Anybody ever burn up a Track wire?

Not yet.  But then I don't run 22awg phone wire for track power.

 

Pete

I ran one of Lionel's Vision Genset with the 3 smoke units on a test track using the supplied fastrack wire -  burned that baby up. As Texas Pete says, probably should use a wire gauge 14-16.

 

Jim

I had a roll of 18-gauge doorbell wire that I ran to each 3’ section of track and didn’t think I would have a problem because all the track was connected together so I thought.  The Realtrax has such bad connections, you never know if it connected or not and apparently mine wasn’t connected..

So what happened exactly, did it catch fire or trip the transformer.

 

I only used the phone wire because I had it handy and did not want to wast the door bell wire. I've had that roll for 25 years and its at the end of the reel.

JohnnyB,

 

It melted the insulation on the wire and started to smoke and stink before I turned it off.  Done a similar one working on wiring trailer lights from the truck...  Insulation was just oozing off like syrup.

Wow - it probably did burn up.  22 gauge wire is what? around .95 amp?  Something like that if its copper, I think.  So at 18 volts that is maybe almost 18 watts max.  Now, I do have locos that require a bit less than that - remote Thomas pulling oonly two cars takes 15, I think.  But most go for around 25 or more and some trains with multi Pulmor units and lighted cars go over 100 watts easily.  So yeah, you burned it up.  

 

I'd go with 14 gauge.  

The way I had the 18 gauge wired up to every 3’ the full current would not be through each wire but dived up through the track if the track was connected to each other.

I have a terminal block where all the wires connect to a #14 AWG to the transformer. The phone wire was just from one section of track to another section where so it only carries the current from that section.

These are electric trains, and electricity is a science. That means that many people have gone before you, and made the same mistakes. There are tables that tell you how much amperage will go through a wire. They are called "ampacity" tables.

 

You need to understand that every load has a resistance, and using Ohm's law, you can find the current draw. Using an ammeter is another easy way. You should know, roughly, what every item on your layout draws, just as base knowledge. Just add up the locomotive motor, the passenger car lights, etc. and you will have the total. It's just simple math.

 

Look at column 1 for the size, and column 6 for the amperage capacity:

 

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

 

As an expedient, just use double, triple, or quadruple the number of wires in parallel, and your ampacity will go up. Only do this until you get the right size wire.

 

Note: a hot wire IS a circuit breaker, eventually, so no transformer CB will operate if you use too small a wire.

When I was about 10 years old I hooked up our ZW to a circle of track with phone wire and fired up the ol' 675. In about 5 seconds the insulation began to melt and the wire started to glow red before the breaker tripped. Scared the **** out of me! Never did that again, have always used lamp cord since even now.

 

Jerry

Ha! I remember once I used picture hanging wire to run my trains. Glowed nice and red!  That's also the day I discovered glowing red objects, when handled, hurt too!

I've fried a few, mostly in my younger days. That's the problem with undersized wire. It will go before the breaker pops. Big fire hazard.

 

I recently fried all the wires inside a dash 8 with dual pullmor motors. Man did that stink!! Still trying to figure out how that happened. I think it split a switch, and bridged two power districts, so neither breaker saw an overload, but the wires sure did.

Well that’s only assuming you have all the wires in series such as one set of wires going from the power source to the load.

 

That’s not what I have except for this one temporary wire to fix a bad Realtrax connection. Its only about 3" long and wire can be under sized for short runs.

 

Here is a drawing of what I have. In this configuration you have to figure the current of a single wire as parallel wires or actually mutable wires in parallel

 

I had a Fastrack uncoupling section that gave me a problem once.  The wire coming up through the benchwork was not centered and so the uncoupling track wouldn't sit quite right, so of course I just mashed it down good.  Well, something shorted and that coil for the uncoupler got hot, and I mean HOT!  So hot that it melted the plastic Fastrack roadbed.  It didn't China-Syndrome through the layout and burn the benchwork and house thankfully! 

Wow, I have to say I was hesitant to start this thread, but now after hearing about so many burnt wires, I am just flabbergasted. 

 

I figured that the track manufactures would at least have the correct size wires and I based my wiring according to what was supplied.

 

I think I'm going to pull off all the wires and rewire the entire layout as soon as the Christmas display comes down probably this weekend. In fact I'm unplugging the transformers right now.

All good advice above. When dealing with wire it's better to error on the too large then too small.

16 gauge is good, but 14 gauge makes most of us feel a lot better.

 Like I said before on other threads, I have used 18 gauge with no problem at all but they are short runs to very short blocks so there will not be a long train of passenger cars being feed by it. Maybe an engine and a car at most and it is fused for 8 amps fast blow.

It's unlikely you'd burn up a wire with electromagnetic circuit breakers in each main power line.

As I think about it, there is another thread describing a near miss with a fire. While I would not leave a powered-up layout alone, I'd guess a properly adjusted postwar Lionel #91 circuit breaker would have prevented that issue.

* Note the prevevalent use of phone wire in the photos of that "other" thread.*

This is why most Cable assemblies are paired. lets use Romex House Wire Vs. Knob and Tube house wiring as an example.  if Knob and Tube wire over heated, it would just keep going.  If Romex house wire over heats to the point where the insulation starts melting, the theroy is that it will short itslf causing just about any breaker to trip (dead short)

Now I know Circuit breakers vs fuses, etc have changed considerably in the last 60 years.

And before I get flamed by the EE's on here, I also know that melted wires dont always short, etc etc etc etc etc ect.

