have been 1961/62 and was a work train.  It was coal fired, the engineer let me up into the cab (and it was hot in there!), gave me a couple lumps of coal as a souvenir.  I do remember it being T&P on the tender because it said "Texas", wish I could have gotten a pic of it.  One of my grandest memories as a kid in Midland.  Have always had Lionel trains all my life, now too many and of all O Gauge manufacturers.  Some T&P, also MP in the MTH E6 passenger consist, but also the Lionel 4-8-2 with the incorrect tender.  Still need to correct that when I can get to it.

Dominic....  So it would be considered "correct" if one pulled a consist of Texas Special, MP "Eagle" and PRR "Congressional" mixed, and use TS/Katy PA-PB-PA as motive power?  This would simulate a train as run from St Louis to, say, El Paso............ or use the MP E6 motive power.   Interesting, and colorful.......

Jesse     TCA  12-68275

Great stuff, I remember in the mid 70's the grand Fort Worth T&P depot carried departure boards with the old railroad heralds for the Sunshine Special, the Texas Special, and other name trains. There are still a few T&P signs on bridges but at this point all have been overpainted in white. I am learning something new about my home town railroad. Penn-Texas - new to me. 

If one gets up to the ballroom of the Fort Worth petroleum club there is a great view of the north south rail axis through Ft. Worth. The ghostly circular images like multiple Stonehenges bear mute testimony to the multiple roundhouses that serviced locos back in the day for lines like Sahta Fe, FW&D, Rock Island, and so on.

An uncle owned a department store, Grammer-Murphey, in Midland. As a boy I would often ride the T&P with my mom headed west to shop at a duscount. I recall how snug the upper berth with its little blue night light and I can still hear the echo of the Doppler of the grade crossings that lulled me to sleep. 

Tom Stamey claims the closest available Lionel product to anything TP is that full scale Erie Pacific. He says it could be repainted as a perfect TP P-1 pacific, except for the **** TENDER.

Not necessarily a fan, but when American Modes came out with their S Scale T&P stuff, I just couldn't resist:

Rusty

texastrain posted:

Griff,     My wife and I met on the Texas Eagle over Christmas holiday back in 2003, now have been married for ten years as of the 27th of December.  Thing is, we both rode it to Longview, then back from Houston/Longview a week later.  Only... she got on/off in St. Louis and I was on/off in Chicago.  We stayed in touch after riding back North on the Eagle from Texas, became engaged, and the rest is history.  I recall seeing T&P consists as they passed through Midland when I grew up there, from 1952 to 1967.  My mother drove me over to the T&P tracks South of town when I could hear the steam whistle of a 2-6-0, as I recall it.  This would have been 1961/62 and was a work train.  It was coal fired, the engineer let me up into the cab (and it was hot in there!), gave me a couple lumps of coal as a souvenir.  I do remember it being T&P on the tender because it said "Texas", wish I could have gotten a pic of it.  One of my grandest memories as a kid in Midland.  Have always had Lionel trains all my life, now too many and of all O Gauge manufacturers.  Some T&P, also MP in the MTH E6 passenger consist, but also the Lionel 4-8-2 with the incorrect tender.  Still need to correct that when I can get to it.

Neat story... Sounds a bit like Silver Streak!

Rusty Traque posted:

Not necessarily a fan, but when American Modes came out with their S Scale T&P stuff, I just couldn't resist:

Rusty

Beautiful!!!

Probably not what you had in mind since most of the responses seem more motive power or scale rolling stock focused, but I'm a fan of operating cars, so I've got the operating hopper to go with the coal ramp. 

I seem to recall I hadn't pre-ordered one when it came out, and it took a while before I found one for sale individually (I remember one seller trying to pair it with a ramp, which I already had).

Lionel T&P Operating Hopper.

-Dave

I have that car but have never used the "operating" feature.

Not really a fan but a Lionel Texas & Pacific starter set is partly responsible for getting me back in the hobby. Think it was around 2000 and one of my kids heard me talking about having trains when I was younger. They got me a T&P Eagle Railsounds set for Christmas and it basically rekindled my interest in O gauge.

Still have it packed away. Basically a like-new set as I only ran it a few times.

colorado hirailer posted:

Hallmark also offered O scale brass T&P side door "Muley" cabooses, which once were available cheap, so l have one on 3 rail trucks .  Would guess but dunno that this caboose is availabe in HO.  Wonder where the term "Muley" came from?

I was told, a number of years ago, that a "Muley" is a cow without horns, hence the name was applied to a caboose with no end platforms.

