I must be ahead of the times -- been going to York for twenty years and it's always been a social event.
Joe Hohmann posted:irish rifle posted:Jim Rawlings posted:Rich Melvin's observation has a lot of merit.
With all due deference to Rich, couldn't disagree more.
Rich must have some "insider" information on total money spent each year.
Joe:
Very funny!
Pat
rattler21 posted:I have not been to York. What I know about it is from train buddies who have been as both a buyer and a seller and this Forum. That being said, if I were a producer/importer and was thinking about displaying/selling at York, I'd have second thoughts when I watch this Forum and see that members are constantly reminded how many days to go before the event. If people cannot make an entry on their calendars when a 'major' event begins, are they successful enough to have discretionary funds to spend on trains? For the last three years, I've had two tables at The March Meet. Within two hours of opening(which includes Friday evening sales to vendors), enough items have been sold to permit me to consolidate to one table and allow another seller to use the empty table. Two rail modelers may use The March Meet as a social event, but the primary goal is to buy or sell items. There is plenty of time to socialize after the trading hall closes. If York is the market place where Forum members look for specific items, why are not those items listed in the Want To Buy forum? Or are we all like kids in a candy store where we don't know what we 'need' until we see it? John
John:
I think you may be misinterpreting the thread about how many days there are until York. I think virtually everyone knows when the York Meet is and, if they don't, they can easily check the Eastern Division website. This is more of a fun thread about the excitement that builds the closer it gets to the time of the Meet. Some participants also use the thread to plan when and where to get together at the Meet. I also think it has little to do with how much money the participants plan to spend at the Meet.
Pat
Hudson J1e posted:BMT-Express posted:When WGH has attendance in the 20,000's and York in the 13,000's where is you money better spent?
TCA WANTED it to be a social thing, not a buying thing. Witness the lack of advertising when the open house days happened. Now watch the tv ads when WGH comes to town.
I personally believe it is a crap shoot that a typical O Gauge train dealer will sell more at the WGH than York. Yeah, maybe it could happen but maybe not. True the WGH roughly has double the attendance of York but for the most part these are families where the parents have no interest in railroads and just trying to appease their youngster who like Thomas. They are most likely trying to get through the day without spending a lot of money. I can’t see them buying any high dollar locomotives or high priced passenger cars or anything high priced. Just my opinion.
Also an apples to oranges comparison. WHG Show has all gauges. York Show is almost exclusively O Gauge. Probably far more O sales at the York Show.
Been going to York for all of twelve years.....to me it seems like a social event that takes a chunk out of your wallet. take a look around when you( whoever) come and go out of the halls............I distinctly see folks carrying several boxes to their vehicles, and many times that's there first trip ( a la myself) ! It ain't their lunch! You know who you are!
i wish there were a few less grumps at York, .......and bashing the TCA? Well, then don't attend............moderator included!
redjimmy1955 posted:Been going to York for all of twelve years.....to me it seems like a social event that takes a chunk out of your wallet. take a look around when you( whoever) come and go out of the halls............I distinctly see folks carrying several boxes to their vehicles, and many times that's there first trip ( a la myself) ! It ain't their lunch! You know who you are!
i wish there were a few less grumps at York, .......and bashing the TCA? Well, then don't attend............moderator included!
Jimmy:
Well said. Was also bashing the Eastern Division. Very surprising and disappointing.
redjimmy1955 posted:.......and bashing the TCA? Well, then don't attend............moderator included!
When I did not renew my TCA membership there was no follow up, no "did you forget" from TCA. They never bothered.
I have been to York 68 straight times and for me it is a buying show and seeing and talking to the mfgs and vendors.
Yes there is a social part to attending York but for me its all about the trains. I don't socialize allot at the show but I do talk to people I have met over the years but hanging out a--------NO.
Dave
Incredible. Over the last several years Melvin has been disparaging York after the meet was over but now he's bashing it even before it has started. Quite honestly I am growing a bit weary of all the negative whining and carping about York and EDTCA. Give it a rest Dude.
Been attending York for 26 consecutive years and finally missed one last October due to illness. There was no way I would have been able to attend. It hurt me not going. Missed buying some trains and missed the social aspect of seeing folks from around the country there. Yes, York is having their issues with attendance but I will not bash the EDTCA for putting on the show year after year. It is a huge undertaking to put on the show.
I just think attendance would be greater or increased if it was held in Philadelphia or Baltimore area as they are a larger city that would attract more general public on the Friday/Saturday event. Question is would be if there is a venue or fairground to accomodate the sheer size of York?
BMT-Express posted:redjimmy1955 posted:.......and bashing the TCA? Well, then don't attend............moderator included!
