I received a email from AtlasO saying that they will not be attending the April York but will have catalogs available in their usual spot and will be attending the October York. It seems the chips are starting to fall.
Dave
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david1 posted:I received a email from AtlasO saying that they will not be attending the April York but will have catalogs available in their usual spot and will be attending the October York. It seems the chips are starting to fall.
Dave
Atlas O had considerably cut its presence at York the past few years, so this does not come as a real surprise. Unfortunate, but hardly a major loss. Lionel is apparently not going to attend either. Lionel had also significantly cut back on its presence at York the past few years. While I think that Lionel's decision not to attend is a more serious mistake than Atlas', because of Lionel's status as the #1 manufacturer of O Gauge trains, the loss of a terrific marketing opportunity for its products, and the ability to build and deepen relationships with its customers and dealers, it too is not the end of the world. As long as the dealers continue to attend, who really cares? In the meanwhile, MTH will be at York and is poised capitalize on the mistakes of its competitors.
Nobody cares, eh!! No wonder they are not attending.
Dave
Well it seems to me both are making a big mistake. MTH certainly WILL make out better, although I was turned off from MTH a few years ago when I wanted to talk to Mike Wolf after he was talking to a few guys, I waited my turn and he just brushed me off and walked away. Do that to me and you are done in my book. I much prefer the other vendors and TCA members anyway, I just hope this doesn't hurt the Eastern Division Show for the future meets. I am really getting turned off with the the major train manufacturers anymore. You order, you wait months, maybe a year. I am getting more into pre and post war the last 2 yrs.
Atlas used to have a great display at York. Has faded in past few years. Hope they are back in the fall.
david1 posted:Nobody cares, eh!! No wonder they are not attending.
And there's your answer to your own question, 
It's really not AtlasO anymore. Hasn't been in a long while. Just Atlas and O gauge is one of their many scales they make.
Given their serious problems with their manufacturers, they probably don't have anything to display.
superwarp1 posted:It's really not AtlasO anymore. Hasn't been in a long while. Just Atlas and O gauge is one of their many scales they make.
And of the scales they make, O is their smallest product line. (Although what they make in O is very nice.)
I got the same email. I can’t really blame them although I always enjoyed seeing their display. The cst of attending and nothing really new to display probably did them in.
To me it’s worse that Lionel isn’t attending due to their status in the hobby and the history of the company but I guess they are saving money as well.
I will most likely still have a great time as I plan to attend.
If I worked for Atlas, I'd get tired of being constantly asked when they are going to be shipping stuff, so I wouldn't mind avoiding York.
Face the facts. The expense out ways the rewards. It's a tough business decision to make. The monies can be used for other events that have a greater public attendance.
What a shame how it seems they are crumbling...I used to chat with Jim Weaver at York.....to me they put out nice stuff. I would agree that their problems seemed to begin with non delivery/ major delays of their products.
I agree, I really liked Jim Weaver, he was the man that made Atlas O a serious contender in the O guage marketplace. His 21st Century Track and accessories brought me back into the three rail model train hobby. That with Lionel TMCC, gave me a good reason to build my current 22 year old layout. Atlas O, in my opinion makes quality products. Sorry they can’t make the meet. Great thread, Happy Railroading. (for the record, most all my track is Atlas O, also I have several of their O guage Diesels, and many of their cars, and their service department is always helpful) nuff Sayd...
As far as Atlas is concerned, I am seeing more freight cars in the 80+ to 90.00 price range. Really? What are they smoking? Part of their problem may be pricing themselves out of the market. The same malady is no less prevalent in L and MTH. But I digress. From my perspective, certainly with regard to MTH with whom I have a closer relationship, it seems that the TCA is becoming more and more of a disincentive. The leadership is more myopic and needs some new and energizing blood (and much better advertising to encourage attendance at York as well as a more reasonable annual membership fee that might help draw in younger, less affluent folks). And sometimes its the repetition of very dumb announcements at York (constant announcements about following the arrows on the floor when you are walking along the aisles, staying at your booth and refrain from wandering around to visit others or stern warnings to folks in the Orange Hall not to start packing up before closing time on Saturday....just to name a few). Factor in the glut of trains in the marketplace and the absence of new products (especially from MTH), along with the penchant of many to turn to the secondary market to avoid the astronomical mfr's prices, one can possibly discern a motivation not to attend. Just sayin'; smoke 'em if you got 'em.
ATLAS does have some very nice engines rolling stock etc., but the problems for purchasing something. It takes years sometimes for them to come onshore. Real turn off.
redjimmy1955 posted:What a shame how it seems they are crumbling...
It’s not Atlas that is crumbling, it’s the York meet itself. It is no longer relevant to the hobby business the way it used to be. It has morphed into a big social event where old friends meet and greet. While that’s fine and serves a purpose, it doesn’t help the business side of things.
Times and demand have changed and so have we. 
Using 3d printing and modern techniques will bring 85 dollar freight cars back to 35 again.
