AtlasO not attending April York

aussteve posted:

I go to York twice a year for one reason (1744 miles one way).  I can see more O and S gauge trains in 3 days than I can in 10 years worth of WGH, GATs or whatever.  I don't go to take my family and get a free train whistle and balloon.  If I did, WGH would be the way to go.  I'm not interested in Z, N, HO or live steam, again WGH is better.  York undoubtedly has the best attendance to $ spent ratio on O trains.  As a seller that is what I was interested in.  Based on comments from other sellers who have sold at the WGH, it's just not worth my time.

I yield to the wisdom of EDTCA who have been doing this for over 50 years.  They maybe don't have what you want or don't do it the way you want.  If that's the case, you should go elsewhere.

It is a shrinking hobby whether you admit it or not.  Many train shows I used to go to regularly have been discontinued, so I enjoy York for what it is.

If the EDTCA York show was a sponsor of the OGR Forum, these threads would have been removed as soon as they were posted.  Every six months we hear the same thing from the same people. 

It's been kinda slow coming out this time and I was contemplating searching for the old whiners threads to review in preparation for this York.  But thankfully a thread on Atlas trains has digressed into the usual York thread.

Aussteve:

This is one of the best posts I have read in a long time on the Forum. Very thoughtful and spot on. Thank you.

Pat

john dellagrotte posted:

SJC posted:

Joe Hohmann posted:

Ted Bertiger posted:

I just think attendance would be greater or increased if it was held in Philadelphia Question is would be if there is a venue or fairground to accommodate the sheer size of York?

I'm pretty sure the expo center in Oaks PA or the convention center in Philadelphia could not contain the entire York Meet. Parking-wise, Oaks is tight and Phila is forgetaboutit. In my opinion, York is a ideal spot in that it is a reasonable drive from the NYC, Phila, D.C. and Baltimore metro areas. 

I'm of the opinion that the venue is not the issue. The stupid half-day Thursday, Friday, half-day Saturday schedule is the problem. Want the public to attend? Want kids to attend? You've GOT to have it during normal business hours (10-5 for example) on SATURDAY AND SUNDAY! People have to go to work, kids have to go to school, etc. There is NO WAY the "public" admission thing will be successful with the meet schedule the way it is.

Still want a "TCA Only Day"? Keep Friday as-is, make the rest of it 10-4 (or similar) Saturday and Sunday. Show me any other successful public trade show/event/whatever that has hours as the current York and is growing their attendance.

I totally agree. Would Springfield get 20 thousand with these days and hours? No. If nothing else you certainly would get a few more tca members that do not want to take off work. I always go on Thursday, but I hate the 12pm start. John

As far as the non-member public, the above listed hours would be beneficial on the surface.  But there are other factors involved that are difficult to compromise.

*The Meet used to be Full day Friday and till 2pm Saturday.  Half of Thursday was added to kill off the local bandit meets that capitalized on all the train buyers showing up in one place, spending their money and then not attending the York Meet because they were tapped out.  It seems they were mostly successful in doing this, but it created the odd Meet times.

*There's a constant conflict in what the vendors (Orange and Purple Hall vendors, not the sellers in the member halls) want.  The same vendors that complain there's not enough customers complain about having to stay until 2pm on Saturday, let alone having to be there on Sunday if it were open.  They talk about wanting to get home so I don't see any of them wanting Sunday hours, even if attendance grew.

*The Fairgrounds themselves restrict what the TCA Eastern Division can do with scheduling.  Most of the time they have events scheduled way in advance for Saturday evening and Sundays, so the ED has to get out quick.  Holding the York Meet in any major metropolitan area would be an event killer.  In Philadelphia for instance, the union demands alone would be cost prohibitive, not to mention the rental costs at the Convention Center.  The only other location large enough I know of near Eastern Division territory would be the Timonium, MD. fairgrounds, but they always have something going on and is probably cost prohibitive too and probably can't fit the ED schedule.

*A lot of people don't want to hear it, but the Pennsylvania tax issue is real.  If fully opened to the public even the sellers in the member halls would have to pay sales taxes.  That would kill the meet.  The deal was struck with the state that private sales and trades amongst TCA members would not be taxed.  Now the hobby shops and manufacturers want to steer the Meet to their benefit, not the intended purpose of the York Meet by the members for the members.

