basement humidity

Richie C. posted:

Are there some brands that are quieter than others ?

Yes, there certainly are. The Frigidaire unit I bought last year is the most quiet dehumidifier I have ever owned, but of course it does make some noise when running (very little noise if the fan is set at its low setting). I have no problem watching TV or listening to music or the radio in the lounge area adjacent to the train room. I leave the dehumidifier on 24/7 in the warm weather months here in Ohio. No big impact on my electric bill. 

Allan, does the fan run continuously, or does it cycle on and off?

bigkid posted:

Lou1985 posted:

How wet/damp are your guys basements getting? I have a house built in 1956. The basement has tile over the concrete floor but no drywall (you can see the brick). It's about about 4 feet below ground (9 foot ceilings as the basement extends above ground level, common in Chicago). It has forced air heat/air conditioning. Basement is about 65°-75° all year with 50%-60% humidity (like the rest of the house). I have no rust issues. Track/wheels on the trains never rust. Heck I left some bare sheet metal from a project down in the basement for a month and it never even got surface rust. I figure as long as basement conditions are close to the rest of the house a dehumidifier is a waste of money. 50%-60% humidity shouldn't make your trains rust. Plus at that level static electricity is limited, which is a plus around electronics. 

A couple of comments (not about the post per se, but about humidity/what works on it)

1)basement humidity is dependent on a number of factors, one of the big ones is the nature of the property the house is on. Below grade rooms tend to have more humidity then the rest of the house (moist air, among other things, kind of tends to sink to the lowest level), but also a lot of people (like myself) live in places with high water tables, and that can cause moisture to seep into the basement. 

2)In many houses, the basement is not heated or cooled. In the case of the poster I quoted, they have forced hot air in the basement and a/c, and that is likely why the basement is kept in that range. Force hot air heat, as I know only too well, dries out the air (the furnaces put out water, that is sent to drains), in winter my house if I didn't have humidifiers would be like 25-30%. Likewise, air conditioners don't just cool the air, they also dehumidify it (many room air conditioners have a de-humidifier mode that basically mimics what a dehumidifier does). When the air is cooled down in the A/C it can hold less humidity, and the water condenses out of the air (ever look at a window a/c, with the water dripping out? Condensation from the air. So basically the heat and a/c are doing what a dehumidifier would do. 

50-60% humidity is fine, but few basements will keep that without some method of dehumidification or bringing in drier air, whether it is a dehumidifier, am air exchanger that brings down drier air from the rest of the house, or an hvac system working there.  In winter I don't have to run my dehumidifier, between the lower temperatures and likely the drying of the air from the heat in the rest of the house, it stays around 50%, I only have trouble when it warms up in the spring-summer-early fall months. 

I was under the impression that most people who built layouts in their basements had a basement with some kind of heating and cooling. If their basements are not climate controlled then I can see the need for a dehumidifier. Most of the time if a basement is somewhat finished and/or has heating and cooling then it should be comparable to the rest of the house. Lacking that, yeah, the conditions in an unheated/uncooled space are going to be all kinds of weird.

I have a Frigidaire like Allen and I won't buy anything else. You do have constant fan noise but none of the compressor vibration and groaning of other brands I've owned over 25 years.

Lou1985 posted:

I was under the impression that most people who built layouts in their basements had a basement with some kind of heating and cooling. If their basements are not climate controlled then I can see the need for a dehumidifier. Most of the time if a basement is somewhat finished and/or has heating and cooling then it should be comparable to the rest of the house. Lacking that, yeah, the conditions in an unheated/uncooled space are going to be all kinds of weird.

My basement does have heating and cooling, but it's still a basement and still needs a dehumidifier. Truth is, I closed (left just a tiny bit open so some air gets through) all the basement vents for the summer because the air conditioning was actually working too well and it was too darn cool. When I had the heating/cooling fellow out for the regular six-month system checkup a month or two back, he recommended closing the vents in the basement for the summer period. Said the ductwork running through the basement adequately cools that area without the vents needing to be open. My dehumidifier cycles off and on adequately.

About 15 or more years back we purchased a unit called Humidex, it was pricey but is very economical to run. I keep it set at 50% runs a lot thru the late spring and summer, less in the fall, and not at all in the winter. this unit mainly does the air exchange mentioned previously. We have been very pleased with it.

Ray

I live in Illinois, and I've found the only way to keep my basement dry is to leave my vents open a little bit all the time when the the central air conditioning is running. That keeps my basement dry and works better than my dehumidifier ever did. 

As a wood flooring contractor if there were to be a cupping claim on a job and the inspection report reading did not fall within the mandated 35% to 55% RH range the claim was denied.