Companies need to re-invent & position themselves for future business or... 
Atlas O made some great stuff. Unfortunately, the last few Yorks they really did not bring anything to the table … literally. they did have a nice large layout, but no products at discount prices, so it was a loss for them and us.
They really need to take a step back and evaluate if they want to be a player in O at all.
The last Atlas display that I saw was at the 2016 Model Transit Meet at Rutgers where they introduced these HO NJT models:
The reps were friendly and answered questions as best that they could but did state that there were no plans at that time to introduce these in O.
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Rich Melvin's observation has a lot of merit.
laz1957 posted:ATLAS does have some very nice engines rolling stock etc., but the problems for purchasing something. It takes years sometimes for them to come onshore. Real turn off.
It sure has been a tough ride these past years.
Hopefully Atlas finally has it all straightened out this year, and their very nice engines and rolling stock become regularly available again.
FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:redjimmy1955 posted:What a shame how it seems they are crumbling...
It’s not Atlas that is crumbling, it’s the York meet itself. It is no longer relevant to the hobby business the way it used to be. It has morphed into a big social event where old friends meet and greet. While that’s fine and serves a purpose, it doesn’t help the business side of things.
Oh, come on Rich, give me a break. The York Show is crumbling? Really? It no longer relevant to the hobby business the way it used to be? What the heck does that mean? While the attendance numbers are not what they were in the glory years of the hobby and the Show, there are still thousands of people who attend every Show. So this is now only a social event? There are no sales made in the dealer and member halls? I guess the dealers, TCA members and members of the public who attends the Show must be stupid.
Jim Rawlings posted:Rich Melvin's observation has a lot of merit.
With all due deference to Rich, couldn't disagree more.
irish rifle posted:Jim Rawlings posted:Rich Melvin's observation has a lot of merit.
With all due deference to Rich, couldn't disagree more.
Thats called denial...its only going to get worse, Rich is spot on. Take a look around, its all part of the change in current times.
Laidoffsick posted:irish rifle posted:Jim Rawlings posted:Rich Melvin's observation has a lot of merit.
With all due deference to Rich, couldn't disagree more.
Thats called denial...its only going to get worse, Rich is spot on. Take a look around, its all part of the change in current times.
LOL! See my earlier post directly responding to Rich. Then tell me you disagree.
SIRT posted:
Using 3d printing and modern techniques will bring 85 dollar freight cars back to 35 again.
Not if Shapeway's pricing is any indication.
Rusty
I will be attending/exhibiting at York for the 7th consecutive time in April. Four years ago I embarked on a new venture to offer architectural models for the O Scale market and had heard that York was the best place to offer them. It has been daunting, exhilarating and frustrating at every York meet that I have attended. We work to always bring something "new to the table" and somehow every six months comes up too quickly and I feel not quite ready for the primetime.
I have experience in coordinating, shipping and setting up for large conventions, the NAHB's International Builders Show. Ten years ago, the expense for me to set up a trade show booth in Orlando was about $16,000 before I met my first customer. Las Vegas added another $5,000 to ship the display to and from the convention ( I drove the display to and from Orlando). The NAHB was gracious enough to one year hire a trade show consultant to coach exhibitors on how to work the convention floor. I sat in the same room as reps from Home Depot, Kohler and GE, just to name a few. The first thing he brought up was that you must understand your short and long term goals and reasons for attending, and whether those goals and reasons match your overall business plan. I am confident that Atlas has made the right decision for themselves. Personally, I am going to miss Gerry, Pat and Steve as they were mentors to me and the early days of the Somerset 4-H Trainmasters.
So that brings me to why I attend York. I want to grow my product line and customer base. I am fortunate to say that I have some regular customers and they make my day when they come back. I want to learn materials and methods, and share the same with my customers. I want to talk trains, real and scale (I spent 5 years in consulting engineering designing mass transit and railroad facilities and was the adult leader of the Somerset 4-H Trainmasters for 14 years). I want the hobby to grow and I want to be part of it. I want to have fun and serve a purpose, both financially and emotionally, at the same time.
So come and talk to me about the next craft architectural model that you and 50-100 people want on their layout. Let's meet for breakfast on Thursday morning and then transact some business in the Orange Hall. I am across the aisle from Angela and Bob, and down the aisle from MTH. And tell your S Scaling friends that our latest offering is available in their scale, too!!!
I know that what Rich said applies to me. I might buy something, but I used to go to REALLY BUY things. Spending at York always used to be (not sure how many hears ago) 4 figures. It hasn't come anywhere near that for the past few years. The simple truth is that I (and probably many others who have been attending for years) have way too much. So the incremental value isn't there. And there certainly isn't a "need". So while attendance remains the same, spending can easily decrease.
