AT&SF 5000 "Madam Queen" For Sale

Note that $3.5 million insurance carrier is required to bid.

What a stupid idea.

Hello guys and gals..............

The WORSE thing can happen is if the city  of Amarillo fails to sell it then they CAN have it cut up and sent to scrap !!!!   I HOPE that DOES NOT happen !!!!!.  The society has pour 800,000 dollars into it and this might keep the city from scrapping it !!!

Tiffany

City officials often do not care a fig about historical places or objects. What ever makes money NOW is what captures their interest.

In England several years ago I was amazed at the dedication of the British to restoring and maintaining so many wonderful steam locomotives. They do a better job than we do. As much as I love to see the restorations in our country, we seem to pale in comparison to the dedication and success of the British in restoring their history and heritage on the rails. Perhaps it is emblematic of us as Americans that we would rather see what is new and a marvel of recent technology than to preserve the old. We almost lost Grand Central Terminal, for goodness sakes.

I hope Madam Queen makes it. Both the Queen and I need to be restored.

Scrapiron Scher

The question is not why the city of Amarillo has opened an avenue towards the sale of the locomotive.

The question is who came forward with an offer in the first place?

Who really needs a 2-10-4 locomotive?

Especially a 2-10-4 that hasn't run in about 65 years? 

Considering that there is a 2-10-4 in Texas that has been stored inside. AND is not, in the grand scheme of things, that far from operational. AND could be had? 

In a word, ODD.

I am, also, perplexed as to why the City of Amarillo would wish to sell the Madame Queen.  Have seen it many times, my kids enjoyed seeing her when visiting my brother and family in the '90s.   So many of our heritage in steam power needs preserved, not sold to be possibly scraped!  And to NOT allow the historical society to bid on and keep it, this is not a good way to have good PR for any city.  A sad state of affairs......

Jesse   TCA

Sell it to BNSF, They need a steam engine...

SDIV Tim posted:

Sell it to BNSF, They need a steam engine...

Why? Besides, the 5000 is a plain bearing locomotive, i.e. the drivers do NOT have roller bearings, thus no major class 1 railroad would even touch it with a ten foot pole. The major railroads will not even MOVE an old diesel switcher unit with plain bearings, unless it is loaded on a flatcar. 

I know it's an industrial artifact and not a structure but I wonder if the city of Amarillo has historic preservation ordinances?

http://amarillo.com/stories/19...d.shtml#.V5YB46LVPDA

Yep, as usual.   Governments make laws to apply to the people.  Never to themselves.

SDIV Tim posted:

Sell it to BNSF, They need a steam engine...

The 2626 would be a better candidate.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

SDIV Tim posted:

Sell it to BNSF, They need a steam engine...

The 2626 would be a better candidate.

Rusty

Definitely! Plus, the 2926 is being restored/rebuilt by others without BNSF having to spend any of their own funds. Besides, just why does management of BNSF "need a steam engine" anyway? They could contract/lease any of the following without much advance notice: AT&SF 3751, SP 4449, Milwaukee RD 261, or NKP 765.

Hot Water posted:

SDIV Tim posted:

Sell it to BNSF, They need a steam engine...

Why? Besides, the 5000 is a plain bearing locomotive, i.e. the drivers do NOT have roller bearings, thus no major class 1 railroad would even touch it with a ten foot pole. The major railroads will not even MOVE an old diesel switcher unit with plain bearings, unless it is loaded on a flatcar. 

I know the Daylight is a special case, but overall it is too easy to say no plain bearings allowed... The NS has shown no fear of Steam equipped as such. 

Irregardless, the idea that BNSF is in the market for a steam engine is ridiculous. The further discussion of this would be worthy of a gold medal in the waste of time Olympics. 

Having said that, SOMEONE is interested. The City of Amarillo did not roll out of bed and say "Hey, let's sell our locomotive!". Someone came forward and made an offer. Who? And just as intriguing. Why? 

Good looking loco, hope it works out and someone get's it who will preserve it.  I can't see why it would be picked for operation though, especially in Amarillo. It's not like there is any real tourist activity or large population to draw from.  Can the rail network there even support it and does their exist anywhere to turn it?

TexasSP posted:

Good looking loco, hope it works out and someone get's it who will preserve it.

There is a group of volunteers who are indeed "preserving" #5000, and even had it moved to a much more secure location. The "moving event" even appeared on that TV show "Mega-Movers", as I recall. Why the city officials are trying to sell the 5000 out from under the volunteer preservation group is beyond description. 