Look under most layouts, its a fire waiting to happen, not to metion undersized cabling, The National Electrical Code isn't just a 2" thick coffee table book.

Ryan

 so I ran a small 22AWG phone wire to that section just to get it working.

NO! Don't do this or use it! While I didn't have track wire burn up, I did have Signal Wire burn up. I stupidly used Copper Blasting wire I gathered as salvage from a contruction site to power some 12V HO AHM PRR Position light signals- with bulbs. a short followed after  several months and the wire melted. IF it wasn't for the thick 2x4 plywood support member, the fire would have gotten a lot worse.

andf this was on a conventional layout! I can't imagive running CC with 18V constant on a track and using the 22 Guage wire!

#22 wire is good for 7 amps for short runs, at least according to Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas.  I measured my genset current consumption with all the smoke units running and moving at full throttle (no cars) and I was only consuming 4.4 amps.

 

A few amps over a long run shouldn't burn the wire up, it'll just have an excessive voltage drop, especially if it's in free air.

your correct John, BUT remember, voltage drop also causes increased current draw.  I know we were all yelled at for overly complicating electrical stuff on here but.....

 

But remember :

 

P/IE 

let me add, I am comparing things to MY layout, where some of the feeder runs are in excess of 150 feet.

 

voltage drops and current draws may not be so much an issue on a small lay out although still worthy of considering

Ryan

I think we're talking about drops from the track, not the power bus!  Nobody in their right mind considers track power runs of 150 feet with small wire!

 

quote:

Note the prevevalent use of phone wire in the photos of that "other" thread.*

 

What gauge is phone wire?

In my experience the breakers will trip properly (instantly) with 24 gauge alarm wire.

CW  I think phone wire is 24

 

John I still think 24 is a tad light for drops on an O gauge layout, I plan on using 14 for drops and  10 on the longer busses back to the control center

It could be that I read the layout fire thread to quickly. I did not see where the unfortunate orginaly poster wrote that it was feeder wires that caused the fire. He wrote that it was something internal to a switch machine.

If that is the case, using a heavier gauge wire would not have prevented this mishap, as some folks have suggested. 

I know I sound like a broken record. Folks should have appropriately sized overcurrent protection (circuit breakers or fuses) in each of their power lines.

Magnetic breakers trip faster than thermal breakers.

CW my replies have nothing to do with the fire thread. I think he has a stuck activation switch that caused that, I dont think that had ANY thing to do with wire size.

Ryan, my comment wasn't directed at you. My apology if it appeared that way.

 

There is a general theme in this thread and the fire thread that could lead one to beleive that using wire that was too small was the cause.

In addition, there are folks who advocate using wire that is heavy enough to withstand the full load of a postwar ZW.

 

All I was trying to say was that this terrible issue might have occured even with heavier wire.

Additionally, using heavier wire isn't going to keep a trace from being vaporized on a circuit board if a short is running through it. An electromagnetic circuit breaker or fuse might.

I agree that drops should be heavier, I'm not arguing for #22 wire for drops.  Personally, I typically use #16, but the drops are less than a foot to the bus.

 

If you look back, I was just commenting on the characteristics of the wire, not advocating it's use in this context.

CW and John.,   No offenses taken, I never finished my EE degree, but I did work in commercial / Industrial Electrical contracting for 10 years.  believe me, I have seen it all.  (well alot any way)

 We did a 1000 amp service for a huge Turkey farm, and they (the farmer)

 used an agricultural contractor for the interior wiring of the barns.   that guy ran #12 romex almost 900 feet to a 5 HP blower fan.

 

any way, you guys just need to be careful and do some home work before messing with electric.

 

Please use common sense and be safe.

Ryan 

I've seen some interesting electrical fires as well, just recently outside my house after Sandy went through, a 14KV line was cooking the pole, nice fire 30 or so feet up!

I just wonted to add that I do use 22 gauge wire to feed my gargrave switch motors. But again, they are no more then twenty feet runs and fused for 2 amps fast blow.

Circuit breakers are designed to protect wiring. That is why a 20 amp circuit uses 12 gauge wire. (Assuming run is not so long that voltage drop bumps up current) 15 amp uses 14 gauge. I would guess 16 is good for 10 amps and 18 at least 7 amps. If you use 18 gauge and do not fuse it properly it is bad electrical practice. But larger wires do not necessarily prevent fires. Good connections that minimize arcing reduces the risk. That is why knife switches are no longer used.

Well I’m assuming that since I have a CW-80 transformer that it has circuit protection for 80Watts and at 18 volts that would be 4 ½ amps.

 

Table 402.5 of the NEC for fixture wires states that 18 gauge is rated for 6 amps so I’m not worried

http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/cords-and-fixture-wires

The wire you have hooked to your cw-80 is 14-2 cl2 inwall speaker wire, best price I have found is www.monoprice.com. 100 ft is $22, 500ft $129 also comes in 12 ga 16 ga and 4 conductor.

I smoked many a wire when I was a kid with the ole ZW running my trains often because I was left to fend for myself wiring everything up with whatever wire I could find.  I learned really quick that thicker was better especially for longer runs.  Less resistance, less heat.

With the CW-80's I use now, 18 gauge wire is good enough for my small layout since it won't supply more than 5 amps.

Can't say I have smoked any wires in over 35 years...

Wow thanks 400e, I would never have guessed speaker wire. $22 looks like a good price and I don't think I'll ever need more than a 100 ft roll