Bad Actor PS3 Diesels

there have been many ideas posted for curing some issues. Moving the wires away from the torrid coil thingamajig......cleaning the black paint off of the screws where the power wires attach to the trucks, etc. I had one where the caps weren't charging and that's easy to find by doing a power cut off to see how long the sounds continue, etc.

 Try laying them on their side and attaching power wires to each truck one at a time and see that both carry power. There's also an issue where the neg side doesn't carry to both wheels in three rail on some releases that weren't wired fully. They run better if you can connect your outside rails together or connect the neg on both wheels.

What is signal strength when testing with these engines?  G

GGG posted:

What is signal strength when testing with these engines?  G

I haven't done that check yet G. I would imagine that signal strength is the same for all engines but I guess you're indicating that some engines may see signal strength differently than others. Last time I did a general check I got 7-10 on most of the layout with some 5's where I have multiple switch sections in series. That is where the bad actors tend to act badly the most. Will check that and report back.

Thanks, S

Need to get your track up around 8-10.  Yes an engine is part of the value and engines can have bad reception, especially if wires around signal transformer on PS-3.  So that could be your issue along with some bad sections.  G

I had one that would act up with anything else powered on the track. Track signals 0 to 3, rogue starts, always missed the watchdog signal, etc. G changed the sound file on the board and I put it in  another engine and no more problems other than missing the watchdog signal once in a great while. Even then it just starts in conventional and does not take off. Works for me.

I have a PS3 steamer that does rogue starts each and every time power is applied to the layout.

Conversation yesterday with MTH indicates they are aware of this issue and claim they are working on it.  They do not know if it is a hardware or software issue and there is no solution for this problem at this time.

Dave

Ok, so this is really helpful. Based on the feedback so far it would seem that the stronger the DCS signal the less likely you are to have problems in operation. As Dave points out though I have seen the rogue starts occur even on track sections where the signal strength is should be pretty good. Per GGGs recommendation I could do a more thorough check on signal strength but I'm not sure how I would raise it in the weak sections. My layout is a set of bus wired blocks. Not really STAR wiring so I feel fortunate to have the level of signal strength I'm getting but it wouldn't hurt to do a more thorough survey. What really interests me is the "wires around the signal transformer" as mentioned by G and by Joe. That tells me that the signal wires are picking up noise off of the toroid coil? If that's the case why not a signal shielding fix? Next step for me is to pop the shell off the GP9 that's bugging me and have a look.

Just some "food for thought"...

I own approx. 20 PS3 engines consisting of steamers, diesels and electrics, both Rail King and Premier. The signal strength on my layout is consistently all 10's.

I have never had a PS3 engine start up unless I issue to it a startup command, or turn on its track power after the watchdog signal on its TIU channel has come and gone.

FWIW, the above applies to my approx. 80 PS2 engines, as well, both 3 volt and 5 volt models.

I do not believe that my rogue starts are do to signal strength.

I have 8-10 all around.  And I only own one offending unit.

MTH has an issue with the PS3 units (not all, only some) which I'm sure makes it more difficult to isolate the problem.

So at this point for we end users.............it is hit and miss with a PS3 regarding this problem.

Now........PS2 - 3 volt..........rock solid and the battery issue is not a concern to me.

I have one 2003 engine still on it's first battery.  I know I should probably change it.........just curious to see how long it will go!

Dave

Dave,

MTH has an issue with the PS3 units

The "rouge start" issue is both rare and trivial. Just press Startup or Shut Down. Problem solved.

Hi Barry,

I have two rogue starters and that really doesn't bother me from a practical standpoint. But I've painted myself into a corner on signal strength. My layout is 50% Atlas switches and these are heavily wired for continuity -- drops on all 3 legs. And I haven't been good about keeping track of my wiring plan unfortunately. At the time I did the most of the wiring in a block/bus pattern for best power contact in conventional mode and succeeded. When I switched over to DCS I was pleased to see high signal strength but have since made additions that may have degraded the signal in some sections. If I find low signal strength in an isolated section (5 for example), is it straight forward to improve it by a point or two?

Thanks

I don't have star wiring, as defined by some on the forum, and have no signal problems.  One of the supergurus on the forum is also wired like me, and has no problems.  Just make sure you have a heavy enough gauge feeds (hot and common) and only only hot drop per block.

Barry

I doubt MTH would have R&D working on an issue that was "rare and trivial".

And they advised me they are working on it when I called this week.

When I pay the good prices that we all do for these items, I expect them to work as they should.

Rogue starts are a nuisance..................and were not intended as part of the purchase offered by MTH.

That's why they are working on it.

The eventual solution after all will no doubt be another chapter to your book.

Cheers

Dave

Dave,

I doubt MTH would have R&D working on an issue that was "rare and trivial".

Don't be naive.

It is, indeed, rare and trivial. Further, MTH is "working" on a lot of things, just about all of which have a much higher priority than this little glitch that only requires a single, additional remote button press to work around.

Actually, if an engine starts up and your intention was to operate it, there's no additional button press required. You simply press Startup, as you were about to do anyways.

I cannot imagine a less important "issue" that could occur with a command control model train.

Rogue starts are a nuisance..................and were not intended as part of the purchase offered by MTH. That's why they are working on it.

If you say it's a nuisance, then you have an extremely low threshold for being annoyed. However, be assured that you've been told that "they are working on it" only because it's a minor defect, not because it's anything that is truly important. What is actually the case is that it's on a list of known defects that will be addressed in the next major release of PS3 engine firmware.

