I was wondering if anyone else has had issues with couplers not staying closed (and solutions), but so far it seems that is limited to me.
Not unusual. I have one of those Vision Line tenders where one of the couplers opens every time the power is applied to the track...haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.
I have purchased quite a few MTH (Proto-2 and 3) and Lionel (Legacy and TMCC) engines over the past several years. I also purchased one Weaver and one 3rd rail engine. I have noticed a significant increase in issues with new engines right out of the box with all of the manufacturers. I have also noticed that the likelihood of problems is higher with steam engines.
The worst situation I have experienced involves an MTH Proto-3 PRR J1 2-10-4. Absolutely beautiful engine - probably my favorite engine - when it runs. Problem is that the darn tether will not stay connected. I have had it back to MTH twice and have had a few very experienced and helpful colleagues from the industry assist, but to no avail, as the tether continues to disconnect. One time it disconnected in the middle a very long tunnel and we had all we could do to get it out. One example of an issue with a Lionel Legacy engine I have experienced involves a PRR M1A Mountain, with a flickering cab light right out of the box, which indicates a smoke issue, that I am sending out for repairs.
I have also had all sorts of other problems with Proto-3 engines, such as consistent issues with anomalies like the headlight goes off when you turn the smoke off, as well as other similar issues with features on the engines, requiring constant engine resets. At this point, I would much rather buy a Proto-2 than a Proto-3 engine. Far fewer operating issues.
The Weaver B&M P-4 (TMCC) would not operate out of the box and the 3rd Rail PRR FL-9 would not run smoothly because of the bizarre flanged wheel design. Frankly, at this point, when it comes to new engines, I am always apprehensive when I put a new engine on the track for the first time.
My experience has been far better with rolling stock. I have purchased a lot of Lionel, Weaver and Atlas, as well as a few MTH freight cars over the past several years. I have had no issues with them, other than one Lionel PS-1 boxcar that had a truck that had a tendency to derail and an MTH diecast hopper where the coupler shattered.
I have been in N scale for many decades, I have only ever had about 2 issues over maybe 70 engines from the better mfg's. I just started getting some O again due to my grandson and wanting to ease the old eyes bit. I agree the stuff is great .... if it works. I am now wondering who the good manufacturer's are in O scale. I had one MTH Rail King engine that needed smoke unit repair right out of the box which luckily a repair person is in my area. I bought the operating signal man Premier caboose and it did not light out of the box. I figured I would remove the shell and check it out. A wire was off and reattachment fixed it. The signal guy only works with a transformer setup which the ad does not call out. There is apparently no quality checking at the source. Having been in the Navy and worked with ship yards in the Far East I learned that those folks can do the work very well if you stand over them and watch them. Otherwise good luck. The issues folks mention here seem to bear that out 40 years later. All you have to do is put something on a powered track and you can tell almost all issues in under a minute. I picked up a Christmas caboose last year ( hard to find alone ) because my shop had to send the MTH engine back as it would not work and they sold me the caboose from the set. If these folks want to charge pretty good dollars for this stuff they need to supply quality. Sending it back to them as a few mentioned is costly and for new stuff should not happen. I have become aware of the story now and am becoming a discriminating buyer.
From Robetejr, above:
"The most frustrating has been my 3rd rail experience"
Yup. Welcome to my world.
"I also bought a 3rd rail NYC T3a engine that will not shut off with the shut off command so it stays on and runs down the battery. I’ve tried setting my legacy remote to CAB-1, TMCC, every option. Everything else works fine with the remote it just won’t shut off. Yes I tried a reset with the code. At this point I just live with it."
Why do you have a battery in the loco anyway, if you run it under TMCC/etc? It's only needed for conventional/sound drop-out issues.
Tiffany, above:
"You not the only one here but just really bad quality control in China these days. I have a Sunset 3rd S.F. 5011,older model of 2002 era. and didn't have all those problems like yours is having but my engine came from Korea so I guess quality control was better in Korea than in China."