When I did not renew my TCA membership there was no follow up, no "did you forget" from TCA. They never bothered.
TCA sent me a reminder this year, Was due in December. then sent me a thank you note with my updated card.
Clem
I can not say I have been to York many times because it’s a 15 to 18 hour drive from Clarksville Tennessee, but I have been there 4 different times. I have, in all four times, spent less than $2K. In April 2017, I purchased the first Lionel Brass/Hybrid and am so happy that I did. I go to meet the folks at OGR, they are all special, and their neat Video’s, and products, the Lionel Booth, and there new products and their (used to bring their large Fastrak Display), Layout, MTH and all of their new things, and of course Atlas O, and their new trains, and CSX Al at his Millhouse Turntable Booth, or the Ross Track display, or all the OGR Forum Sponsors, and Lou Palumbo, with his stories about the Underground, realistic views of the hobby, and All the Big Dealers with fantastic bargains and beautiful displays...The Grandstand Performance with each of the manufacturers telling their stories, their product forecasts and samples....Oh, the fun of being with thousands of folks interested in model trains....Yes, it cost lots of money to attend these shows, and especially all the vendors and their employees, and I can understand why it’s cost prohibitive twice a year, it’s simply expensive. In reality, I go for the fun of seeing large club layouts, Visiting with many collectors, and of course, seeing folks from right here, our OGR Forum Friends. I applaud all of the folks that set up their displays in all of the Halls provided at York. In my humble opinion, it’s the very Best of the Best, in our O guage hobby. I am glad to be a member of the TCA, LCCA...Atlas O Charter Member.... Happy Railroading.
Ted Bertiger posted:I just think attendance would be greater or increased if it was held in Philadelphia Question is would be if there is a venue or fairground to accommodate the sheer size of York?
I'm pretty sure the expo center in Oaks PA or the convention center in Philadelphia could not contain the entire York Meet. Parking-wise, Oaks is tight and Phila is forgetaboutit. In my opinion, York is a ideal spot in that it is a reasonable drive from the NYC, Phila, D.C. and Baltimore metro areas.
Joe Hohmann posted:Ted Bertiger posted:I just think attendance would be greater or increased if it was held in Philadelphia Question is would be if there is a venue or fairground to accommodate the sheer size of York?
I'm pretty sure the expo center in Oaks PA or the convention center in Philadelphia could not contain the entire York Meet. Parking-wise, Oaks is tight and Phila is forgetaboutit. In my opinion, York is a ideal spot in that it is a reasonable drive from the NYC, Phila, D.C. and Baltimore metro areas.
I'm of the opinion that the venue is not the issue. The stupid half-day Thursday, Friday, half-day Saturday schedule is the problem. Want the public to attend? Want kids to attend? You've GOT to have it during normal business hours (10-5 for example) on SATURDAY AND SUNDAY! People have to go to work, kids have to go to school, etc. There is NO WAY the "public" admission thing will be successful with the meet schedule the way it is.
Still want a "TCA Only Day"? Keep Friday as-is, make the rest of it 10-4 (or similar) Saturday and Sunday. Show me any other successful public trade show/event/whatever that has hours as the current York and is growing their attendance.
Yawn...no surprise to me, Atlas has been less and less a part of the O Gauge world progressively over the last decade. They are off my list for sure.
Atlas is still big in the smaller scales, they should move to the Yellow Hall with their breathern.
Hmm... seems to be a common theme here. What you get out of a hobby is what you put into it.
Atlas has put nothing into this event for quite some time, thus my comment. If they came to the table and brought some enthusiasm, products, and sales efforts into O scale trains, it would be a win - win.
I could name allot of booths that just sit there at a table with a sign, they may have some pamphlets but they don't even have the common decency to say hello. Some have that look on their face that somebody took a dump in their corn flakes that morning.
Really?! I think one of the "model booths" is Al's From Mill House Studios. I have not purchased anything from him, But he is always there to meet and greet. A big hearty hand shake and willing to discuss and let you operate the new turntable or transfer table that he has on display. One day when I have the space and money for his products, I will be lining up to purchase.
That's just one of many booths with the right attitude that makes me come back for more. Any seller that looks you in the eye with a smile and is willing to make a deal has my hard earned dollar.
And you can give me the ole argument that this hobby is dying, but I will refute that, and tell you no. Its the spirit of the hobbyist that is dying, the crowds are still coming. You just have to bring them in with the right attitude.
SJC posted:Joe Hohmann posted:Ted Bertiger posted:I just think attendance would be greater or increased if it was held in Philadelphia Question is would be if there is a venue or fairground to accommodate the sheer size of York?