Solid wood flooring was not warrented for below grade installation.

If you have forced air AC and a basement but no dehumidifier, here is a sure fire way to reduce the humidity in the basement, and maintain an EVEN temperature throughout the entire house, basement, first floor and even the second floor if you have one.  

If you don't have a return air grille in the basement, you will need to add at least one, but two would be better.  If you have the basement subdivided into multiple rooms, you will need a return air in each room.    If there is a door to the basement, you can leave it open, undercut it or add a transfer grille in the door so air can flow through it from the upper area of the house to the basement.  This is key to the operation,

Close off all the supply vents in the basement.  Close off all the individual room doors throughout the house.  If you have ceiling fans, run them all and set the direction of rotation to obtain a downward direction.  Run the main fan of the AC system in manual, on high speed 24/7.

Within 24 hours you will notice a significant difference in your entire house.  The individual room temperatures will usually be within 1 degree of being the same throughout the house.  The basement will be drier and more comfortable than it has ever been.  

Now that you have achieved temperature equilibrium throughout your house, keeping it that way will be achievable only if you can get everyone to get on board with the program.  I was only successful for one season.  

"The house is too dark.  The dogs can't see out the windows.  The fans are always blowing.  Doors should remain open.  It's a safety thing."  I finally gave up.

The idea is sound.  It actually works.  If I lived alone, my house would always be evenly balanced, temperature-wise, all year long and I would be completely at peace.  But life is never easy, and I still need to run my dehumidifier and let the thermostat cycle the system like everyone else.

So be it.

Some homes have return air vents in every room other than the bathrooms and kitchen. Others only have one large return in a common, central spot like a hallway. Something to consider when thinking about whether to close doors.

I have a return in the basement as well as a supply vent. The return is always wide open. The supply vent gets closed in the summer, otherwise the basement is too cold. If I leave the basement door open, it also gets too cold in the basement.

What is good for one house may not be good for another. (We have returns in each room).

CW, what you say about single or central return air grills is certainly true of older homes.  Since the advent of home air-conditioning homes have been constructed with a supply and return for each room (exception bath rooms and kitchens).  Given what you mentioned,  the alternative would be not to close the doors tightly, but to leave them slightly ajar.  The premise behind the idea is to create a system that forces air back down the stair to the basement there-by making more of the conditioned house air help to condition and reduce the humidity o the basement.

How old is "older"? I've been in homes built before central air conditioning was common that had returns in each room. And I've been in homes built with central air that had a single central return.
I've long suspected that building with one central return was a cost savings.

I never felt it necessary to force cold air down into the basement. Cold air is heavier than warm air and will naturally flow down.

BradFish1 posted:

I have a Frigidaire like Allen and I won't buy anything else. You do have constant fan noise but none of the compressor vibration and groaning of other brands I've owned over 25 years.

They have the attached Frigidaire unit on sale/rebates at Lowes. I'll take a look. I'd guesstimate the square footage of the finished part of my basement (including the train room) at about 1,000 sq. ft.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Frigi...t-In-Pump/1000490413

Richie C. posted:

They have the attached Frigidaire unit on sale/rebates at Lowes. I'll take a look. I'd guesstimate the square footage of the finished part of my basement (including the train room) at about 1,000 sq. ft.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Frigi...t-In-Pump/1000490413

I believe that's the same 70-pint unit I have. Didn't get it at Lowe's, but it appears to be identical to the Frigidaire I bought.

Thanks, Allan.

C W Burfle posted:

How old is "older"? I've been in homes built before central air conditioning was common that had returns in each room. And I've been in homes built with central air that had a single central return.
I've long suspected that building with one central return was a cost savings.

I never felt it necessary to force cold air down into the basement. Cold air is heavier than warm air and will naturally flow down.

CW, without getting into "rivet counting" I would venture an opinion that prewar (WWII) houses would have no return air in every room,  After the war houses generally had at two return air (one for the first floor and one for the second floor) but they were not necessarily tied directly to the furnace.  This process utilized the basement as a "plenum", a term common in HVAC that can loosely defined as an open space used for air conveyance.  

And, I am not proposing to introduce "cold" air directly into the basement.  Rather, the cold or hot air form the furnace (depending upon the season) is mixed with the house air and returned to the basement through the plenum space (the whole house) down the stairs  and into the return air  grilles in the basement.  This has the effect of indirect heating, cooling and dehumidifying the basest space.  Sine the house use is continually moved and recycled throughout the entire house, including the basement, the end result will be a much more even mean temperature throughout the entire house.  