Hmmmm..well, this Hallmark caboose has very short, rudimentary, platforms with handrails, on the ends. I'd think it was a hybrid, but maybe these fall under that definition?  I have seen the term applied to these Hallmark cabooses.  I assume Hallmark offered these in HO, too, as they only offered three "different" cabooses in O, that l am aware of, these and two ATSF drovers.  Hallmark offered two or three other side door brass cabooses in HO only, as far as l know 

I have been a fan of the T&P since the 1950s while growing up in Dallas. My father and Uncle who both worked at the T&P had frequent conversations about the goings on of the T&P. I have always known that my Grandfather also worked for the T&P, but recently I have discovered that he ascended to be the head of the accounting/auditing department for the entire railroad. This would explain why my father spoke of going frequently to the T&P club house and also taking frequent trips with his father who went all over the line on business. Recently, I have rediscovered model railroading again and I have managed to obtain a very extensive collection of 3 rail T&P items including the Texas Eagle, the LA Ltd as well as some K-Line passenger cars, and some freight cars and freight locomotives(Both steam and diesel). I also have transformed a Lion Chief Plus locomotive into a T&P steam locomotive. I also have created various T&P buildings with logos, routes, etc.

one of my 1st  MTH engines, i like it...

Beautiful pics! I do not have an O ga. Layout but am a "serious carpet operator at shoe level" over Christmas!

texastrain posted:

Dominic....  So it would be considered "correct" if one pulled a consist of Texas Special, MP "Eagle" and PRR "Congressional" mixed, and use TS/Katy PA-PB-PA as motive power?  This would simulate a train as run from St Louis to, say, El Paso............ or use the MP E6 motive power.   Interesting, and colorful.......

Jesse     TCA  12-68275

On the PRR side, PRR tuscan cars, MP two tone blue, and TX SP cars with PRR power EAST of St. Louis.

On the TX SP side SOUTH of St. Louis, Katy, Frisco, and PRR cars with Katy and/or Frisco power.

On the TX E side SOUTH of St. Louis, MP, T&P, and PRR cars, with MP power.  Sometimes there were two EAGLES.  One carried cars for Houston, San Antonio, Laredo, Corpus Christi and Brownsville.

The second covered DFW and El Paso.

Note cars crossed to other trains.  These were not run throughs like the PRR trains to Florida.

The best thing to do is internet research, and the historical societies of the PRR, MP, T&P, Katy and Frisco.

Car consists did change over the years.  That can change the look of your train.

Mid 1950 toward the Sixties, these trains had more and more REA head end business.  But I doubt Congo cars got onto the trains.

Remember, the TX SP went from a combined Frisco/Katy routing to a pure Katy routing, but I do not remember the year.  Then it went to KC.

Griff,

I am a big fan of the T&P. If the manufacturers make it, I buy it (except Lionel's coal fired 2-8-2). Hard to get T&P stuff. Here are a few pictures of 3rd rails E8 that I received about a month ago.

any way the roof (grey) color is wrong for as built, but they did re-paint them this way maybe 5 or 6 years later. I have the Atlas T&P GP7's in swamp holly and hope they will do the Blue / Grey scheme soon in GP9's. I have the Atlas GP 35's that are T&P numbers but they put the Mopac buzzsaw on the cab, but otherwise good. Also have all the Atlas freight cars that have been done in T&P.  Only passenger cars I have are the MTH set of Heavy weights done many years ago. I will have to do a complete interior mod for those. Ordered the T&P 2-10-4 from 3rd Rail in Russian Grey...look forward to it. Maybe Scott will do a set of Eagles for all the T&P and Mopac stuff I have ordered from him (hint, hint).  

I probably could have scraped up the money for the E-8s but I'd have preferred F units. T&P streamlined passenger cars were largely rebuilt standards and they were quite a menagerie. However as a rule I am ok with the cars being generic types just painted as TP. The Sunset/3D rail 600 class 2-10-4 is likely going to be the ONLY accurate (hopefully Scott will  get the colors right and not use the present colors of 610 as a reference) TP steamer built in O gauge in my lifetime. I cannot miss that! 

Just dreaming... A P-1 Pacific would be nice. The real workhorses of TP were the 4-6-0s... The D-9s, which pulled freights and passenger trains. There is the option of converting the Lionel Erie Pacific to TP if you could come up with a decent tender.

I satisfy my desires for a steam era TP passenger train with my generically marked PULLMAN OD green standards and my ATLAS TP express box up front and my ADOLPHUS  reefer or MEXENE chili powder reefer too. This is usually pulled by my LIonel "don't back me!" 2-8-2. The loco at least SAYS TEXAS & PACIFIC. I would like to see some T&P steam era cars. 