* I personally would love weekend hours for the Meet, but as Steve said above the Eastern Division has been doing this, with volunteers, for 50 years.  They know they can't make everyone happy.  The members who attend have been able to adapt and thrive.  I used to be an hour drive away from York.  Now it's a five hour jet ride, but only a travesty could keep me from attending!

My feelings, The meet should be full day Thursday & Friday & 1/2 day on Saturday. As for the Manufacturers, I don't care if they come or not. The York train meet will go on for a long time. Yes, it will get smaller, but it will continue. There will always be train collectors. There is NO show in this country that even gets close for standard,  O Gauge, & S Gauge collectors. I also enjoy the bandit meets on Mon, Tues & Wed. I pray for good weather those 3 day's. Just my 2 cents.

The only other location large enough I know of near Eastern Division territory would be the Timonium, MD. fairgrounds, but they always have something going on and is probably cost prohibitive too and probably can't fit the ED schedule.

Not big enough. Might cover the Orange, Blue and Red but that's it.

Rich

RICHABR. Why would anyone want to change the location of the York meet? WEIRD

RICHABR. Why would anyone want to change the location of the York meet? WEIRD

To make it more convenient for themselves or more accessible to the "big city"?

Rich

It was always nice to see the good people from Atlas O (and Weaver, and the big guys) at York.

I have attended the WGH.  While it had more exhibits of running trains, and while I wish they had more running trains at York, I left the WGH event empty-handed.  The York event is superlative.  I first went ten years ago, so I probably missed the hey-day; but I have been four times, and each time found treasures, sometimes things I was looking for, sometimes things I was not.  (Last time it was the 21-inch K-Line PRR Jeffersonian 6-pack I always wanted and could never find at any price, there for a bargain.)  Made connections with fellows who carry parts I was unlikely to find anywhere else ... Found a few guys who have the time and knowledge I do not to give that old ZW or LW transformer new life. 

Anyone out there who has never been to York and is on the fence, ignore the naysayers, just like you would ignore the guy that runs down Marilyn Monroe - plenty there to like, even if you do not find her perfect. 

As far as the location, that is part of the charm.  If you are coming a distance, you can enjoy lots of other things in the area, both railroad-related and not.  You can visit the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum in Strasburg - which also has a top-notch miniature golf course and creamery - or go to the historic Farmer's Market in York, or visit Lancaster, or visit the TCA museum, or see the running steam engines at the Strasburg Railroad; if it is not too far out of your way, go see the huge huge operating Enola hump yard now run by NS at Harrisburg.  If you have family with different interests, they can enjoy other things not far away, such as Hershey Park or Dutch Wonderland or Dorney Park.  Visit the town of Jim Thorpe and take a bike-train along the Lehigh River and enjoy a 2.5 hour gentle ride back down; or go whitewater rafting in Jim Thorpe.  Visit the oldest American brewery, D.G. Yuengling & Sons in Pottsville, Pennsylvania.  Go to Philadelphia and watch one of the world's great orchestras or take in a show at the old Academy of Music.  Do anything but sit home, embittered, and criticize people that work so hard to put on a wonderful model event like nothing else in the country twice a year!

David

eddie g posted:

RICHABR. Why would anyone want to change the location of the York meet? WEIRD

So the posts on the "York" part of the this forum can go on and on...and on. 

Anyone still up for talking about Atlas O not attending York?  Or how about Farmer Bills affinity for scrapple; while we've turned this thread around....and around...

No, I don't want to talk about Atlas O or Farmer Bill, but I want to shout out a big THANK YOU and commend DAVID98 for positive thinking. And David, if you've never done it, take a longer trip and visit us (the NJ HiRailers) in Paterson, NJ to see THE BEST O gauge layout you will ever see and meet the best people.

Gerry

Good Grief!  What is this, a religion?  The Cathedral of York of the Most High Train show?  Mecca in a far too literal sense?

"Naysayers"?  You know, I'd go to York if it were in a reasonable distance for me.  As it is, I'd have to lose both my job and every dime I have just to travel there.  I am not "naysaying."  I am behaving like a responsible adult with a family and responsibilities.  I steward my limited hobby funds while I maintain my job, home, and happiness. 

If I have to throw all that away just to go the York in order to be considered a good railroad hobbyist, then I suppose I am not a good railroad hobbyist.

Mea Culpa, mea cupla, mea maxima cupla:  Forgive me Joshua, for I have sinned by not sacrificing all I have and am and ought to be on gasoline, hotels, and sundry expenses to make semi-annual pilgrimages to the Holy Shrine of York so that I may properly remain indulgent in the Holy Faith of 3-Railing.