I bought (new) that 2002 loco also; I pulled it out of the wrapping (part of the problem), the pilot fell off - at the beam - on the table, and one of the side rod rivets was sheared off. I fixed both (epoxy on the pilot and I simply made a rivet). Then the TMCC would not get a signal (my others did; and I was newer to TMCC than I am now); sent the tender back to California for the antenna problem - and it came back just as non-functional. I finally fixed it myself. So, after electronic and mechanical repairs it was functional. Whaddya want for $1000+ - a working loco? Korean or not, it was a Fail, until I fixed it.
MONON_JIM posted:And people just keep buying.
I had bad luck too with the Chinese Lionel, but guess what, I stopped buying! Back to postwar and back to enjoying my trains! It baffles me why some keep purchasing these new hi tech trains despite the quality control issues and failures right out of the box.
Casey Jones2 posted:Good morning and welcome to the "Let's Slam the Forum Sponsors Sunday!!"
Actually, I just have no clue what this even means?
irish rifle posted:I have purchased quite a few MTH (Proto-2 and 3) and Lionel (Legacy and TMCC) engines over the past several years. I also purchased one Weaver and one 3rd rail engine. I have noticed a significant increase in issues with new engines right out of the box with all of the manufacturers. I have also noticed that the likelihood of problems is higher with steam engines.
The worst situation I have experienced involves an MTH Proto-3 PRR J1 2-10-4. Absolutely beautiful engine - probably my favorite engine - when it runs. Problem is that the darn tether will not stay connected. I have had it back to MTH twice and have had a few very experienced and helpful colleagues from the industry assist, but to no avail, as the tether continues to disconnect. One time it disconnected in the middle a very long tunnel and we had all we could do to get it out. One example of an issue with a Lionel Legacy engine I have experienced involves a PRR M1A Mountain, with a flickering cab light right out of the box, which indicates a smoke issue, that I am sending out for repairs.
I have also had all sorts of other problems with Proto-3 engines, such as consistent issues with anomalies like the headlight goes off when you turn the smoke off, as well as other similar issues with features on the engines, requiring constant engine resets. At this point, I would much rather buy a Proto-2 than a Proto-3 engine. Far fewer operating issues.
The Weaver B&M P-4 (TMCC) would not operate out of the box and the 3rd Rail PRR FL-9 would not run smoothly because of the bizarre flanged wheel design. Frankly, at this point, when it comes to new engines, I am always apprehensive when I put a new engine on the track for the first time.
My experience has been far better with rolling stock. I have purchased a lot of Lionel, Weaver and Atlas, as well as a few MTH freight cars over the past several years. I have had no issues with them, other than one Lionel PS-1 boxcar that had a truck that had a tendency to derail and an MTH diecast hopper where the coupler shattered.
Irish,
I had the same exact same problem with the MTH Proto-3 PRR J1 2-10-4. Right out of the box the crappy "wireless tether" kept dropping out and causing the loco to go dark and stop abruptly, it couldnt make it once around the layout without doing it. It went back to MTH a few times for waranty repair, and then to a friend who is an MTH tech, and the problem was never resolved...I had to sell it "as is" for a big loss.
No more MTH "wireless tethers" for me.
And this whole time I thought I was the only one... Since entering the hobby the other year, 80% of my new modern electronic items went in for repair once and 40% of them twice. One product good out of the box and going strong is the Legacy 990, but I requested to have it tested at the hobby shop before shipping.
I thought maybe it was shipping or packing type issues (before assuming it was janky out of the factory), from all the banging around it goes through from China -> Manufacture -> Distributor -> Dealer -> Me, but used items from the forum seem great. After reading comments above on quality control issues it got me thinking how could I minimize getting a defective product out of the box when I get it. I don't really have one besides testing it before it ships to me, but it's very unlikely the shop will have another one especially with BTO. I hope on the factory side they can get the workers there to take passion and care into what they do or get better training to minimize these problems.
Only time will tell. I cross my fingers for all of us. 