Gerry
Jim Rawlings posted:As far as Atlas is concerned, I am seeing more freight cars in the 80+ to 90.00 price range. Really? What are they smoking? Part of their problem may be pricing themselves out of the market. The same malady is no less prevalent in L and MTH. But I digress. From my perspective, certainly with regard to MTH with whom I have a closer relationship, it seems that the TCA is becoming more and more of a disincentive. The leadership is more myopic and needs some new and energizing blood (and much better advertising to encourage attendance at York as well as a more reasonable annual membership fee that might help draw in younger, less affluent folks). And sometimes its the repetition of very dumb announcements at York (constant announcements about following the arrows on the floor when you are walking along the aisles, staying at your booth and refrain from wandering around to visit others or stern warnings to folks in the Orange Hall not to start packing up before closing time on Saturday....just to name a few). Factor in the glut of trains in the marketplace and the absence of new products (especially from MTH), along with the penchant of many to turn to the secondary market to avoid the astronomical mfr's prices, one can possibly discern a motivation not to attend. Just sayin'; smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Jims post is great. Even though I could afford to buy some of the new stuff, but I prefer the secondary market. I could have bought the lionel BB when it came out 1900. Instead got a brand new JLC version for 850. To each his own but I can't see paying that kind of money for something that is only marginally better. I would have liked one of those 425 pacifics but 1259. Are you serious? I Can't believe their are that many people out there buying them where the companies can produce them. I will wait until someone wants to take a bath on theirs , then buy it. My favorite part of the show is the member halls. Seems like more and more empty tables every show. That combined with manufacturers leaving makes it alot less fun. If it gets much smaller October might be my last one. I will start going to Allentown and save 50 bucks a year . John
irish rifle posted:Jim Rawlings posted:Rich Melvin's observation has a lot of merit.
With all due deference to Rich, couldn't disagree more.
Rich must have some "insider" information on total money spent each year.
FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:redjimmy1955 posted:What a shame how it seems they are crumbling...
It’s not Atlas that is crumbling, it’s the York meet itself. It is no longer relevant to the hobby business the way it used to be. It has morphed into a big social event where old friends meet and greet. While that’s fine and serves a purpose, it doesn’t help the business side of things.
True, it's not Atlas. But there are myriad industries that have multi-day conferences where manufacturers have a presence at a great expense. They aren't there to sell; they are there to show industry support and to connect with their customer base and vendors.
On another note - in my book, Atlas O products are synonymous with best-in-class.
When WGH has attendance in the 20,000's and York in the 13,000's where is your money better spent?
TCA WANTED it to be a social thing, not a buying thing. Witness the lack of advertising when the open house days happened. Now watch the tv ads when WGH comes to town.
BMT-Express posted:When WGH has attendance in the 20,000's and York in the 13,000's where is you money better spent?
TCA WANTED it to be a social thing, not a buying thing. Witness the lack of advertising when the open house days happened. Now watch the tv ads when WGH comes to town.
I think the last York was only 10000. John
Model Trains is not a business that fits the big company business models. That’s why we need an individual with interest in this hobby to provide us with product and not be driven solely by profits. Lionel is no longer the company it was when Richard owned it. Let’s hope Mike hangs in there. Here’s an idea for the York Spring meeting——Have the manufactures set up service/repair areas where customers can get the stuff they bought for the Holidays fixed. This should increase the draw for attendance!
BMT-Express posted:When WGH has attendance in the 20,000's and York in the 13,000's where is you money better spent?
TCA WANTED it to be a social thing, not a buying thing. Witness the lack of advertising when the open house days happened. Now watch the tv ads when WGH comes to town.
I personally believe it is a crap shoot that a typical O Gauge train dealer will sell more at the WGH than York. Yeah, maybe it could happen but maybe not. True the WGH roughly has double the attendance of York but for the most part these are families where the parents have no interest in railroads and just trying to appease their youngster who like Thomas. They are most likely trying to get through the day without spending a lot of money. I can’t see them buying any high dollar locomotives or high priced passenger cars or anything high priced. Just my opinion.
All the attendees at York already know about Atlas and Lionel. Its the same audience year after year The train importers know this, so what benefit does it provide to present the same shtick show after show?
I have not been to York. What I know about it is from train buddies who have been as both a buyer and a seller and this Forum. That being said, if I were a producer/importer and was thinking about displaying/selling at York, I'd have second thoughts when I watch this Forum and see that members are constantly reminded how many days to go before the event. If people cannot make an entry on their calendars when a 'major' event begins, are they successful enough to have discretionary funds to spend on trains? For the last three years, I've had two tables at The March Meet. Within two hours of opening(which includes Friday evening sales to vendors), enough items have been sold to permit me to consolidate to one table and allow another seller to use the empty table. Two rail modelers may use The March Meet as a social event, but the primary goal is to buy or sell items. There is plenty of time to socialize after the trading hall closes. If York is the market place where Forum members look for specific items, why are not those items listed in the Want To Buy forum? Or are we all like kids in a candy store where we don't know what we 'need' until we see it? John
I have not been to York either. But I hope to get there someday. I'm sure I would enjoy it and find what to buy.
MELGAR
Rich Melvin hi jacked the original post by turning it into a TCA bash. Unacceptable.