Stuff.  Get a grip people.  It is a train show, part of a HOBBY.  I you HAVE to go to  York, if it is a REQUIREMENT for you, then YOU have a problem, not those of us who don't.

David98 posted:

It was always nice to see the good people from Atlas O (and Weaver, and the big guys) at York.

I have attended the WGH.  While it had more exhibits of running trains, and while I wish they had more running trains at York, I left the WGH event empty-handed.  The York event is superlative.  I first went ten years ago, so I probably missed the hey-day; but I have been four times, and each time found treasures, sometimes things I was looking for, sometimes things I was not.  (Last time it was the 21-inch K-Line PRR Jeffersonian 6-pack I always wanted and could never find at any price, there for a bargain.)  Made connections with fellows who carry parts I was unlikely to find anywhere else ... Found a few guys who have the time and knowledge I do not to give that old ZW or LW transformer new life. 

Anyone out there who has never been to York and is on the fence, ignore the naysayers, just like you would ignore the guy that runs down Marilyn Monroe - plenty there to like, even if you do not find her perfect. 

As far as the location, that is part of the charm.  If you are coming a distance, you can enjoy lots of other things in the area, both railroad-related and not.  You can visit the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum in Strasburg - which also has a top-notch miniature golf course and creamery - or go to the historic Farmer's Market in York, or visit Lancaster, or visit the TCA museum, or see the running steam engines at the Strasburg Railroad; if it is not too far out of your way, go see the huge huge operating Enola hump yard now run by NS at Harrisburg.  If you have family with different interests, they can enjoy other things not far away, such as Hershey Park or Dutch Wonderland or Dorney Park.  Visit the town of Jim Thorpe and take a bike-train along the Lehigh River and enjoy a 2.5 hour gentle ride back down; or go whitewater rafting in Jim Thorpe.  Visit the oldest American brewery, D.G. Yuengling & Sons in Pottsville, Pennsylvania.  Go to Philadelphia and watch one of the world's great orchestras or take in a show at the old Academy of Music.  Do anything but sit home, embittered, and criticize people that work so hard to put on a wonderful model event like nothing else in the country twice a year!

David

Yeah, but one illustrious  poster said it was irrelevant.

redjimmy1955 posted:

Anyone still up for talking about Atlas O not attending York?  Or how about Farmer Bills affinity for scrapple; while we've turned this thread around....and around...

Strollers, best place to eat, best place to stay, weather reports. 

To a large extent, threads like this are like a car wreck on the highway.  I try not to look, but can't help myself.

palallin posted:

Good Grief!  What is this, a religion?  The Cathedral of York of the Most High Train show?  Mecca in a far too literal sense?

"Naysayers"?  You know, I'd go to York if it were in a reasonable distance for me.  As it is, I'd have to lose both my job and every dime I have just to travel there.  I am not "naysaying."  I am behaving like a responsible adult with a family and responsibilities.  I steward my limited hobby funds while I maintain my job, home, and happiness. 

If I have to throw all that away just to go the York in order to be considered a good railroad hobbyist, then I suppose I am not a good railroad hobbyist.

Mea Culpa, mea cupla, mea maxima cupla:  Forgive me Joshua, for I have sinned by not sacrificing all I have and am and ought to be on gasoline, hotels, and sundry expenses to make semi-annual pilgrimages to the Holy Shrine of York so that I may properly remain indulgent in the Holy Faith of 3-Railing.

Stuff.  Get a grip people.  It is a train show, part of a HOBBY.  I you HAVE to go to  York, if it is a REQUIREMENT for you, then YOU have a problem, not those of us who don't.

LOL! Sounds like someone took this personally. Whether or not to attend York is a personal choice. Chill out.

I also suspect that Atlas O isn't attending April York, and won't because a certain Eddie G hasn't YET filed a weather report (lol)

It reminds me to cut down and bring in the Dental Floss crop before I leave for York ................( also lol)

York is always fun!  Hope Eddie orders up good weather.

RedJimmy, you’re moving to Montana soon? 

No, Farmer Bill, but depending on the Eddie G weather report, I may wear a real poncho, not a Sears poncho. And if there is SNOW, I'll watch out where the Huskies go......cya at York!  Have a safe travel everyone!