I'm pretty sure the expo center in Oaks PA or the convention center in Philadelphia could not contain the entire York Meet. Parking-wise, Oaks is tight and Phila is forgetaboutit. In my opinion, York is a ideal spot in that it is a reasonable drive from the NYC, Phila, D.C. and Baltimore metro areas.
I'm of the opinion that the venue is not the issue. The stupid half-day Thursday, Friday, half-day Saturday schedule is the problem. Want the public to attend? Want kids to attend? You've GOT to have it during normal business hours (10-5 for example) on SATURDAY AND SUNDAY! People have to go to work, kids have to go to school, etc. There is NO WAY the "public" admission thing will be successful with the meet schedule the way it is.
Still want a "TCA Only Day"? Keep Friday as-is, make the rest of it 10-4 (or similar) Saturday and Sunday. Show me any other successful public trade show/event/whatever that has hours as the current York and is growing their attendance.
I totally agree. Would Springfield get 20 thousand with these days and hours? No. If nothing else you certainly would get a few more tca members that do not want to take off work. I always go on Thursday, but I hate the 12pm start. John
Menards doesn't go either. From messages on this Forum it looks like more dollars are spent on Menards' rolling stock than on Atlas. Is this selective bashing? John in Lansing, ILL.
While the schedule thing is a good thought, there is probably also the unknown (to most of us) of whether the fairgrounds could even be easily (or economically) rented for the extra weekend day. If so, would that drive the cost up significantly enough that it would now be necessary to increase admission/table/booth pricing to allow Sunday to happen? Based on comments I've seen, the contract the EDTCA has with the fairgrounds is also negotiated in advance. It's not like they can just say in April of any given year, "hey for October we'd like to try something different".
I know I've seen comments from some people with booths/tables regarding needing to evacuate the fairgrounds in quick fashion so that another scheduled event could start their setup. IIRC, this might have been from one of the modular groups set up in the Black Hall.
Grass is always greener....
-Dave
Show me any other successful public trade show/event/whatever that has hours as the current York and is growing their attendance.
The Eagle Arms 3-day gun shows I've attended at Oaks. Starts at 1 pm on a Friday, and is mobbed. By 2 o'clock, parking spaces are gone. Draws more people every show (about 3 per year).
Joe Hohmann posted:Show me any other successful public trade show/event/whatever that has hours as the current York and is growing their attendance.The Eagle Arms 3-day gun shows I've attended at Oaks. Starts at 1 pm on a Friday, and is mobbed. By 2 o'clock, parking spaces are gone. Draws more people every show (about 3 per year).
Probably not a lot of kids in strollers?
York is just a local train show. What about the rest of the country? If companies and dealers would change their ways, it might be profitable for all to attend anywhere. I have several ideas.
I'll go to bat for Atlas. Small, old-line family business and very likely thinly capitalized but solid and very "conservative" in their spending. That's how they've survived over the years through thick and thin.
It behooves Atlas to go 200 miles each way with a full size van partially full of existing or display models of not yet released products, stay 3 days and then pack up and head back to NJ. That's 400 miles at 17 MPG plus 3 days of hotels. Plus meals and dealer rates at a train show.
Not much money for an Amazon but for a family business that's dealing with the brutalities of offshore production, I'd rather have Atlas put that money towards a flight to China to straighten out their situations there.
Or spend it on retooling their products to improve them when possible.
What Atlas is experiencing is the final chapter from the MBA playbook for out-sourcing all manufacturing - the title is "Total Loss of Control of Your Product"....
Train6666 posted:Joe Hohmann posted:Show me any other successful public trade show/event/whatever that has hours as the current York and is growing their attendance.The Eagle Arms 3-day gun shows I've attended at Oaks. Starts at 1 pm on a Friday, and is mobbed. By 2 o'clock, parking spaces are gone. Draws more people every show (about 3 per year).
Probably not a lot of kids in strollers?
A lot more than York, but no, they don't sell toys for the kids at gun shows.
I remember this subject came up years ago. Farmer Bill said, "What's the difference between the people attending a train show vs a gun show?" Answer: The women at a train show have more teeth.
FWIW...my only last comment about York is so many folks are correct that the half day Thursday is kinda weird. It honestly must benefit the sellers, EDTCA, or something I don't see. KUDOS to EDTCA for always a HARD JOB well done. Let's hope Eddie can work his magic on the weather this April 😎
redjimmy1955 posted:FWIW...my only last comment about York is so many folks are correct that the half day Thursday is kinda weird. It honestly must benefit the sellers, EDTCA, or something I don't see. KUDOS to EDTCA for always a HARD JOB well done. Let's hope Eddie can work his magic on the weather this April 😎
I would guess it might be that a lot of sellers are able to set up in the 5 or 6 hours before the noon opening, saving the cost of a overnight stay. I realize I may be in the minority, but I like the schedule as is. I think it avoids the old "Friday mob scene".