It does work.  Sure, each house may need little alterations to the set upend operation, but the end result can ALWAYS be attained.

  Mitsubishi makes the smallest quietest AC units I've seen, and I've seen a lot. Thier effiency and reliability was there too. A dehumidifier is a special cooling unit, closer to an ice machine than normal ac where ice over is bad because it hinders airflow. Dehumidifiers mostly run a tad cooler, collect moisture via condesation then reverses high and low pressure sides between the two heat exchangers in a short melting and collection cycle. 

There isn't always a "need" to force air, but it can yeild a better constant in comfort thru increased air circulation and possibly SAVE money by lowering compressor or heat source uses. E.g., my bother dropped his overall utility costs for 2 floors& basement by running his HVAC fan on low 24/7 and adding a stairwell ceiling fan, also on low 24/7. The thermostat still activates heat or cool.

The object's in an area (including walls floor etc) each have an ideal temp based on their construction, they retain heat and shed it as well. Air to object, Btu needed to begin a change from ideal in an objects temps has a mean curve too; so it is usually most effectient to hold a consistent temp.(and moisture content if porous) More air circulation would promote a consistent. But it is a fine balance, the 24/7 fan here does no good in my basemented ranch. Same year builds 57&58. He has more sq.ft. I have more square ft of basement, both finished.  I also had an N.C. Aunt that had "holes in the floor", beautifully grated 2'x2' holes of an Inn, 3 floors in a hillside. It flowed well enough for a century without a fan on wood, coal, oil then gas. But again a single ceiling fan (stairwell) helped costs overall and dried the cellar.

   As metioned, system design, regional, and even building specific results vary but you can't find out without trying either     CW your home experience to date can't be denied, but I'm betting Bob did some HVAC work, research, or had a good long talk with a local pro

   I rarely run air conditioning and the basement is too large for an effective drying without fans raging . Too much fresh air condensates on the thick concrete walls too easily. I've had track be down there for 50 years without rusting, only to have pieces rust away in the sunlight upon moving to a shelf.

  As mentioned posts back the temp. difference of sun lit air is more of an enemy to me as that is the final straw in the fight against condensation; the killer. 

  I e , temperature differential between object and air is the most crucial factor, humidity % be d***ed if you stop condensation the major battle is won.

Adriatic posted:

 

  but I'm betting Bob did some HVAC work, research, or had a good long talk with a local pro

Well, over my 50 year career, I did talk with many professionals, and they also talked with me,  I was closely connected you see.  I spent my time working in, developing and practicing procedures in an industry known as testing, adjusting and balancing heating ventilating and air conditioning systems.  

Home ac systems can be boiled down to a few criteria that will work 99% of the time.  It takes 15 BTU's of ac capacity to cool the first floor of a two story house, and 30 BTU's per square foot for the second floor.  AC systems need to deliver 400 CFM (cubic feet of air) at 55 degrees F. per ton (12000 BTU's) through the ventilation system.   These are the basics.  There are many nuances that can and will affect the system performance, and exotic control systems to help increase creature comfort, but if you just need somewhere to start, this is it.

I can't stress this enough.  Constant air flow will be the most efficient method to help maintain an even temperature throughout the house.  It is number one.  

I have kept my basement train cave at 60% humidity for over 20 years with no problems here in Ohio. I do keep a fan circulating though just to keep the air moving.

Bob Severin posted:

Adriatic posted:

 

  but I'm betting Bob did some HVAC work, research, or had a good long talk with a local pro

Well, over my 50 year career, I did talk with many professionals, and they also talked with me,  I was closely connected you see.  I spent my time working in, developing and practicing procedures in an industry known as testing, adjusting and balancing heating ventilating and air conditioning systems.  

Home ac systems can be boiled down to a few criteria that will work 99% of the time.  It takes 15 BTU's of ac capacity to cool the first floor of a two story house, and 30 BTU's per square foot for the second floor.  AC systems need to deliver 400 CFM (cubic feet of air) at 55 degrees F. per ton (12000 BTU's) through the ventilation system.   These are the basics.  There are many nuances that can and will affect the system performance, and exotic control systems to help increase creature comfort, but if you just need somewhere to start, this is it.

I can't stress this enough.  Constant air flow will be the most efficient method to help maintain an even temperature throughout the house.  It is number one.  

Ive dabbled in industrial air balancing myself, grabbing the job whenever I could really. I liked the variety in the many variables seen from place to place on new design and on old it was usually just figuring who in an area upset the balance by changing the airflow nearest them without consulting building managers. ...save your company some dough and agitation, leave the thermostats and vents alone till you ask. Wear a sweater or skip a layer, balancing a large area pleases the masses, not the fussy

You guys have more experience than I. I only operated a manually controled heating / cooling system for a 2,900 seat theater that was built around 1930. 