I may stay home this time and turn the water black on my layout and see if we have a freak-out on the layout. after all, the tourture never stops and the car has to go back to Joe's garage! 

aussteve posted:

I go to York twice a year for one reason (1744 miles one way).  I can see more O and S gauge trains in 3 days than I can in 10 years worth of WGH, GATs or whatever.  I don't go to take my family and get a free train whistle and balloon.  If I did, WGH would be the way to go.  I'm not interested in Z, N, HO or live steam, again WGH is better.  York undoubtedly has the best attendance to $ spent ratio on O trains.  As a seller that is what I was interested in.  Based on comments from other sellers who have sold at the WGH, it's just not worth my time.

I yield to the wisdom of EDTCA who have been doing this for over 50 years.  They maybe don't have what you want or don't do it the way you want.  If that's the case, you should go elsewhere.

It is a shrinking hobby whether you admit it or not.  Many train shows I used to go to regularly have been discontinued, so I enjoy York for what it is.

If the EDTCA York show was a sponsor of the OGR Forum, these threads would have been removed as soon as they were posted.  Every six months we hear the same thing from the same people. 

It's been kinda slow coming out this time and I was contemplating searching for the old whiners threads to review in preparation for this York.  But thankfully a thread on Atlas trains has digressed into the usual York thread.

Great post, Steve!

Peter

David98 posted:

It was always nice to see the good people from Atlas O (and Weaver, and the big guys) at York.

I have attended the WGH.  While it had more exhibits of running trains, and while I wish they had more running trains at York, I left the WGH event empty-handed.  The York event is superlative.  I first went ten years ago, so I probably missed the hey-day; but I have been four times, and each time found treasures, sometimes things I was looking for, sometimes things I was not.  (Last time it was the 21-inch K-Line PRR Jeffersonian 6-pack I always wanted and could never find at any price, there for a bargain.)  Made connections with fellows who carry parts I was unlikely to find anywhere else ... Found a few guys who have the time and knowledge I do not to give that old ZW or LW transformer new life. 

Anyone out there who has never been to York and is on the fence, ignore the naysayers, just like you would ignore the guy that runs down Marilyn Monroe - plenty there to like, even if you do not find her perfect. 

As far as the location, that is part of the charm.  If you are coming a distance, you can enjoy lots of other things in the area, both railroad-related and not.  You can visit the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum in Strasburg - which also has a top-notch miniature golf course and creamery - or go to the historic Farmer's Market in York, or visit Lancaster, or visit the TCA museum, or see the running steam engines at the Strasburg Railroad; if it is not too far out of your way, go see the huge huge operating Enola hump yard now run by NS at Harrisburg.  If you have family with different interests, they can enjoy other things not far away, such as Hershey Park or Dutch Wonderland or Dorney Park.  Visit the town of Jim Thorpe and take a bike-train along the Lehigh River and enjoy a 2.5 hour gentle ride back down; or go whitewater rafting in Jim Thorpe.  Visit the oldest American brewery, D.G. Yuengling & Sons in Pottsville, Pennsylvania.  Go to Philadelphia and watch one of the world's great orchestras or take in a show at the old Academy of Music.  Do anything but sit home, embittered, and criticize people that work so hard to put on a wonderful model event like nothing else in the country twice a year!

David

Great post, David!

Peter

irish rifle posted:

palallin posted:

Good Grief!  What is this, a religion?  The Cathedral of York of the Most High Train show?  Mecca in a far too literal sense?

"Naysayers"?  You know, I'd go to York if it were in a reasonable distance for me.  As it is, I'd have to lose both my job and every dime I have just to travel there.  I am not "naysaying."  I am behaving like a responsible adult with a family and responsibilities.  I steward my limited hobby funds while I maintain my job, home, and happiness. 

If I have to throw all that away just to go the York in order to be considered a good railroad hobbyist, then I suppose I am not a good railroad hobbyist.

Mea Culpa, mea cupla, mea maxima cupla:  Forgive me Joshua, for I have sinned by not sacrificing all I have and am and ought to be on gasoline, hotels, and sundry expenses to make semi-annual pilgrimages to the Holy Shrine of York so that I may properly remain indulgent in the Holy Faith of 3-Railing.

Stuff.  Get a grip people.  It is a train show, part of a HOBBY.  I you HAVE to go to  York, if it is a REQUIREMENT for you, then YOU have a problem, not those of us who don't.

LOL! Sounds like someone took this personally. Whether or not to attend York is a personal choice. Chill out.

+1 on irish rifle's response.

