Are Williams E7's Scale Sized?

I don't have a Williams E7, but forum member Bob Delbridge does.  When comparing the 3rd Rail E7 to the Williams E7, this is what he posted.

Side-by-side with the WBB (Williams) E7 I can see the 1/2" shortened length of the WBB unit (the side window "wind screen" is absent).

Going by that I have to assume that you are correct and the Williams E7 is a bit short.

Having recently got one of the 3rd Rail E7s and compared them I can say the WBB E7 is 1/2" too short, most noticeably forward of the cab doors and aft of the rear side windows/filters:

WBB E7:

3rd Rail E7:

I still need to remove the large couplers and put Kadees on the 3rd rail engine.

The WBB engine started out as an unpowered unit (can't recall the roadname).  I powered it, added the ERR Cruise Commander kit, and the MRC AC Sounder kit.  I also striped, repainted, re-lettered the shell for Seaboard.

In the end I spent just as much doing that as what the 3rd Rail engine cost to come with all that already done.

Bob,

I noticed that the number boards are in different places on both locos.  Just curious to know which location is correct for the Seaboard.  Don't know that I would care if they were my engines but was wondering.  I bet the conversion of the Williams was enjoyable.  I like to tinker like that over just buying one ready to go.

Phil Randall

Phil,

BOTH

3039 was a later phase than 3029.  Here's 3041 (like 3039) with the numberboards at a 45 degree angle on the nose:

and here's earlier 3025 (like 3029) with the boards on the sides and farther back:

The 3rd Rail engine 3029 even came with the elongated nose handrails.  You can barely see them in the photo, but I was able to pull them out so they would look like the prototype.

I supplied 3rd Rail with a lot of data in making this engine and feel they did it justice.  There's only 2 things I can find that need to be addressed.  One is that most all the SAL E7s had an angle ledge/step on the fireman's side, just in front of the cab door:

and the other is that most (not all) SAL units had the rear window glass replaced with air filters.  This would have required a new, smaller frame for the air filter to fit inside the hole for the window.

If I want to I should be able to fix those 2 issues myself.  I can see that if 3rd Rail had included these it would have driven up the cost for adding these alterations.

Some SAL units had a Hancock air horn instead of the 5-chime horn, some even had single horns.

I have been wondering about these Williams E Units.

Thank you for the Comparison. I have not yet acquired any more of the Williams power. I did get a GP9 in freight to go with the Hudson. Prices are dropping though.

Also a side question if I may ask.. the WBB Pax cars that go with these engines have shadow windows, what happens if these were removed to open the interiors for possible addition of chairs and people?

And back to one more on topic question. Did the Dummy prove to be too much of a liability when pulling a train and require to be powered?

Phil,

I really did have a good time modifying the WBB unit.  It was easy to remove the cast-on grabs and apply wire where needed.  The grilles on the WBB unit are brass pieces that have tabs that are bent to keep them in place.

The hardest part was applying the red stripes down the sides.  I had to use 2 sets of Microscale decals (they ought to tell folks that 1 set isn't long enough), but it came out alright.  Finding a 5-chime horn was harder than I thought too.  Adding the ERR Cruise Commander was easy, but since I don't have a TMCC Command Base I haven't really used it yet to it's full advantage.

Modifying/scratchbuilding/etc is great IF parts are available and you can find them.  I've learned my lesson on a couple of builds that I started only to find I couldn't get everything I needed to complete the project.  Some folks have the tools and knowledge to make some parts, but sometimes I can see a part and don't even know what it's called or what type of item it is.  How to you find a water hatch for a tender when all you've got to go on is a part number and no dimensions?  I bought a bunch of brass parts a while back only to find out they were too big or too small for my project.  I took a guess and was wrong, that was an expensive lesson.

Lee,

I bought the dummy by itself (don't recall how or where I got it) originally to use it as a display model.  When I found out I had/could get all the stuff to power it I decided to do it.  The re-power kit included new trucks (you have to reuse the existing sideframes), motors, electronic circuit boards, etc.

Seaboard rarely bought A-A, A-B, A-B-A, or A-B-B-A sets and the idea of the manufacturers packaging them like that is a turnoff for me, another reason to buy a single un-powered unit.

I don't have any WBB passenger cars, all 5 of mine are K-line, All-Nation, or OK Engines.

Thanks for all the replies!

Bob, I must say that I like the look of your "improved" Williams E7 even better than the 3rd Rail version.  Great work!

My idea was to pick up some Williams E7's to use with my MTH scale E6's but it seems that the Williams locomotives are considerably smaller and thus would not look "right" alongside the MTH scale diesels.

Are the Williams E7's "compressed" all around or just in length?

From what I measured, just the length.  Height and width are very close.

If you took a quick glance at them side-by-side I doubt you'd see the difference in detail unless you stopped and took a good look.  Then you'd see the sharper detail of the 3rd Rail model instead of where I had to shave off the molded-on garbs etc from the WBB model.

Is it me or do the front screen look to large on the Williams model?.

Mike,

It's probably a bit big.

here's the WBB E7:

and the 3rd Rail:

Thanks for the information Bob!

So, it sounds like the Williams unit is just a 1/2" short but otherwise it is not too far off of scale.

Is it possible that the 3rd Rail unit is 1/2" too long?    Or is it dead on scale length?

I have a pair of the Williams CB&Q E7A units, which I had super detailed, prior to the Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD E7 models announcement/arrivals. They look exceptional at the headend of my 12 car Golden Gate Depot Burlington heavy weight passenger train. 

From three feet away, nobody has ever stated that they "Look 1/2 inch too short".

I am sure that the shorter Williams units look close enough to scale length when running together with other Williams units.  My concern is "mixing and matching" with other manufacturers' versions.  Specifically, MTH and Lionel E6's which it seems are full scale length.