I thought maybe it was shipping or packing type issues.
In my experience, shippers are very rough on the goods they carry. Our sponsors know this too.
Shipping and packing issues are still the sponsor's responsibility. The video documenting the 1992 production of the Lionel scale Hudson shows the company using specialized test equipment to ensure that their packing is adequate. Don't the sponsors do that any longer?
As Elementdude195 notes: the stuff we individuals ship to each other usually makes it OK.
Luckily I haven't had many problems with modern MTH and Lionel trains. My biggest problems are with my two K-Line engines. My RS-3 has a defective smoke unit, defective cruise control, and my GG1 truck side frames disintegrated.
A good friend of mine sent an old MTH GP9 engine back to the factory for an upgrade. That was nearly 10 years ago. They have no idea what happened to it. It's like it never even existed. They offered him some kind of refund or exchange for the engine (don't remember what) but he wouldn't accept.
I am getting into this thread late but must somewhat agree that many of the products received, new Locomotives are arriving with issues. (While I am so to speak letting out some Frustration, I will say that, do to Lionel Eliminating most of its Real Dealer Network and Taking the Competitive Edge Away from them, and allowing a few large dealers to basically Call the Shots, it's been a bit disappointing with these changes) That being said, when I make orders now, BUILT TO ORDER, I have my dealer check out the engines before I take ownership. I like my small dealers and they will remain my Main Source... Personally, I truly like the higher technology of today . Shipping is probably our biggest Enemy causing defects in our new products. So, accept things as they are, the issues will be resolved. Now let's go have fun running our trains.
Do other hobbies like RC planes, cars and drones have these problems ?? They are all shipped from the same country on the same boats and trucks.
Of all the things I have purchased, ham radio, electronics, etc. from Asia, trains have been the most dysfunctional right out of the box.
By the way, I got a bad 990 right out of the box once...jumbled display on the handheld.
D500 posted:From Robetejr, above:
"The most frustrating has been my 3rd rail experience"
Yup. Welcome to my world.
"I also bought a 3rd rail NYC T3a engine that will not shut off with the shut off command so it stays on and runs down the battery. I’ve tried setting my legacy remote to CAB-1, TMCC, every option. Everything else works fine with the remote it just won’t shut off. Yes I tried a reset with the code. At this point I just live with it."
Why do you have a battery in the loco anyway, if you run it under TMCC/etc? It's only needed for conventional/sound drop-out issues.
Tiffany, above:
"You not the only one here but just really bad quality control in China these days. I have a Sunset 3rd S.F. 5011,older model of 2002 era. and didn't have all those problems like yours is having but my engine came from Korea so I guess quality control was better in Korea than in China."
I bought (new) that 2002 loco also; I pulled it out of the wrapping (part of the problem), the pilot fell off - at the beam - on the table, and one of the side rod rivets was sheared off. I fixed both (epoxy on the pilot and I simply made a rivet). Then the TMCC would not get a signal (my others did; and I was newer to TMCC than I am now); sent the tender back to California for the antenna problem - and it came back just as non-functional. I finally fixed it myself. So, after electronic and mechanical repairs it was functional. Whaddya want for $1000+ - a working loco? Korean or not, it was a Fail, until I fixed it.
Hello D500
I am sorry you had problems back in 2002 with your new Sunset 3rd rail engine but I didn't have any of those problems and mine was bought used !!! This engine was a customer return (must be) and they repaired for whatever the problem was but don't know what (didn't care at the time) so it was listed in the "boneyard" section of the Sunset 3rd rail website and I bought it home took it apart and gone through it and found no problems except minor things like striped threads of the valve gear hanger on left side but that was a easy 10 min fix, no siderod problems, few adjustments here and there, drivetrain is new so is the Pittman motor. It was lot better than a lot of H.O. brass engines I had in the past and was of the LEAST amount of work required to make it trouble free. It is still trouble free today 4 years later ( purchased it in 2012). What more can I say ? Knock on Korean wood !!!! I guess..........