Perhaps what we want traditionally and need financially for self and hobby sustainability is two shows in one at York. As a late-to-the-ball exhibitor, I really like the camaraderie of Thurday and Friday. As I stated previously, I enjoy regular customers stopping by to buy, chat about how they used one of our models or need something to fill somewhere. Diner breakfast on Thursday morning is a great way kick it all off and to meet someone new. I am attached to the booth at the hip so I don’t get out much during show hours on those days.
Then comes Staurday. In my opinion the show needs to improve on Saturday. Let’s all work hard to create awareness for the public to attend the dealer halls. It is too late for print ads. Tell your non-TCA hobby friends and families to make a day of it. If you have never been to York and can free the day for it, go. The dealer halls have more than you can really take in in one day. Great artwork, manufactures’ representatives, myself included, and a huge selection of engines, passenger cars and rolling stock. We’re all set for you and look forward to seeing you! And here’s a hook: if you are non-TCA member, come on Saturday and spend at least $250 on my models, I will refund your registration fee.
If you are into trains how can you NOT be into York
As for Atlas not being at York; no problem. They really weren't that big a player in O gauge of late . They're more of HO company. They do seem to be falling behind in the hobby in general; I guess it was the factory hassle in China.
JJ posted:If you are into trains how can you NOT be into York
Some of us have lives--and budgets--that require other priorities. I'd throw away more than a year's train budget and stock of vacation days just travelling there and back. So I spend my money and time--such as they are--on trains, not travel.
And, for the record, you have no reason to determine who is or is not "into" trains, especially based on criteria such as this one.
JJ posted:If you are into trains how can you NOT be into York
Easy.
Rusty
palallin posted:JJ posted:If you are into trains how can you NOT be into York
Some of us have lives--and budgets--that require other priorities. I'd throw away more than a year's train budget and stock of vacation days just travelling there and back. So I spend my money and time--such as they are--on trains, not travel.
And, for the record, you have no reason to determine who is or is not "into" trains, especially based on criteria such as this one.
Yup. Some folks in the vicinity of York may not get it. Most of the county is west of them, a long way west! 3000 mile round trip for me. Just getting there with air fare, car rental and lodging and food would cost a LOT. Spending $1500 just to attend to a train show? That dog don't hunt for most people.
Atlas 2 rail modern cars are my favorite. There are also some by other brands on my list. Most of my 2 rail track and switches are Atlas. I tested a few pieces of other brands so far.
As long as Atlas stays in O scale 2 rail, I will try to keep up with what they release. I need some of their latest engines but my budget isn't ready.
If they decide to skip April York, so be it. I will still be a big fan of their modern 2 rail products. I started unboxing a large stash of cars. Probably like 85% is Atlas.
I go to York twice a year for one reason (1744 miles one way). I can see more O and S gauge trains in 3 days than I can in 10 years worth of WGH, GATs or whatever. I don't go to take my family and get a free train whistle and balloon. If I did, WGH would be the way to go. I'm not interested in Z, N, HO or live steam, again WGH is better. York undoubtedly has the best attendance to $ spent ratio on O trains. As a seller that is what I was interested in. Based on comments from other sellers who have sold at the WGH, it's just not worth my time.
I yield to the wisdom of EDTCA who have been doing this for over 50 years. They maybe don't have what you want or don't do it the way you want. If that's the case, you should go elsewhere.
It is a shrinking hobby whether you admit it or not. Many train shows I used to go to regularly have been discontinued, so I enjoy York for what it is.
If the EDTCA York show was a sponsor of the OGR Forum, these threads would have been removed as soon as they were posted. Every six months we hear the same thing from the same people.
It's been kinda slow coming out this time and I was contemplating searching for the old whiners threads to review in preparation for this York. But thankfully a thread on Atlas trains has digressed into the usual York thread.
AUSSTEVE, you got it right.
Agree with Eddie. Steve got the nail on the head.
Gerry
aussteve posted:
I yield to the wisdom of EDTCA who have been doing this for over 50 years. They maybe don't have what you want or don't do it the way you want. If that's the case, you should go elsewhere.
That's about it. Well put.
AUSSTEVE that was extremely well said. Thank you. I totally agree. I love going to York and I will continue to go until they close it down.
The end of the message was "See you in October".
The Atlas O staff will be back in October.
Andrew