  I know that all the recent posts come up on right side of the web page, but before I respond to a post, I usually bother to check and see what sub-forum the post has been made to.  As this thread is in the York TCA Meet sub-forum, I find palallin's response to be silly!

Jim

Palallin, It's only an 800 mile drive..  I drive 535 miles to York, & have been doing it twice a year for 41 years.

Eddie is an overachiever............lol! 

Where I live (sorta close to York, Pa) ,  Mrs. RedJimmy is glad I go to York for a few days, and would be glad if we could move the house to CuCamonga!

I've attended the York show as a manufacturer rep for multiple manufacturers over the past 20 years or so. Now that I am no longer involved with the model RR industry directly I feel safe in jotting down a few observations and relating a viewpoint from someone who was required to attend. First and foremost from a manufacturer's point of view the York show is kind of like attending a huge "Train Club meet" (which this actually is) and as such you are basically speaking to the same folks every show about the same topics. I would stand in the booth and pretty much know what each person was going to speak to me about because I spoke to the same person about the same topic at every York show and unfortunately I could also notice which guys were never coming back because they had passed away since the last York show! The number of walkers and scooters increases every show. If a company is to survive these days they need to introduce their products to new consumers as well as keep the existing ones. From a Marketing perspective do I spend my limited Marketing dollars "preaching to the choir" or spend it on other opportunities for reaching potential new customers? There is nothing wrong with saying hello to everyone and taking their suggestions for products that you know are never going to be produced but at what cost? Just as an example to bring a large display to the hall  a manufacturer incurs the cost of shipping the display to and from the show, the cost of product for the show, the salaries of the folks who man the booth, the hotels rooms for those folks, their meals and other expenses and other incidental expenses (and they all have to be TCA members to get into the hall which requires membership fees). I guess my point is that the manufacturers would be wise to attend just the Fall meet and perhaps the TCA could have a scaled back version in the Spring as a social event with just vendors attending.  The TCA meets were originally just that - meets where guys came to look for deals from other members and socialize. 

I'm not trying to throw a damp rag onto things but I think that it is really a matter of false perceptions. We tend to perceive things as we want them to be - not as they actually are. The hobby industry is a very small affair these days and unfortunately like everything else the costs of producing new models is becoming somewhat prohibitive.The model train manufacturers are not huge multi-million dollar enterprises. They are actually small companies that are struggling to survive in an environment that has changed drastically over the last 10 to 20 years. When I was young model trains were actually playthings that were sold in large numbers to children with a smaller niche audience of hobbyists buying higher end product. That has basically been reversed so that now the main consumer is the older hobbyist and the large group of toy consumers has dissipated. How can a manufacturer survive on high end limited run items that can't possibly sell enough to recoup the cost of manufacturing them? The manufacturers are struggling to find ways to do this but that means you can't have a new item every show - and this is what everyone at York asks - "what's new?" and God forbid you don't have any new items!

This is all just food for thought from someone who has been involved in the Toy and Hobby industry for the past 35 years. I think that sometimes change can be a good thing and needs to be embraced. I was all for the one show a year idea and think it would be something that would take some of the pressure off of the manufacturers. And when you are discussing the old Lionel vs. MTH attending situation remember that York is in MTH's backyard

Jack

BucksCo posted:

I've attended the York show as a manufacturer rep for multiple manufacturers over the past 20 years or so. Now that I am no longer involved with the model RR industry directly I feel safe in jotting down a few observations and relating a viewpoint from someone who was required to attend. First and foremost from a manufacturer's point of view the York show is kind of like attending a huge "Train Club meet" (which this actually is) and as such you are basically speaking to the same folks every show about the same topics. I would stand in the booth and pretty much know what each person was going to speak to me about because I spoke to the same person about the same topic at every York show and unfortunately I could also notice which guys were never coming back because they had passed away since the last York show! The number of walkers and scooters increases every show. If a company is to survive these days they need to introduce their products to new consumers as well as keep the existing ones. From a Marketing perspective do I spend my limited Marketing dollars "preaching to the choir" or spend it on other opportunities for reaching potential new customers? There is nothing wrong with saying hello to everyone and taking their suggestions for products that you know are never going to be produced but at what cost? Just as an example to bring a large display to the hall  a manufacturer incurs the cost of shipping the display to and from the show, the cost of product for the show, the salaries of the folks who man the booth, the hotels rooms for those folks, their meals and other expenses and other incidental expenses (and they all have to be TCA members to get into the hall which requires membership fees). I guess my point is that the manufacturers would be wise to attend just the Fall meet and perhaps the TCA could have a scaled back version in the Spring as a social event with just vendors attending.  The TCA meets were originally just that - meets where guys came to look for deals from other members and socialize. 