Tiffany
I have engines from all the manufacturers: 3rd Rail, Atlas, Lionel, Weaver, K-Line. I have only had minor problems with a few engines. The TMCC in a Weaver didn't work and it had to be returned, for example.
Most of my friends buy but do not ever run their engines. The engine goes from the box to the shelf. Therefore, manufacturers get very few complaints about their engines not running in comparison to the actual number sold as long as the engine is cosmetically OK. The TCA guidelines do not even consider whether or not an engine is working. Perhaps that this is the reason that manufacturers do not see a big quality control problem with their products?
I am wondering why some people are having consistent problems with the newer engines. The only thing that I can think of is that some people may be using older transformers instead of a modern transformer such as a Z-4000 or the new Lionel transformer. I tell anyone to who buys a new command control locomotive to only run it with a modern transformer. The newer engines seem to run best when powered with a modern electronic transformers. I know electricity is electricity but this is my experience.
NH Joe
Dunn'o what to say about 3-rd Rail.
Peopled rave about how great they are. How great the boss is. Now we hear maybe not so great when problems occur? And problems occur frequently!
3-rd Rail engines have been BOTH my best and my worst engines! As I understand it, they are basically just TMCC electronics dropped into brass shells. Thus they SHOULD be basically Lionels as far as dependability is concerned??
I can't say. No Lionels here . . . yet. But, 3rd Rail? Hit and miss for sure. Can't say why.
Strange thing . . . when I posted about the unreliabily of these things quite some time ago , I was replied to "in what universe" are they unreliabe?" I was a newbie at that time and the reply knocked me back a bit. Not so unsure of myself now. These products are woefully imperfect!
C W Burfle posted:I thought maybe it was shipping or packing type issues.
In my experience, shippers are very rough on the goods they carry. Our sponsors know this too.Shipping and packing issues are still the sponsor's responsibility. The video documenting the 1992 production of the Lionel scale Hudson shows the company using specialized test equipment to ensure that their packing is adequate. Don't the sponsors do that any longer?
As Elementdude195 notes: the stuff we individuals ship to each other usually makes it OK.
I was very impressed by the large, heavy duty plastic cradle that Atlas uses to box their engines. The bottom of the engine I bought (RS-1) was screwed into the plastic cradle. The sides of the plastic are high enough that it essentially protects the engine on three sides. It's deep enough to protect the detailing on the top of the engine. Once secured, the entire cradle goes into the styrofoam product box, which in turn goes in a shipping box with peanuts. Because the cradle's design isolates the engine from touching the packaging, Atlas avoids the problem that some manufacturers might have of parts breaking or bending as a result of the packaging itself. It was brilliant and I felt confident about shipping my engine back and forth -- twice.
FWIW, where I work we have an onsite industrial designer who creates and then tests shipping containers by mailing them all over the world. And, so our wildly creative and often oddly shaped holiday gifts arrive as intended -- and that's a software company! (Too bad they never pickup on my hints to give us Lego and train stuff. :-)
TRRR
Terry Danks posted:Dunn'o what to say about 3-rd Rail.
Peopled rave about how great they are. How great the boss is. Now we hear maybe not so great when problems occur? And problems occur frequently!
3-rd Rail engines have been BOTH my best and my worst engines! As I understand it, they are basically just TMCC electronics dropped into brass shells. Thus they SHOULD be basically Lionels as far as dependability is concerned??
I can't say. No Lionels here . . . yet. But, 3rd Rail? Hit and miss for sure. Can't say why.
Strange thing . . . when I posted about the unreliabily of these things quite some time ago , I was replied to "in what universe" are they unreliabe?" I was a newbie at that time and the reply knocked me back a bit. Not so unsure of myself now. These products are woefully imperfect!
Hello Terry Danks...........
Remember this much, the "WHOLE" world is imperfect !!! The world is FULL of problems more or less of it ,even model trains made of brass or die-cast metal or plastic have problems ,minor or major !!!!!!