My points about room returns and closing doors is still valid.

C W Burfle posted:

You guys have more experience than I. I only operated a manually controled heating / cooling system for a 2,900 seat theater that was built around 1930. 

My points about room returns and closing doors is still valid.

 

CW, I think we are ACTUALLY trying to do and say the same thing.  The OVERALL idea is an attempt to bring the air from the upper levels, that has already been cooled (although it is now mixed and more temperate) and dehumidified to the lowest level, the basement.  When this can be accomplished, the basement will become a bit warmer, but certainly more comfortable and closer to the temperature of the remainder of the house.  

Having return air openings in the basement without any direct supply from the furnace has essentially put it into a  negative pressure situation, hence the house air will fill the void.  The furnace then will utilizing the more humid and cooler air in the basement to recirculate through the cooling coil and the whole system will eventually reach equilibrium.

That should clear everything up for everyone.   

Not only is it running, but I can monitor it from anywhere.   I have a second one that will be installed soon, it also has a WiFi link to keep tabs on it.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not only is it running, but I can monitor it from anywhere.   I have a second one that will be installed soon, it also has a WiFi link to keep tabs on it.

John, may I ask what brand and model you have? I would be very interested in being able to monitor my layout area.

Roger, it's a Frigidaire, but many brands now have WiFi, it's the latest rage.  The other one that's in my old house, (about to come here), is a HiSense, it also has WiFi.  I buy the largest "consumer" models, they're rated at 70 pints/day.  I drain them into the floating basement gap so I don't have to empty buckets.  The second one will drain into the sump.

superwarp1 posted:

Here in western Mass, I have my dehumidifier going 24/7.  I keep it at 50% humidity.   I would go lower but the electric cost would not be worth it.

Same here in central PA.  Humidity isn't a problem during the winter, but during the warm months, it's like the tropics.  I turn on the basement dehumidifier sometime in May, and it runs until October.

I'm in central NC, humidity is getting to be an issue now until mid/late October.  My trains are in my shop which is very tight, housewrap/sheeting/closed cell foam/fiberglass/sheetrock.

I have mini split AC and heat and must keep dehumidifiers running, I like to keep at 40%.  I read all about air exchange and get the principle, one thing no one mentions is pollen.  Air going out from somewhere must draw air in from somewhere.  What do you do about pollen?  It has been so bad this year that there has been a yellow fog at times and after two hours outside, your car looks as if some dumped sulfer on it.  I don;t use a fan or open windows anymore because of this knowing the house and contents would turn yellow inside.w is the pollen kept at bay when exchanging air?

How is the pollen controlled - kept at bay when using an air exchange system.

My train room is attached to the house, on a slab. Moisture barrier under the slab, sealed the slab, and have moisture barrier under the carpet underlayment. I just have the Frigidaire dehumidifier for safe measures. I keep it set at 50% on low. Room is comfortable, no problems have occurred. I keep a small piece of clean raw  steel leaning against a wall on the other side of the layout where no one but me knows it’s there.....that’s my sacrificial test anoid. So far, it’s still clean. No signs of corrosion or staining....so that’s my test...I’m good to go.........Pat

NHVRYGray posted:

I'm in central NC, humidity is getting to be an issue now until mid/late October.  My trains are in my shop which is very tight, housewrap/sheeting/closed cell foam/fiberglass/sheetrock.

I have mini split AC and heat and must keep dehumidifiers running, I like to keep at 40%.  I read all about air exchange and get the principle, one thing no one mentions is pollen.  Air going out from somewhere must draw air in from somewhere.  What do you do about pollen?  It has been so bad this year that there has been a yellow fog at times and after two hours outside, your car looks as if some dumped sulfer on it.  I don;t use a fan or open windows anymore because of this knowing the house and contents would turn yellow inside.w is the pollen kept at bay when exchanging air?

How is the pollen controlled - kept at bay when using an air exchange system.

Residential doesn't usually use a fresh air exchange outside of combustion chambers; mostly only large commercial /industry systems use air exchange on the conditioned air.

The exchange of lots of outside air just puts a heavier load on a small system. It is usually more efficient to not let any air from outside get in .... too bad we can't survive without fresh air.

  The vent at the roof peak grates, eves, and foundation gaps is about it on most homes.

