Batteries the "bad guys"

The major culprit is engine batteries. Remote batteries, not so much.

Barry, I would love to see things set up so the remote would not start the engine if the engine battery is suspect.

Don't think I agree with you on this one, Marty.  One could go nuts trying to find out why a loco wouldn't start.  And if you can't start it up, you'd have to bypass the watchdog to get it to makes sounds so you could apply the Baryy-sound-duration-test.

Marty, suppose a battery is bad.  Just what untoward result does this cause?  I thought the battery was only needed to keep system up during breaks in AC power or to do the shut-down data write.

By the way, I've started replacing my loco batteries due to advanced age (their's, not mine).

One thing a truly bad battery "may" do, depending on how it's failing, is damage the charging circuit.  Since I've seen a number of engines with bad charging circuits, one could imagine that battery issue could be the cause.

Speculation alert!  I'm just saying that having a bad battery in there is a bad idea, and it's possibly even a damaging idea.  I don't have solid evidence to backup the idea that they're what is damaging the charging circuit, though it's one likely scenario.

With batteries, as with humans, "bad" is a relative term. It may be good enough for some purposes, but not for others.  Your speculation statement waffle is correct.

End any further issues............  just switch over and install a  BCR and you are done with any concerns related to batteries.  I have very few issues these days with any MTH engines running on my roof layout.   Many sit for over a year in between their "turn" and it sure is nice to put it up and just go.

Mark

Mark,

   I agree with you and Marty both, it would be real nice if the Hand held remote control could report via the screen that the battery was low in any particular engine and with the BCR being the ultimate cure, I fully understand why MTH engineered the P3 engines in a similar manner.  IMO the best way to safeguard the old P1 engines is to install a BCR, in every one of them.

PCRR/Dave

Pardon me gentlemen. Why not set up a schedule to change your batteries on a regular basis? All one would need to do is plan ahead.

Granted, this would seem to be a next to impossible feat for some.

HappyPappy:  The question is how often would you do them?  I just had my first 2.4 volt battery go bad.  I installed it in an upgrade in April, 2004.  I hate switching out something before I get my money's worth.  I do note that 2.4-volt NiMHs are available from China (probably same source as MTH uses) at about $3 each.

If you do a 'Info" check on the Remote it will give you a status of the Charging/Battery circuit.  LOW is a bad sign and can mean a battery is not able to reach a full charge.  End of Life.

A battery short or a battery that hold less then 2V (good Battery is about 2.6 to 2.7V) will also be reflected by the audio dropping to half volume after start up.

If an engine does this you should cease operation to determine if the battery is bad, or the processor has gone bad.  Operating like this may effect the battery circuit.

I believe the main cause of damaged battery circuit is a failure that causes the buck circuit to constantly ground the inductor to charge it, which unfortunately cause a hi charge current to flow beyond what the fet can handle.

There are a few reasons how this happens.  Certainly a very weak/dead battery which presents itself as a near short will cause issues/failure.  I have not see many if any shorted batteries in the 2.4V variety.

So what is the life of a super cap.  Capacitors degrade with time, no?

I still maintain for PS-2 3V engines, the battery is as good a device as a super cap.

Now 9V batteries are a whole other matter!  G

GGG,

   Thanks much for the info I never realized an Info Check would show the low battery in the engine, I thought it was low battery in the Hand held remote that was being checked.

Live and learn!

PCRR/Dave

Certainly a very weak/dead battery which presents itself as a near short will cause issues/failure.

GGG, this is why I was asking the questions, in another thread, about the effects of a fully discharged supercap upon the battery circuit.  It is certainly akin to a short, for a very brief period.  I have noted that after installing a supercap, the sound is at the half-volume for a period of time.

I think the answer to your question is that supercaps, of the size used in model trains, haven't been around long enough to demonstrate what is their estimated life.

Given $3.61 each for 2.4 volt batteries, delivered, I calculated my break even point as being many years after both the locos and I will have ceased to function.  Having said this, I am making up and installing supercaps in place of batteries on some locos that see little use.  This is partly due to not having to make sure they get charged, and partly due to a desire to tinker as a retirement mind stimulator.