Tiffany
jim pastorius posted:Do other hobbies like RC planes, cars and drones have these problems ?? They are all shipped from the same country on the same boats and trucks.
I didn't take the time to sift through all the posts, but a search for "defective" on RCDiscuss.com (just one example) nets 247 posts. Some thread titles make it obvious, some not so much. There's even one on the second page titled "Junk or Bad Luck?"
---PCJ
Terry Danks posted:Dunn'o what to say about 3-rd Rail.
Peopled rave about how great they are. How great the boss is. Now we hear maybe not so great when problems occur? And problems occur frequently!
3-rd Rail engines have been BOTH my best and my worst engines! As I understand it, they are basically just TMCC electronics dropped into brass shells. Thus they SHOULD be basically Lionels as far as dependability is concerned??
I can't say. No Lionels here . . . yet. But, 3rd Rail? Hit and miss for sure. Can't say why.
Strange thing . . . when I posted about the unreliabily of these things quite some time ago , I was replied to "in what universe" are they unreliabe?" I was a newbie at that time and the reply knocked me back a bit. Not so unsure of myself now. These products are woefully imperfect!
I agree about being imperfect. I have a friend that bought a Timken 4 aces steam engine. Waited a long time to receive it. He was in the middle of constructing a layout. He brought it to my layout. He unpacked it, set it on the tracks, followed instructions for first time operation. The engine made it around my layout 1 time. On the second time it stopped dead. All sounds,lights worked from the cab1. Could hear the motor ramping up and down as it should. Locomotive would not move. I figured whatever was attached to the motor shaft came loose. I so much wanted to open up the loco and fix it myself, but didn't. So we spend 25 minutes packing this thing back up per 3rd rails instructions. This happened on a Saturday. Called 3rd rail Monday. Service dept wanted me to reset the loco. No way was I going to unpack that again. Told him I could hear the motor ramping up and down when turning the red knob on the cab1. Got discouraged, so instead sent it to one of the few recommended service people 3rd rail recommends. Got it back fixed but picked up a ticking noise that wasn't there before. This time I fixed it myself. Sure is a beautiful loco but He says He's learned his lesson. He just doesn't need the hassle of sending a new loco back for repair especially after waiting for so long.
I myself have had a lot of issues with MTH and Lionel. I wont buy any more 3rd rail. Very upsetting having to send these locos in for repair. I have greatly reduced my buying due to QC issues. Notice how prices keep going up and up and up catalog after catalog? I know this is a rainbow and butterflies forum, so not really bashing,just telling my experience. By all means if you buy and buy and buy and never have any issues, you should keep going. Just my 2 cents.
I just got into the "electronic age" two years ago when I added a large overhead layout, separate from my larger table layout. I've purchased four new MTH PS3 engines for the overhead, and one MTH and three Lionchief Plus engines for an expansion on the table layout. I can add two things to this thread:
1.) Of the five MTH's, two had to be sent back because they didn't run. The guys at Trainworld in Brooklyn were great at swapping them out so I wouldn't have to wait three months for MTH repairs. I don't mind spending a few bucks to ship them back and it's fair that we both should incur expense for bad luck. Good business, because I have spent thousands with them and appreciate their terrific cooperation. All my MTH's now run like champs. Likewise and most recently, I had one of the Lionchiefs that wouldn't run. Same thing, this time from Mario's. Again, they were great to work with and handled the situation perfectly. Like most, I tried to fix them myself, sent them my stories, they checked and confirmed my results. These two dealers will continue to have my patronage.
2.) I also have several problems with couplers opening on their own. Mostly, just because their pins are somewhat loose. It's an easy fix, but still maddening. Last week I received a four pack of boxcars from Menards. The FedEx post took 8 days, when it usually takes 2-3 days. Who knows what was going on with that box in that time. All four boxcars had wheels that were out of the mounts (easy to snap them back in), one truck was completely loose from its bracket (easy to open and re-seat it). Two other trucks were bracketed too tight to turn properly. Two coupler sections tore completely out of their sockets. So....I could fix two of the cars and have emails to Menards about swapping the two really bad ones for new ones. It's Monday, so I'm hoping for an answer today. I have about 30 cars from Menards and have never had a problem with any of them. I plan to buy more very soon, assuming it's just my turn for bad luck.