 I can't see why it would be picked for operation though, especially in Amarillo. It's not like there is any real tourist activity or large population to draw from.  Can the rail network there even support it and does their exist anywhere to turn it?

This sale may never happen. There is a good amount of "talk" here in north Texas, that the whole bidding/sale process has not followed state and local legal procedures.

HW, thanks.  I agree , it's really bad what the city is doing to the volunteer group.  I just don't understand restoring it to operation.  But, if they want to and can, more power to them.  I see nothing wrong with it.

Mowingman, good info.  Where do you live in North Texas?

Eldodroptop,   one word parts.   I overheard a conversation between Steve Lee and I don't know who in the Cheyenne roundhouse in the summer of 81 and those guys had started scoping out all the Challenger locos as well as others for the best parts to rebuild 3965.   They knew where  all the display locos were what they were and what was still salvageable.  Maybe the one in a shed could benefit from parts off the Amarillo engine?

aterry11 posted:

Eldodroptop,   one word parts.   I overheard a conversation between Steve Lee and I don't know who in the Cheyenne roundhouse in the summer of 81 and those guys had started scoping out all the Challenger locos as well as others for the best parts to rebuild 3965.   They knew where  all the display locos were what they were and what was still salvageable.  Maybe the one in a shed could benefit from parts off the Amarillo engine?

Nope, not parts. The 5000 and the 610, while both 2-10-4 locomotives, are as similar as a Ford is to a Chevrolet. 

Along that line of thinking both of these locomotives would be terrible candidates for restoration if a big consideration were available spares on sister locomotives. Sure many sub systems are off the shelf parts made by well known suppliers from the days of steam but the locomotivies themselves are unique. 5000 was a one of one design and the 610 is the last of her siblings in existence.

Hate to ask this ...but it may come down to what is its worth in scrap?

J Daddy posted:

Hate to ask this ...but it may come down to what is its worth in scrap?

 

Very difficult to judge that, as the city may NOT want it "scrapped on site", thus moving the locomotive, again, becomes a major issue. Even at that, what with the price of scrap iron/steel being fairly low, not to mention the extreme cost of labor & materials to "cut it up in place", even the total weight of the scrap may still not offset the costs involved.

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Hate to ask this ...but it may come down to what is its worth in scrap?

 

Very difficult to judge that, as the city may NOT want it "scrapped on site", thus moving the locomotive, again, becomes a major issue. Even at that, what with the price of scrap iron/steel being fairly low, not to mention the extreme cost of labor & materials to "cut it up in place", even the total weight of the scrap may still not offset the costs involved.

Which begs the question is there something planned for the site which will bring money in to off set the cost of cutting it up with a torch?

Hopefully somebody will find it a home...

Scrap is an interesting business.  The more it costs to transport then break down the scrap, the less value it will have.  This is why you see large sea vessels sold for $1.00 to scrappers.  If the scrappers paid straight scrap value, the actual cost would be too high and money would be lost.

Case in point, I had some obsolete punch presses I was scrapping years back.  In the end, I was actually giving them away as the cost to break them down and transport them to the scrappers took all potential scrap value out of the presses for us.  The cost involved cranes, rigging,and partial disassembly on top of transportation. Probably very similar to what it would take for this loco.

NYS&W scrapped their remaining vintage diesels on site in 1988 and they were gone within the week. 

PAUL ROMANO posted:

When NYS&W scrapped their remaining vintage diesels in 1988 they were scrapped on site and gone within the week. 

Certainly logical, as scrapping a diesel electric units brings a LOT more money do to the other, much more valuable metals, such as copper. Also, some of the components, like cooling fans, traction motors, main generators, auxiliary generators, and diesel engine components can be sold as re-buildable cores to component remanufacturers.

TEXASSP - I am located in Denton, Tx.

Jeff

My completely unknowledgeable guess as to what happen would be along the lines that someone in the current preservation group queried the city about purchasing the locomotive to get clear title and to make it more attractive to get funding, not realizing this would kick off a formal RFI process to make sure all interested parties have a chance to bid.

SDIV Tim posted:

Sell it to BNSF, They need a steam engine...

Well, it would be nice if BNSF would take it and put it on display by one of their yards in Amarillo (they have a big presence there), but that would be dreaming, I suppose. Interstate 40 goes right over one of the yards.

hello guys and gals..........