Dave, somewhere in another thread, Barry recently had a lengthy discussion about the battery info.  Note that GGG mentioned it is status not only of battery, but of charging circuit.  Barry went into detail on this.

Which would you prefer? 1) Install fresh batteries on a regular basis. 2) Have a "shelf queen" or two while you're saving money for repairs. This is my opinion based upon past experiences.

GGG,

I hope you don't mind my shortening your response. It helps to prove that I still remember a few things. It's been twenty plus years since I was involved with ProtoSound.

HappyPappy, Not having any PS1, I don't believe I'd wind up with a shelf queen.  At $3.61/each delivered (I irdered 8) for 800mah NiMHs,* if I did have PS1's I might well do as you suggest.

*www.lightmalls.com, sku LM963R977, "2/3 AA 800mah NiMH rechargeable battery"

For around $5 you can have a 5V 2.5F superCAP that will be the last battery you ever put in, and you don't have to worry about charging issues.

GRJ & GGG are both right, both presenting different sides of the coin.  Operators have to make their own decisions, based on usage of a particular loco, their cost of the components, expected duration of ownership, and life expectancy (loco & operator).  Both routes are sound.

No, it's simply the charging circuit reporting that the voltage coming from the BCR is a bit higher than what the charging circuit is programed to believe is a battery's normal output voltage.

So if a PS3 engine info says battery low (even after it has been powerd up for several minutes), does that just mean the voltage accross the capacitor is a bit lower than expected?

For BCR in PS-2 3V the cap charges all the way to the charge voltage which is 5V. So the reading is high since the programming expects to see 2.5 or so volts.

For PS-3, the early boards did not have any change to the programming so it would read Hi I believe.  I think more recent ones read Low.  I am not sure what they have done programming wise for PS-3.  But a fully charged BCR would theoretically require a Low charge rate.   Just not sure, for PS-3.  As long as Volume normal and plays shutdown sounds when power remove, the BCR charged and is working.  G

For us that still use the original Cab 1 TMCC set up here is a tip I found out if you have engine sounds,directional lighting, horn/bell couplers and boost and it stops after you release the button change batteries in your cab1 for some reason it has enough power to do the rest but not to run the board to run the engine or guess its really read the red button being turned 

Yes I found this out the hard way using two different cab1's with the same batteries  and two different bases and 2 different NYC GP-9's then it was finally suggested to me to check my batteries one was down to 0.3 also this happened when it was cooler down here and the train room/den was cooler than normal.

I’m glad I read this post.  I did an info check on all my engines.  Two PS2s and two PS3s came up with low battery indication.  It doesn’t look like the PS3s are an issue, but even though there were no operational problems; I decided to check the batteries in the two PS2 units.  This is what I found in the first one.  It’s from a 2011 V2 engine.  The battery was made in 2009.  The manual says “The battery is a dry battery that should not leak or cause any damage to your engine.”  But this sure looks like a leak to me.  I replaced it with a 2.4V battery that I bought last year.

 After I check the other PS2 that indicated a low battery, I think I will check everything that I haven’t replaced in the last few years.  I’ll probably go with BCRs after seeing what a 6 year old battery in a 4 year old engine looks like.

I don't think we will encounter any battery about which it can be said, with absolute certainty, that it cannot leak.  I have had several alkalines that were still delivering adequate power, and yet were leaking inside a flashlight or other device.  Any battery can have a defectively-manufactured case, or some internal or external electrical malfunction can cause an increase in internal pressure.  A resulting leak is preferable to an explosion.

RJR – Agree.  I too have seen a number of alkaline batteries leak.  I’ve also seen NiCad batteries leak after sitting in storage for many years.  I just didn’t expect to see it in an engine that was delivered in September 2011.  I guess what we can say with certainty is that this particular battery is definitely a “bad guy”.