Jerry
JerryG posted:I have about 30 cars from Menards and have never had a problem with any of them.
I've thought about this, too - why do Menards products not seem to have the problems that others do? My conjecture is a combination of the following:
I have no particular insights into Menards operations, so I may be way off.
So how do heart pacemakers/Medical and DOD seem to avoid these kinds of problems? Two things; design and quality control. I guess they are just lucky in those industries, or maybe they prepare differently. If you factor in the added cost of bad quality and repair, then the actual cost of improved design and front end quality control is not that high. It is a change of mind set however. The cost of bad quality is estimated to be 10x higher at each successive operation from component to board to sub assembly to final assembly. It takes a bigger than 10x jump from final assembly to customer when you factor in the loss of what is called "goodwill" in the business world.
It just takes one competitor making high quality products to force the others to change. Look what Honda and Toyota did to GM, Ford and Chrysler in the auto industry.
So how do heart pacemakers/Medical and DOD seem to avoid these kinds of problems?
If toy trains were priced similarly to medical devices or department of defense devices, nobody would purchase them.
I empathize with everyone who has had issues with items out of the box.
For me this thread really brings into light the value of a local hobby shop for those of us who have one within a reasonable driving distance.
Engines can be tested before taking delivery and you can pick it up in person. Certainly this is worth passing on any savings you may get from buying elsewhere.
- Greg
Leapinlarry stated earlier “Shipping is probably our biggest Enemy causing defects in our new products” and Greg’s post points out the value of the local shop, and I can’t agree more.
I have to chuckle a bit when I read these kinds of postings, as I have NEVER had a problem when I purchased through my local hobby shop (Americas Best in Itasca, IL) as every engine was tested BEFORE I took it home. In all honesty, none of the engines failed on the counter, so they were good to go before I left the store.
Of the few problems I have had, ALL were purchased on-line. Some electrical, some mechanical.
Do I pay a bit more going through the local guy? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but I for sure don’t have the time or money to keep shipping items back and forth to get them fixed after the purchase.
So for all the people who are looking for absolute best price, good for you, because I think it will end up costing you more in the long run.
Charlie
The increasing complexity of today's catalog offerings, the scarcity of local repair stations and the frustrations and cost of shipping back and forth to the manufacturer all spell bad times ahead for our beloved hobby. The trains from 1990-2005 from both MTH and Lionel seem more trouble free than all the new gizmos like whistle smoke etc. In addition, the current generation of young people are computer oriented. They are not "tool guys." So, they refrain from fixing stuff themselves. I live in a northern suburb of Chicago. The nearest qualified service person for both Lionel and MTH is in Milwaukee, a 90 mile one way trip. Add to the above the prices in recent catalogs and you can easily understand why dealers don't stock much of the new trains but depend upon sales of new "old" merchandise. Bottom line: If the major train companies want to stay relevant they must provide better local service. If they refuse or can't then I fear the current generation will be the last major group to enjoy our hobby.
C W Burfle posted:So how do heart pacemakers/Medical and DOD seem to avoid these kinds of problems?
If toy trains were priced similarly to medical devices or department of defense devices, nobody would purchase them.