I'm not trying to throw a damp rag onto things but I think that it is really a matter of false perceptions. We tend to perceive things as we want them to be - not as they actually are. The hobby industry is a very small affair these days and unfortunately like everything else the costs of producing new models is becoming somewhat prohibitive.The model train manufacturers are not huge multi-million dollar enterprises. They are actually small companies that are struggling to survive in an environment that has changed drastically over the last 10 to 20 years. When I was young model trains were actually playthings that were sold in large numbers to children with a smaller niche audience of hobbyists buying higher end product. That has basically been reversed so that now the main consumer is the older hobbyist and the large group of toy consumers has dissipated. How can a manufacturer survive on high end limited run items that can't possibly sell enough to recoup the cost of manufacturing them? The manufacturers are struggling to find ways to do this but that means you can't have a new item every show - and this is what everyone at York asks - "what's new?" and God forbid you don't have any new items!

This is all just food for thought from someone who has been involved in the Toy and Hobby industry for the past 35 years. I think that sometimes change can be a good thing and needs to be embraced. I was all for the one show a year idea and think it would be something that would take some of the pressure off of the manufacturers. And when you are discussing the old Lionel vs. MTH attending situation remember that York is in MTH's backyard

Jack

For the life me I can't understand why EDTCA would want to have a so called "scaled back" version in the spring.  My personal opinion is that the membership wouldn't agree to that.  York certainly wasn't originally established to attract the importers but rather the rank and file membership.   The importers and OGR are not attending this spring so I don't think it has to be "scaled back'" any further.  If  they don't feel its in their self interest to come that's fine with me but I wish those people who don't want to attend because they won't get the bang for their buck would stop demanding the two meets per year policy be stopped because they don't get anything out of it or because they think its irrelevant.  Thousands of people still flock to York twice a year because they like toy trains and enjoy interacting with other people who enjoy the same and all of these people get something out of it even if the importers and OGR do not.  We go twice a year because we like it so for God's sake l would wish the critics and naysayers  would leave it alone.    Finally, you would think those involved in the toy train industry or anything related to it would have the good common sense not to bite the hand that feeds them and stop running down a pleasant three day outing twice a year for the rest of us. 

OKHIKER, You are right on.

OKHIKER......I concur with your opinion on this matter......well stated and I couldn't agree more.

Sign me up to be on OKHIKERS' team!!!!!!!!!!  I have only gone to York for about 9 years, and in that time I've come to realize the same observations. 

It is N I C E  to see the latest and greatest at a manufactures' booth, yet one can go over to a vendor and see, then buy. 

Didn't say not to have the meet twice a year - just basically suggested to give the manufacturers the option of only attending the fall show. Not sure if you are aware but manufacturers will most likely lose their  spot in the hall if they decide not to attend one of the shows.

Putnam Division posted:

David98 posted:

 

As far as the location, that is part of the charm.  If you are coming a distance, you can enjoy lots of other things in the area, both railroad-related and not.  

David

Great post, David!

Peter

Ho ho. Try moving York to, say, Kansas City, near the mid-point in the U.S., and see what kind of response you get!  I'm sure your "location is part of the charm" argument would really quiet 'em down!!!

It would be enlightening if every person posting a message in this thread would include the dollars spent on Atlas items during the past five years and the dollars spent on Menards model train items during the past five years.  It may show the benefit or non-benefit of a supplier attending York.   John

BucksCo posted:

I've attended the York show as a manufacturer rep for multiple manufacturers over the past 20 years or so. Now that I am no longer involved with the model RR industry directly I feel safe in jotting down a few observations and relating a viewpoint from someone who was required to attend.

.

.

.

This is all just food for thought from someone who has been involved in the Toy and Hobby industry for the past 35 years. I think that sometimes change can be a good thing and needs to be embraced. I was all for the one show a year idea and think it would be something that would take some of the pressure off of the manufacturers. And when you are discussing the old Lionel vs. MTH attending situation remember that York is in MTH's backyard

Jack

Jack...

We'll miss your predictable, cheerful, informative attendance.  I concur wholly with your assessment. 

I especially enjoyed our discussion a couple 'Yorks' ago regarding the potential for OEM battery power in this hobby's future.  I learned much from a major manufacturer's perspective.

