Are the Lionel MPC Dash-8 Diesels Scale?

RM: You'll get answers all over the spectrum on this I suspect; IMO, these are "large-traditional" engines. I haven't taken a scale rule to them, but I suspect they are short in most dimensions and maybe overly tall to boot.

As far as "looks" go, I think I'd run them with what what sold as "Standard "O" " rolling stock from the MPC/LTI era.

D&H 65 posted:

RM: You'll get answers all over the spectrum on this I suspect; IMO, these are "large-traditional" engines. I haven't taken a scale rule to them, but I suspect they are short in most dimensions and maybe overly tall to boot.

As far as "looks" go, I think I'd run them with what what sold as "Standard "O" " rolling stock from the MPC/LTI era.

I've seen them paired nicely with the original traditional scale TOFC Spline Car sets from the same time period, since they match the height of these engines quite nicely

No

No, they are not scale. They are indeed too tall and the bodies actually too short for the six axle Dash 8-40C variant. (Many hobbiests assume the only difference is in trucks, and that’s not so—a three foot difference in length means a different frame and car bodies on the prototype).  Think of them as traditional Lionel type engines, but on the very big side.

If you want scale models look at MTH for the “C” model and Atlas O for the “B” variety. A semi-scale alternative that might look nice with traditional sized, nonscale, rolling stock is the MTH Railking version. If I were matching the Lionel spine cars, that’s likely what I’d try to find.

Here’s a look at the MTH Premier and Atlas O scale models. One can see the length and proportion differences between the B and C variants and from the Lionel MPC models:

The MTH model is actually longer than the Lionel and the Atlas about the same length.

The Lionel models are big and brawny and if they appeal to you, well the idea is to have fun. But they would tower over these scale versions and over a lot of scale rolling stock too. I hope this helps. 

RM

Rich Montague posted:

No, they are not scale. They are indeed too tall and the bodies actually too short for the six axle Dash 8-40C variant. (Many hobbiests assume the only difference is in trucks, and that’s not so—a three foot difference in length means a different frame and car bodies on the prototype).  Think of them as traditional Lionel type engines, but on the very big side.

If you want scale models look at MTH for the “C” model and Atlas O for the “B” variety. A semi-scale alternative that might look nice with traditional sized, nonscale, rolling stock is the MTH Railking version. If I were matching the Lionel spine cars, that’s likely what I’d try to find  

Here’s a look at the MTH Premier and Atlas O scale models. One can see the length and proportion differences between the B and C variants and from the Lionel MPC models:

The MTH model is actually longer than the Lionel and the Atlas about the same length.

The Lionel models are big and brawny and if they appeal to you, well the idea is to have fun. But they’ve would would tower over these scale versions and over a lot of scale rolling stock too. I hope this helps. 

RM

Thank You for the reply! I am a traditional scale modeler so my layouts are never really about anything except fun and trying to get things to look pretty normal despite not being to scale, hence why I was curious about these engines. I have always found It to be a decent challenge to make the largely scale-height traditional diesels look good with traditional rolling stock, which is often much shorter in height. I usually solve the problem by putting a flatcar with a load or a gondola behind the diesels rather than something like a boxcar to throw off the apparent height difference. These diesels are something else when it comes to excess height however and may even end up being a little to "Traditional" even for me! 

Definitely not scale, too short....  I agree, though, that these Dash 8's and the SD40's look good with the Lionel intermodal cars of the same era, i.e. the spline cars and double stacks made to work with the Mi-Jack crane accessory.  I have a Lionel 6-18205 UP Dash 8-40C and a Lionel 8376 UP SD40 for sale if you are interested, my email is in my profile. 

In a word, no. These diesels are not scale as they are too tall and the hoods are too wide. However together with the other "scale diesels"of that era they look ok. I personally sold all those diesels.

Lionel was in a bit of a pickle with these. When they first came out, in the '80s, Lionel buyers still demanded the Pullmor motor. But in a top-of-the-line engine, they wanted two of them; people were not going to be happy with only a single motor in the cab, as on the Geeps. Since the Pullmor is larger in circumference than a can motor, Lionel had to make the long hood wider than it should have been, to accommodate the motor. This was also true of the SD40s already in production at that time.

The excess height was at least partly the fault of using the trucks originally designed to be used under the GP chassis (a cost-saving measure no doubt). That chassis is a metal stamping with a flange turned down on the sides--meaning that the truck was recessed about 3/16" into the hollow in the frame. The SD40s and Dash-8s are designed differently, and the use of same truck pushed the cabs up by that extra 3/16".

At the time the Dash-8s were made, Lionel was still committed to O-31 compatibility, and so was a lot of its customer base. Though it would probably not have cost much more to make the engine scale length, it would probably have kept the Dash-8 off of a lot of layouts that existed at that time.