Conversely, with member's buying habits, once train makers start selling cheap Chinese pacemakers, you'll all be preordering them even if they kill half of you.
turbgine posted:The increasing complexity of today's catalog offerings, the scarcity of local repair stations and the frustrations and cost of shipping back and forth to the manufacturer all spell bad times ahead for our beloved hobby. The trains from 1990-2005 from both MTH and Lionel seem more trouble free than all the new gizmos like whistle smoke etc. In addition, the current generation of young people are computer oriented. They are not "tool guys." So, they refrain from fixing stuff themselves. I live in a northern suburb of Chicago. The nearest qualified service person for both Lionel and MTH is in Milwaukee, a 90 mile one way trip. Add to the above the prices in recent catalogs and you can easily understand why dealers don't stock much of the new trains but depend upon sales of new "old" merchandise. Bottom line: If the major train companies want to stay relevant they must provide better local service. If they refuse or can't then I fear the current generation will be the last major group to enjoy our hobby.
Here's the "life-cycle" of defective Lionel merchandise. They teach these circular things to my 6-year old in school: There are essentially no service stations left. So you bring your broken engine to your Lionel value added dealer. Being a nice guy, he swaps it out for you. Then he either bears the cost of repairing Lionel's defects himself (buying Lionel's parts-more on this later), or it sits gathering dust on a shelf in the back room for months. Then, at some point, it gets shipped back to Emory, Heartland or whatever other distributer. Then they eventually dump it back on Lionel's doorstep. Lionel says, "oh yeah!" here's some more junk to break down for parts. So they give it to some guy with a screwdriver and he breaks it down, sorting the pieces into bins. Then they take all these pieces in all those little bins and sell them. They sell them at high prices. That $500 engine transforms into $1000 or more in parts sales. So, instead of being punished for selling defective merchandise, they receive enhanced profits. If service stations were fixing stuff everywhere, Lionel's parts sales would suffer!
AS mentioned previously, I think some of these problems go back to the design of the product then throw in some poor quality control(or non-existent) and mix it up with rough handling and we get the results.
Not really, CW. Like I said in my post, the actual cost is nearly a wash. We don't need DOD traceability or life dependent criteria. We could get by with something lower than cellphone quality. Can you imagine the outrage if cell phones had the out of box problems discussed above. We're talking about a handheld computer that can take pictures and make phone calls, oh and fit in your pocket, take significant abuse and still keep working. And toy trains are not subject to hacker problems or system dependent battery problems, so they have some advantage.
Would one manufacturer be able to dominate the train market with an out of the box high quality reputation? Look at how people line up and pre order (BTO?) the apple products. Some of their quality requirements are ridiculously insan, but we and the Chinese both found a way to meet them. A higher market share of the toy train market would allow lower costs and a better negotiating position with suppliers. I've been at this for over 30 yrs.
Remember the impression you had in the 50s and 60s when someone said "Made in Japan". Hmmm, not that way anymore thanks to a change of mindset (courtesy Mr Deming).
And I also recently took something out of the box had had the trucks disintegrate in my hands. They were both boxcars.
Better read this quick before it gets deleted. Lot of that happening nowadays.
I STILL like American made !!
Greetings Everyone,
Even if you have your new engine tested at the LHS, there is still no guarantee it will continue to function as it is supposed to. 
I had a personal experience whereas the dealer tested my Brand New engine, (not gonna divulge the manufacture because they all are guilty of this), at his shop and it worked flawlessly. I get it home and it doesn't even make it around my (small ) layout and Kaput, Lights Out. It ended up going back to the manufacturer 3, (yes, 3, count 'em) times before it was finally corrected. 
Oh well, so it goes. 
Chief Bob (Retired) 
WE don't need cell phone quality so they are making TOY quality !! Do you really think they are as concerned about quality as the American consumers are?? If you do, you are dreaming. If they wanted the extra quality you would have to pay for it. A company, a large one, was importing stainless castings from Korea and there was a 25% rejection rate, The customer would scrap them, they just ordered 25% more than they needed. It was still cheaper than buying US made. Better get used to buying junk from overseas.