Deb and I wish you the very, very best in your new endeavor.  Your new employer has captured a marketing gem in the hobby world.  Perhaps our retail/distribution paths will have occasion to cross under different circumstances in the future.  

As it turns out, last October's meet was probably our last York for the foreseeable future.  The other annual event in our RV lives has been a warm weather visit to Florida....where we are currently.  On this visit we're being strongly encouraged to establish a more permanent abode.  If it comes to pass, the RV will be history, as will the ease and probability of visiting York.  So, as is often the case in our later years, we frequently experience changes in our lives which open new doors, close others.

May God preserve your health, happiness, and prosperity into the future, and the same for your family, Jack.

Ken, Deb, Daisy, Millie 

OKHIKER posted:

The importers and OGR are not attending this spring so I don't think it has to be "scaled back'" any further...

...Thousands of people still flock to York twice a year because they like toy trains and enjoy interacting with other people who enjoy the same and all of these people get something out of it even if the importers and OGR do not. 

Not quite correct! Ed Boyle will be at the meet next week, as will I (at my own expense this time around). There won't be the usual OGR booth in Orange, but Ed will be conducting the OGR Forum Grandstand meeting (or in the adjacent hall) as usual. At this point I'm also planning to attend the breakfast get-together at the Round-the-Clock Diner as well as the OGR Thursday evening agthering at Quaker Steak & Lube. I feel some presence is important to demonstrate that OGR continues to support the hobby now, just as it has for all those many years in the past. I will be wearing my OGR shirt, jacket, and cap, and will be circulating around to meet with manufacturers, distributors, dealers, published and prospective authors, and anyone else who cares to meet with me.

York is a five-hour drive for me, but that is a short haul compared to the days when I drove from Milwaukee, Dubuque, or Blacksburg to get there. Wendy won't be with me this time due to her relatively new food safety job with Chick-fil-A, but she and I both felt it is important for me to attend to demonstrate OGR's continued support to and for our readers, advertisers, the meet, and the hobby in general.

BucksCo posted:

Didn't say not to have the meet twice a year - just basically suggested to give the manufacturers the option of only attending the fall show. Not sure if you are aware but manufacturers will most likely lose their  spot in the hall if they decide not to attend one of the shows.

I was responding to your suggestion that EDTCA put on a "scaled back" spring meet and my position is that it's already "scaled back" because the importers and the official OGR booth have already pulled out.  It need not be scaled back any further.  As far as the importers losing their set up sites in the halls if they choose not to come to one of the meets and that's the EDTCA rule then they should lose them.

One thing I think people should recognize is that if the so called movers and shakers in the toy train/hobby industry to include the importers and magazine publishers  continue to call for a one meet a year policy how long will it take the large vendors like TrainWorld, Gryzboski's, Justtrains, Nicholas Smith and others to join the herd.  So then they pull out.  Who suffers in the end?  Its the individual hobbyist who likes travelling to these meets to purchase both new and old train products and renew old friendships.  But if that once a year policy is implemented the chances of doing that will be reduced because a group of individuals so obsessed with their own self interest and gratifying their personal egos are willing to let the meets suffer only because they are not satisfied.  So the rest of us deal with disappointment. 

Sorry to go on so but I've been listening to this bilge water for several years now and I am heartily sick of it. 

In regards to Allan Miller's and Ed Boyle's presence at York this spring I know all of us appreciate and applaud it because they are dedicated hobbyists but it would seem to me that these appear to be individual decisions rather than corporate decisions because there will be no official OGR booth there which certainly mirrors a corporate decision.

I have one more point I'd like to make and that is there are so many of us that refer to Lionel, MTH, Atlas, et al as manufacturers.  In reality they manufacture little if anything.  Virtually everything produced is from the far east.  

OKHIKER posted:

In regards to Allan Miller's and Ed Boyle's presence at York this spring I know all of us appreciate and applaud it because they are dedicated hobbyists but it would seem to me that these appear to be individual decisions rather than corporate decisions because there will be no official OGR booth there which certainly mirrors a corporate decision.

Ii appears that some folks may have a mistaken impression of how big our OGR "corporation" actually is. Truth is, it's four people, and Ed and I are two of them. There are, of course, other separate agents and agencies involved with producing the products that we do--graphics team, copy editor/proofreader, printer, distribution, financial, etc.--but the core group is four. All four of us are dedicated to the hobby and to seeing it grow to the extent we can promote and influence such growth. If that was not the case, there likely would be no magazine and, by extension, no OGR forum, among other things. And, yes, we expect to be at our Orange Hall booth in October, flying the flag as usual.