It would really be SAD to see it get cut up because that engine is Santa Fe's first TRUE 2-10-4 then came along 5001 and 5011 class 2-10-4's which I think they came with rolling bearings, one piece cast engine frame/cylinder.  If the city will get money from scraping the engine then they will find way to do that. Talk about city corruption !!!!

Tiffany

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Hate to ask this ...but it may come down to what is its worth in scrap?

 

Very difficult to judge that, as the city may NOT want it "scrapped on site", thus moving the locomotive, again, becomes a major issue. Even at that, what with the price of scrap iron/steel being fairly low, not to mention the extreme cost of labor & materials to "cut it up in place", even the total weight of the scrap may still not offset the costs involved.

Adding to this would be any environmental abatement required as part of the scrapping. 

That's one of  the reasons all of the old RR bridges exist, denuded of their track.   No one wants the liability of dealing not only with taking down an old structure but handling all of the environmental compliance issues that go with lead paint and the like.

Rule292 posted:

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

Hate to ask this ...but it may come down to what is its worth in scrap?

 

Very difficult to judge that, as the city may NOT want it "scrapped on site", thus moving the locomotive, again, becomes a major issue. Even at that, what with the price of scrap iron/steel being fairly low, not to mention the extreme cost of labor & materials to "cut it up in place", even the total weight of the scrap may still not offset the costs involved.

Adding to this would be any environmental abatement required as part of the scrapping. 

That's one of  the reasons all of the old RR bridges exist, denuded of their track.   No one wants the liability of dealing not only with taking down an old structure but handling all of the environmental compliance issues that go with lead paint and the like.

This just might be what is needed to keep it where it is and not scrap it , only time will tell !!!!!!

Tiffany

SANTA FE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE NUMBER 5000

I can't believe it will be scrapped. I reckon some Amarillo politicians are jockeying to get money out of it without thinking it through. Maybe the preservation group can slap a lien on the 5000 for all the work they put into it.

Unanswered question: does the city of Amarillo have some special reason for wanting the land vacated where the loco is now?

Steel at scrap yard here in Omaha was 135.00 a ton

aterry11 posted:

Steel at scrap yard here in Omaha was 135.00 a ton

I'm sure that is "processed" scrap, and delivered to the scrap yard.

Nope, Mr. Hotwater,   That price is for anyway you get it there.  A good scrapper with a decent truck not on meth can make 450. or more a day picking up stuff for free.   When iron/steel hits 300. or better a ton. You will see very piece of old farm equipment,washer ,dryer,fence anything metal going buy on every available conveyance.   My junior high school friends family has been in to junk metal for generations.  There is ungodly money in it, and Omaha having been an industrial hub for years no short supply.  When UP demolished the shops it was a buffet unlike any other.  And newer tech allows a higher return on junk. You can have any old car, title or not picked up and get 300., or drive it across the scale and get 400. title or not. Said car is then dismantled/ destroyed and separated for precious metals and average car generates 900. to 1000. depending on size, in valuable metals no smelting necessary.  Ironically  scrap yard resides on site of former CNW/ and I'm not sure how many other rairoads  North Omaha interchange yard along the N16th st corridor.   Omaha has always been a huge railroad town, can't tell so much now, it's all gone.

ATERRY11,

What you described is still considered "processed scrap". Try bringing in say, a complete diesel engine, or say a pilot truck from the 5000, and see if your scrap yard would take THAT.

Around here, there are 2 basic prices for scrap, based on the size of the pieces.

1. Long iron: Lower price/ton paid for this. It is also called unprocessed. I think anything with any dimension of more than about 3' is considered "long iron"

2. Short Iron: Higher price/ton paid for this. Also called  processed scrap sometimes. All dimensions under about 3'.

Dimension limit may actually be more like 2', but I can not remember.

Jeff

I think this is a total outrage that the city wants to sell the locomotive after a dedicated preservation group has put so much work into making the locomotive fit for display. It's not an eyesore.

http://www.visitamarillo.com/l...ng/madame-queen/500/

location on Google map imagery, SE 2nd Ave and SE Lincoln St

Street view of Madame Queen in Amarillo

I'm speculating that the city might have the idea of trying to redevelop this part of town and someone decided it wouldn't fit in to their envisioned scheme.

The locomotive is only 400 feet from existing railroad tracks. What are the prospects of building temporary panel track to maybe move it out by rail? There aren't a lot of buildings in the way. I imagine the boiler would have to be lifted off the running gear to load manageable pieces on flatcars.

I reckon the city is going to run into a lot of flak if there is any serious talk of scrapping the loco, for lack of an "acceptable" bid price.