The eventual solution after all will no doubt be another chapter to your book.

The eventual solution will be absolutely transparent. You will simply upgrade the Chain File in your PS3 locomotive. If it makes it into my book at all, it will be something like this:

"If your PS3 engine starts up in conventional mode when track power is applied, make sure that you have the latest Chain File for the engine installed."

Believe me when I tell you that, if I so chose, I could easily list several things that MTH is actively  working on that have a much higher priority than this so-called "issue".

Callling a PS3 engine that has this behavior a "bad actor," truly insults all "bad actors".  

SooLine Dave:  When you say "starts," do you mean moves or just acts as if the startup button is pressed? I have one PS3 (factory diesel) that occasionally starts up about 30 seconds after power comes on in its block, but it does not move so I don't lose sleep.

Barry,

I don't think you are being fair to those of us that have this problem. I can't call a problem where an engine starts up in forward or reverse at full speed "trivial" just because you don't have the problem. One time it smashed into another train in front of it. GGG changed the chain file and it still had problems with anything else powered on the same track. You act like we are making this up. Some of us would like to turn on power before we pick up the remote.

John, if a loco starts offmoving, I would try a conventional reset.  PS3 locos seem to be more prone than ps2 to get locked in a conventional direction.

John,

I can't call a problem where an engine starts up in forward or reverse at full speed "trivial" just because you don't have the problem. 

I agree completely!

I would call what you're experiencing a real, live problem that has to be addressed. Whether it's your engine or your layout I couldn't say without seeing things first-hand, however, it's for-sure a real problem.

However, I wasn't referring to your problem at all. I was referring to Dave's issue where his engine would occasionally start up when power was applied and then just there as if it missed the watchdog signal. The solution to that is just press Startup or Shut Down.

That issue is, indeed, trivial.

RJR

My European Nord Steamer acts as follows on a rogue start each and every time power is applied to the layout:

Lights usually come on immediately but not always.

In 15 seconds or so ........lights, sounds and smoke are on.

In this state the engine is completely unresponsive to any commands from the remote including "start up".

I must press "shut down", and wait for the engine to completely shut down.

Now I can press "start up" and the engine will start up normally and perform normally until the next power up of the layout.

I'm quick to perform the above because I'm concerned about the possibility of the engine just "taking off".

One may not be so bad behaving this way (although I still find it an unnecessary nuisance)....imagine several behaving this way on one layout.

MTH is wise to be working on this, as they advised me this week when I called.

Better to find a solution now while PS3 is still relatively new.......than later, with thousands in the marketplace and many more behaving badly.

Dave

Thanks, Barry. I have two PS2 engines, three PS3 engines, and a Williams underneath for grandkids, so I don't have a large roster to fall back on if one has issues. After swapping boards with a donor PS3 and GGG's expertise, it is back to acceptable behavior. It misses the watchdog once in a great while, but does not take off like before. All my other engines have no issues, so it is not my layout that caused the rogue starts and track signals of 3 and below. I should not have had to spend another $100 or so in addition to the $350 I paid for it to make it right, if  it is not something I caused. That is my complaint.

RJR, it was really difficult to do the conventional reset because it always started up moving, and until you do the reset you can't get it in neutral. It would take ten to fifteen attempts at slow speed to get the reset, and it still had no track signal with a lighted dummy or another engine on the track. Frustration doesn't describe things very well.

When I did the conventional reset.  I placed loco near the transformer, and held it with one hand while I applied 12 volts and did the whistle/bell sequence with the other.  With the TIU out of the circuit, you should not have any track signal.

RJR,

I just meant that after the successful conventional reset the engine still had track signal problems with anything else on the track. Nose to tail with another engine that put out all 10s, this one would be at 1 to 3.

Here's a status report.

I removed the shell off of one of the offending engines. A PS3 GP9. If there was a toroid coil in there I couldn't find it. Even if there were there was no moving the giant rats nest of tiny wires piled up on top of the power boards. Compared to what I typically find under the shell of a PS2 this is a real eyesore and can't be good for signal integrity. That said most of my other PS3's are trouble free. Acting on a personal email tip from David Minarik (thank you Dave) I replaced both ground wire screws (painted black) with some unpainted screws I had available. I moved a pinched wire out of the way -- this was to one of the forward lights -- and got the non working smoke unit working quite nicely. I had to do this with another PS3 diesel and the solution was to replace and repack the wick around the resistors.

On the track so far so good but because the problems were intermittent time will tell. Although it did run like a dream this morning and no rogue starts; trivial or not.

Regards and thanks to those who provided helpful information.

S

Scott T Johnson posted:

Here's a status report.

I removed the shell off of one of the offending engines. A PS3 GP9. If there was a toroid coil in there I couldn't find it. Even if there were there was no moving the giant rats nest of tiny wires piled up on top of the power boards. Compared to what I typically find under the shell of a PS2 this is a real eyesore and can't be good for signal integrity. That said most of my other PS3's are trouble free. Acting on a personal email tip from David Minarik (thank you Dave) I replaced both ground wire screws (painted black) with some unpainted screws I had available. I moved a pinched wire out of the way -- this was to one of the forward lights -- and got the non working smoke unit working quite nicely. I had to do this with another PS3 diesel and the solution was to replace and repack the wick around the resistors.

On the track so far so good but because the problems were intermittent time will tell. Although it did run like a dream this morning and no rogue starts; trivial or not.

Regards and thanks to those who provided helpful information.

S

It is next to the relay and the 8 pin connector.  Small one.  G