OKHIKER posted:

BucksCo posted:

Didn't say not to have the meet twice a year - just basically suggested to give the manufacturers the option of only attending the fall show. Not sure if you are aware but manufacturers will most likely lose their  spot in the hall if they decide not to attend one of the shows.

I was responding to your suggestion that EDTCA put on a "scaled back" spring meet and my position is that it's already "scaled back" because the importers and the official OGR booth have already pulled out.  It need not be scaled back any further.  As far as the importers losing their set up sites in the halls if they choose not to come to one of the meets and that's the EDTCA rule then they should lose them.

One thing I think people should recognize is that if the so called movers and shakers in the toy train/hobby industry to include the importers and magazine publishers  continue to call for a one meet a year policy how long will it take the large vendors like TrainWorld, Gryzboski's, Justtrains, Nicholas Smith and others to join the herd.  So then they pull out.  Who suffers in the end?  Its the individual hobbyist who likes travelling to these meets to purchase both new and old train products and renew old friendships.  But if that once a year policy is implemented the chances of doing that will be reduced because a group of individuals so obsessed with their own self interest and gratifying their personal egos are willing to let the meets suffer only because they are not satisfied; the individual hobbyist be ****ed.  So the rest of us deal with disappointment. 

Sorry to go on so but I've been listening to this bilge water for several years now and I am heartily sick of it. 

In regards to Allan Miller's and Ed Boyle's presence at York this spring I know all of us appreciate and applaud it because they are dedicated hobbyists but it would seem to me that these appear to be individual decisions rather than corporate decisions because there will be no official OGR booth there which certainly mirrors a corporate decision.

I have one more point I'd like to make and that is there are so many of us that refer to Lionel, MTH, Atlas, et al as manufacturers.  In reality they manufacture little if anything.  Virtually everything produced is from the far east.  

While you are technically correct that Lionel, MTH, etc., don't actually manufacture much product (Lionel does manufacture the Lion Scale line), and subcontract it out, they are still considered manufacturers, not dealers.

Allan Miller posted:

OKHIKER posted:

In regards to Allan Miller's and Ed Boyle's presence at York this spring I know all of us appreciate and applaud it because they are dedicated hobbyists but it would seem to me that these appear to be individual decisions rather than corporate decisions because there will be no official OGR booth there which certainly mirrors a corporate decision.

Ii appears that some folks may have a mistaken impression of how big our OGR "corporation" actually is. Truth is, it's four people, and Ed and I are two of them. There are, of course, other separate agents and agencies involved with producing the products that we do--graphics team, copy editor/proofreader, printer, distribution, financial, etc.--but the core group is four. All four of us are dedicted to the hobby and to seeing it grow to the extent we can promote and influence such growth. If that was not the case, there likely would be no magazine and, by extension, no OGR forum, among other things. And, yes, we expect to be at our Orange Hall booth in October, flying the flag as usual.

I am happy as I'm sure others are that there will be an official OGR booth at York in the autumn.  I know this is  just my opinion but I feel that an OGR official booth this spring would have been a good common sense decision to display their continued good will towards all of the individual hobbyists who enjoy traveling to York twice a year to engage in the buying and selling of toy trains as well as the warm camaraderie experienced there.  OGR might not sell much there but the good will they would spread by their presence would continue to be incalculable.  Unfortunately, some of the comments which have been made by at least one OGR representative and possibly more  over the past few years  would appear to indicate that their primary interest is one of quick monetary benefit rather than the long range financial benefit they would realize by a continued twice a year official presence at York.  I fully recognize that you understand this Allan because you and Ed are taking the time and effort to provide a presence there at your own expense and to me that speaks volumes. 

I think OGR as a corporate entity, whether it be four people or four hundred, should realize that their bread is buttered by the several thousand individual hobbyists, including me, who purchase their magazine and travel to York multiple times a year to enjoy the fruits of the world's greatest hobby.  Without us OGR does not exist and many of us want York to remain a twice a year experience.  It has been unfortunate that some at OGR have argued so vehemently in the past to reduce it to strictly a yearly experience.

Let’s keep in mind here that the manufacturers are not allowed to sell at York. They are only there to show case their products. Let’s see how this works out in the long haul for the no shows.