 You can fit a furnace filter mount over vents, just make sure the filter's grade won't resrict the expected flow there. (I.e. are your vents big enough to do it without concern, or are they barely big enough for the home? Big vents can accept a very good filter, small ones would need a looser weave.) With an old hvac system or well sealed area, the amount of fresh air in, is more important (for breathing AND combustion reasons.

There are many good reasons you need be certified to work HVAC. If your aren't sure what, how, and why, make that phone call to a pro and discuss their suggestions. That's usually free

harmonyards posted:

I keep a small piece of clean raw  steel leaning against a wall on the other side of the layout where no one but me knows it’s there.....that’s my sacrificial test anoid. So far, it’s still clean. No signs of corrosion or staining....so that’s my test...I’m good to go.........Pat

Try some steel wool, that's the best indication of any excess moisture.

Even though my basement is modern and climate controlled, my 70 pint LG dehumidifier does nothing for the trapped air that's inside the cabinets against the walls and under the layout where I store my empty boxes. So I still find I have to use DampRid in those areas.

Bucks County Pa - just north of Philly - basement dehumidifier goes on now - Apr / May and runs on and off till Oct / Nov

PS - I also keep a tower fan running in the train run pretty much all year long - just seems to keep the air moving and the basement feels like the rest of the house

I made the mistake years ago to set up in our basement in a house we rented and the basement was constantly wet along the walls. we were only there for about one year, but that all it took for some rust to start appearing on the edges of some of my tinplate and metel locomotives. we moved just about the right time. I was new to the hobby at that time (about 27 years ago). So Please Please PLEASE!!! protect your babies(trains) gentleman. if you have a wet basement get some kind of mechanism to get rid of the moisture in your basement. lesson learned!!

I found that getting air conditioned "air" into a basement, which is not always feasible, but that and a dehumidifier is the key solution. In summer high humidity situations, a dehumidifier by itself will remove moisture and at the same time warm the ambient air, which will hold more moisture and create a continuous loop of moisture entering and overwhelm the unit. The A/C will get the ambient temp down and will help with moisture removal.

Richie C. posted:

BradFish1 posted:

I have a Frigidaire like Allen and I won't buy anything else. You do have constant fan noise but none of the compressor vibration and groaning of other brands I've owned over 25 years.

They have the attached Frigidaire unit on sale/rebates at Lowes. I'll take a look. I'd guesstimate the square footage of the finished part of my basement (including the train room) at about 1,000 sq. ft.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Frigi...t-In-Pump/1000490413

Richie, I clicked on the link you provided, but it says that the unit is "no longer available at Lowe's."

Before I started the basement layout the basement was not ventilated. The previous owners had glass block windows put in with no vent windows. First thing I did was replace the windows with new block windows with vents in them. That right there allowed fresh air to circulate clearing up the mustyness of being closed up for so long. I also bought a dehumidifyer and that helped through the summer months. I set it for 50%. I had drains in the floor so I opted to run a hose rather then have to empty it al the time. I run it from spring to late fall. Once the furnace is on the moisture level drops to 38% to 40% through the winter. I have been working on the basement layout for going on three years now and I have had no problems with rust or dampness. I did find out from the city that the dehumidifyer would add about 10 dollars a month to my electric bill.......Paul 2 

Dave Zucal posted:

Even though my basement is modern and climate controlled, my 70 pint LG dehumidifier does nothing for the trapped air that's inside the cabinets against the walls and under the layout where I store my empty boxes. So I still find I have to use DampRid in those areas.

  Kitchen counter cupboards often employ venting with an offset face between the drawer and door vert. faces. Cabin cruisers and campers sometimes have a circular mesh vent on theirs. A silent running computer fan for a boost. The style is also available in 120-240v, industrial metal frames etc and mounts to a flat with a hole; moves a lot of cfm. Not power hogs either; sippers. Put in on a humidistat if you want to max out efficiency.

I turned on my basement exhaust fan today. Over the Winter I wrap it up and seal it from the room. Now it runs on a timer for the first 15 minutes each hour. This and the dehumidifier set at 60% keep things pretty good. Only issues comes when we get 2 inches of rain in 24 hours.....then I get water in the basement and until I clean it up.....humidity is up. 

My current basement is about 60-65% with no help. The basement I'm moving to is about 80%, so I put two dehumidifiers down there. 

A big 120 pint on the north side which is below grade, and a 70 pint on the south which is where it is a walk-out basement. These are modern units, and have a "basement" setting. That setting calls for 50% humidity levels. The below grade unit runs a lot. The walkout unit runs sparingly. The basement is drywalled and there is no mold on the drywall or floor moldings. After I set up the dehumidifiers, it does smell fresher down there.