A lot of compromises, understandable, given the market at the time; but they have definitely not aged well. Like someone said above, they look at home with other Lionels of their time, especially the '80s and '90s Standard-O cars, many of which also sit too high. And the STD-O boxcars are too short (in length); I mean, yes they are a scale 40 feet. But how many 40' boxcars were left in the wild in the 1980s? So they go well with the too-short / too-tall Dash-8. Definitely don't run it with the 6464 / 9700 boxcars, though.

nickaix posted:

Lionel was in a bit of a pickle with these. When they first came out, in the '80s, Lionel buyers still demanded the Pullmor motor. But in a top-of-the-line engine, they wanted two of them; people were not going to be happy with only a single motor in the cab, as on the Geeps. Since the Pullmor is larger in circumference than a can motor, Lionel had to make the long hood wider than it should have been, to accommodate the motor. This was also true of the SD40s already in production at that time.

The excess height was at least partly the fault of using the trucks originally designed to be used under the GP chassis (a cost-saving measure no doubt). That chassis is a metal stamping with a flange turned down on the sides--meaning that the truck was recessed about 3/16" into the hollow in the frame. The SD40s and Dash-8s are designed differently, and the use of same truck pushed the cabs up by that extra 3/16".

At the time the Dash-8s were made, Lionel was still committed to O-31 compatibility, and so was a lot of its customer base. Though it would probably not have cost much more to make the engine scale length, it would probably have kept the Dash-8 off of a lot of layouts that existed at that time.

A lot of compromises, understandable, given the market at the time; but they have definitely not aged well. Like someone said above, they look at home with other Lionels of their time, especially the '80s and '90s Standard-O cars, many of which also sit too high. And the STD-O boxcars are too short (in length); I mean, yes they are a scale 40 feet. But how many 40' boxcars were left in the wild in the 1980s? So they go well with the too-short / too-tall Dash-8. Definitely don't run it with the 6464 / 9700 boxcars, though.

Very Cool info! Thank you! It's great to get a cross section of the mentality of the time; that helps explain a lot. And I agree, 6464s are a huge taboo to run behind one of these! XD

RetroMikado posted:

And I agree, 6464s are a huge taboo to run behind one of these! XD

Couple of details - these Dash 8s aren't MPC era. They were introduced after that, during the so-called LTI (Lionel Trains Inc.) era. Secondly, there are few, if any, taboos, let alone huge ones, in the hobby.  I'm not a fan of T-Rexs riding around in gondolas, for example, but for some guys, it turns their crank. 

Incidentally, Lionel traditional Geeps are scale-sized, and thousands of operators have and do run traditional Lionel boxcars and other rolling stock behind those, and other scale engines, which has been true since the 50s.

breezinup posted:

RetroMikado posted:

And I agree, 6464s are a huge taboo to run behind one of these! XD

Couple of details - these Dash 8s aren't MPC era. They were introduced after that, during the so-called LTI (Lionel Trains Inc.) era. Secondly, there are few, if any, taboos, let alone huge ones, in the hobby.  I'm not a fan of T-Rexs riding around in gondolas, for example, but for some guys, it turns their crank. 

Incidentally, Lionel traditional Geeps are scale-sized, and thousands of operators have and do run traditional Lionel boxcars and other rolling stock behind those, and other scale engines, which has been true since the 50s.

Very true, and being a traditionalist I have run the smaller cars behind my 'scale' diesels many times; I really meant I try to avoid running those boxcars RIGHT behind the engine as it throws off the look. I prefer to put a gondola or some sort of flatcar with a load behind the engine, that usually helps to make the height difference a bit less noticeable. As far as the engines era goes, I wasnt sure exactly when they came out so I figured it was a safe bet to refer to them as MPC, as it has come to mean any late 20th century lionel production, even thought technically LTI Era started in '85. Its a bit more colloquial of a term Thanks for the info!

can these run On O27 curves?

Mike I'm not sure about ordinary curved track.  That might depend on how much "swivel" is built into the trucks, and even slack in the wiring.  But I can guarantee that those long, low-hanging fuel tanks will hit the indicators, and probably also the switch machines on the O27 brown 5121 / 5122 switches.

It's no coincidence that these were exactly the same length as the postwar FM TrainMaster.  Lionel didn't want to upstage its "other" premium diesel.  And an FM won't go thru O27 switches, either. 

So no, they aren't accurate models.  But they are good runners, if a bit current-hungry.  The two Pullmor motors working in tandem give them better starting charateristics than ANY diesel with two vertical can motors, at least up to the point until Lionel reintroduced its "LionDrive" trucks with back-drivable gears.

I have the Norfolk Southern version of this engine shown above. I bought it as part of a set with money I got from working on the Hurricane Andrew recovery effort. It looks great, runs great and pulls great. I would not hesitate to run it with any consist myself.

I was under the impression that these Dash 8 engines had issues with several accessories because of their size. CN someone comment on this please?