Tom Stamey says the TP steam era passenger cars were painted "chocolate" which he says was the color of a Hershey candy bar unwrapped. The white and blue stuff was all post WW-2. I had a T&P painter as a dental patient - first name of Virgil - he painted me a lovely TP diamond with plexiglass cover riveted on. I wish I had grilled him a little more.

I have the older but still nice HO Sunset 2-10-4, and the Hallmark 4-8-2, 2-8-2, P-1 4-6-2, and O-6-0, as well as the Gem 4-6-0. Only the Gem D-9 is painted and I think at times of disposing of them; at my age I am not sure I will ever get my HO back up and running right. It's an old layout and needs rewiring. The main has some radii that won't take the 2-10-4. Used to have two of those sold one. Ah hobbies....right now I run my Hallmark Katy Pacific back and forth a bit. And at times my PFM Frisco decapod.

Repainted Lionel 736.

Very imaginative paint scheme! President Lancaster would have liked that Berk for his personal loco!

I thought of doing my childhood one in a freight scheme, sort of a baby 2-10-4. But I cannot bring myself to repaint it. Maybe I will paint the tender as TP, because when I was a kid, I did paint over the LIONEL LINES and affixed SP decals which have mostly fallen off.

K-Line... MTH.... Atlas... Modern Lionel. Then there is that 736 Santa brought me in 1956.

It's really the best running engine I have.

Before the blue, gray, and silver of the modern T&P fleet, all the steam engines were said to be dressed in the standard color scheme called gray-green. Just what color is gray-green? You folks who have served with the T&P should be able to help me out with this. I am capable enough to paint my Lionel offerings to make this right. Help!!!

That's actually a good question. The official name was light Russian. For many years the HO brass painter guys just used Floquil or Scalecoat GN Gray Green. Well both of those lines of paint are now gone. Sometimes I hear people talking about a bluey gray color. There are a handful of color slides that show variations in the color probably caused by variations in mixture, weathering, and deterioration of the photographic material. It definitely was not a plain gray. My 4-6-0 shown earlier in the thread was painted with Floquil GN gray green. Smoke boxes were graphite color, Tuscan red cab roofs, and everything else was black. The only engines painted in blue, gray, and silver lettering scheme were the passenger locos, Pacifics and Mountains. Everything else was as previously described. 

The Texas and Pacific book by Collias is the best reference available.

T&P  2-10-4 coming from Sunset 3rd rail in November 2017

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#TP2104

West coast blues man Louis Jordan was a Texas & Pacific fan, too:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHzz5pp5YXI

So, before the blue, gray, and silver stream liners and passenger steamers, the steam engines were gray-green or Russian Iron, or ??? I have the Collias book and several others with lots of pictures. But all the early photos are black and white. They're no help. During the time of gray-green, were the tenders black? I had not noticed the tuscan rooftop on engines of T&P. What about the tender tops. Were they ever painted in tuscan?

Well we could wish those pictures were taken with an iPhone yesterday but they weren't. Yes the tenders were all black. No Tuscan tender decks but here I am relying on the conventional wisdom of the HO brass locomotive painters. B&W photos will tell you a lot about where to put the colors. I will ask Tom Stamey about the tender decks to verify.

Tom sent me photos of the Glacier Park HO 4-8-2 900 class which he says is the right color, he also sent a pic of a real 600 and a 900 mountain. I'm He said the Floquil gray green was very close but Scalecoat is (was?) too green. The actual 2-10-4 boiler seems to be about the color of my MTH Erie Triplex. I would attribute that to film degradation. Note that the 909 has a standard baggage or mail car behind it. The cab roof seems completely faded and oxidized by the Texas sun, reader running gear looks filthy, but the engine is clean. Notice the cylinders of both engines match the boiler jacket color, and stacks are the same graphite as the smokebox. 

Stamey has been stressing the importance of painting the new 2-10-4 by third rail like an in-service engine not like 610 at the Texas State Railroad, which is a museum scheme not the real deal.

No red TP tender decks.

photos courtesy of Tom Stamey

Thanks Griff. This helps a lot. History is an illusive teacher sometimes. Really seems odd that time and materials would be spent to color the engines and not carry the color scheme over to the tenders. I think I'll give the green a shot with my engines. It should really make them stand out as something special (compared to an all black inventory).

Vic the junkman

It's sad that there is so little documentation on the T and P. I have been active in doing scale model aircraft as well as trains for 64 years child and adult and it has been interesting the amount of research involved in documenting the colors involved in hard to research stuff like German and Japanese planes. The fact is the trains were an everyday thing and back then nobody cared much about the colors or the extensive rebuilding of the passenger car fleet that TP indulged in. T and P was a regional road dear to the hearts of Texans but just not much photographed... unfortunately.