From what I'm reading 3rd Rail doesn't have a great operational reputation and I have to agree, but they do produce terrific looking scale locomotives. I bought my first 3rd Rail engine in 1994 direct from Mort Mann, a PRR I1sa with the long tender. It made one lap around the track and stopped , but the motor ran fine. After taking it apart and finding the main gears in the gear box were pinned together and the pin sheared, I replaced it with a piece of drill rod. On the test run it did the same thing and that's when I found that the piston connecting rods were so short that they could come out of the cylinders and jam, if the steam chest was not positioned properly and allowed to swivel sightly on its mounting screw. I also found that 3rd Rail engines require very careful handling because of the delicate details as compared to MTH and Lionel diecast models.
I have a number of 3rd Rail models, but they are in an enclosed display case where I and others can look , but not handle or operate.
Yes agree with some of the comments. Had a flaw with a 3rd rail Big Boy as the Tmcc didn't work properly. Same for a Lionel U boat diesel, the strobe malfunctioned soon and the front coupler is finicky.
Had lots of smaller N scale stuff , Bachmann DCC didn't work ; Dcc plug in boards are $30 bucks & the engine itself is $130, it's frustrating but not a huge financial deal for me to replace either, with O it's a big deal usually hundreds of dollars to get repaired. I have neve had an issue with N scale Kato engines, now made in China too.
Bachmann a few years back had lots of quality control issues I had a ON30 that seemly feel apart as the mechanicals were so cheaply made and the engine wasn't cheap. I hear Bachmann spectrum gas better quality but I'm weary.
Overall I still enjoy the modern digital trains I just wish quality control issues were handled with more owner, company, management oversight.
Lenny the Lion posted:MONON_JIM posted:And people just keep buying.
I had bad luck too with the Chinese Lionel, but guess what, I stopped buying! Back to postwar and back to enjoying my trains! It baffles me why some keep purchasing these new hi tech trains despite the quality control issues and failures right out of the box.
Hello guys and gals
I have stopped buying too but I purchased older Williams (before the Bachmann take over) and they are really good. I took chance in buying the older Railking PS-1 NW-2 switcher from 1999 era. and got it for good price new in the box. Bought a J&W BCR ( my first one) but was defective and it didn't messed up my PS-1 board after putting in a replacement J&W BCR (now my second one) the boards are fine I guess I luck out. I have older Williams F-3's from 2008 and this engines ABA set have some Q.A issues ,wheel and gear slop but was a easy fix with Mylar washers and cut a "V" slot in and slip it in between the truck blocks and back of the wheels, it took care of the slop this will prolong the life of the gears and ran really well. If you want trouble free trains ,"Postwar" is a way to go and there is plenty of parts for it too.
Tiffany
Now that most of the electronics have a way of keeping track of the mileage, wouldn't it be great if the warranty was like an automobile and the manufacturer gave buyers a warranty based on mileage.
Tiffany posted:
"If you want trouble free trains ,"Postwar" is a way to go and there is plenty of parts for it too. "
If the "postwar" trains are trouble free, why would you need extra parts? Come to think of it, why were there so many service centers during the postwar period if the trains were so trouble free?
Charlie
Seacoast posted:... Overall I still enjoy the modern digital trains I just wish quality control issues were handled with more owner, company, management oversight.
Candidly speaking... I think the importers are taking the approach of "managing the risk" rather than driving for better quality. After all, investing in QA costs money up front.
It's much easier for the importers to roll the dice (so to speak) -- hoping there's still a HUGE segment of the market that doesn't run their newly purchased trains immediately. So if there are quality issues lurking, nobody's the wiser for it until enthusiasts build their dream layout in 5-10 years. And by then, things are out of warranty and the importers get to charge $$$ for the repair.
For the most part, we're living in an era with a tremendous amount of new product hitting the street in any given year. But overall, I suspect importers are pretty much taking what the overseas factories give them. The tail is definitely wagging the dog. Take for example Lionel's rotary coal tipple. Didn't we just hear that none of the factories wants to sign up to build it? What's at the root of that? Price? Complexity? Tooling? Suppliers access to electronics? Whatever the case... I'd hate to be a product manager in that kind of environment. Seems the factories are telling the importers what they want to build -- rather than importers prioritizing the projects that should be built. 
David
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