Gentlemen,

   I totally agree and I got rid of the batteries all together where ever I could. Why worry about battery problems when a BCR is available, in my case I just replace the batteries a little at a time.  Replacing all the batteries in some of these members engines could be seriously costly.  When I had the larger FasTrack layout up in the office & gameroom, I replaced the batteries with BCR's one or 2 a month and it seemed to go on for about 8 or 10 months, most of the members have a lot more engines than I do however, so switching over is not cheap. I would start off replacing the P1 engine batteries, then go on to the P2 battery replacement a little at a time as the batteries actually need replacing.  So far I have not had any of my BCR's leak, maybe it's not even possible I really do not know.

PCRR/Dave

Funny, but the time must be about right.  I have recently run into 4 engines where batteries caused erratic running, loss of full volume.  No physical damage, engines just wouldn't run right.

Turns out these were engine in the 2004-6 time frame putting the batteries at the 9-11 year mark.  Maybe longer if batteries produced earlier for production use.

These batteries would only read in the millivolts.  If you charged them they would last about 10secs.

So I do think it is about time for battery or BCR swap outs for those early PS-2 3V engines from the 2004-7 time frame.   G

I agree, GGG.  Your analysis is correct  . It was in that time frame that I upgraded all my older can-motored locos to PS2, bought several new locos, and upgraded some 5-volt boards.  In recognition of their expiring life, I just got 10 more supercaps from Digikey, which are price comparable to batteries.  The beauty of PS2 though, is that a dead battery has no lasting effect.

Note that a 10-second duration satisfies Barry's 7-second test, meaning that they still provided acceptable operation.

As an aside, when I first got DCS, in 2002, I quickly realized I'd go bankrupt if I used alkaline in the remotes.  So about 2003 I bought 2 sets of Ray-o-Vac 15-minute recharegable NiMH batteries.  I am still using them, and under load they last just as long as fairly recent NiMHs. (with 4 remotes and 6 grandchildren, I keep 6 sets on hand.)  The beauty of these 15-minute rechargeables is that after hours of running, there's a spare set on hand and, in 15-minutes the dead batteries will be ready to go again.

No, 10 secs total, with power applied!

Probably not a good time to post, (York).  But I am overwhelmed! I didn't even realize the INFO feature was available.  Especially regarding the battery condition.  A few questions if I am understanding this thread correctly......

1. I checked the battery in a PS2 engine using the INFO key, it came back and indicated LOW.  Therefore I need to replace the battery.  I didn't realize this could have a detrimental affect on other electronics.  I thought I would just go in one day and the engine wouldn't recognize, because it lost its identity.  I do notice the volume being cut in about half, and thought this was the volume level that was in the start up configuration from the last time the engine was run.

2. How do I determine what BCR I would need, is it just based on voltage of the battery type being replaced, or are their other factors?

3. Any comments of sources?  I have a lot of engines that will fall in the time frame being discussed.

4. One last question.  I the INFO is showing LOW will it recharge the battery to an acceptable level, or is it that the battery will not take a charge any longer?

Thanks for the information regarding this, I hope I'm not over reacting.

Don,  The issue is PS-2 3V engines built in 2004 to 7.  These batteries can be approaching end of life.  They are at least 10 to 11 years old.

So the problem is not a low battery charge (maybe 2V), the problem is they may be down around .2 Volts.

Easy for you to check the volume by trying to raise it with the remote.  IF it won't the battery is a drain on the Power Supply. Replace it.

BCR are voltage rated.  If replacing a 9V style battery use BCR 1 which looks like a 9V battery, and is actually rated around 10Vs.   If PS-2 3V with AA or AAA 2.4V battery, you use BCR 2 which is very small and is 5V.  G

I don't think there is much data on the life expectancy of super capacitors.

Perhaps you might be interested in trying the SuperCapacitor MTBF Calculator to get an idea of what you're dealing with.

Thanks, GRJ.  Now can you tell me how to use it?  What type of capacitor should I pick from the list?  MAybe you could tell me what it would conclude for the Digikey 2.5 F as would be used in a PS2?

Good to see you again at York.

I haven't actually looked, but download the specification sheet for the cap in question and it should tell you what the construction is.

It was great to see all the folks in York, I met a bunch of people for the first time in person.  Always a good time, but I'm glad to get to sit down more today, my feet were pretty tired!

I downloaded the data sheet (attached) and am trying, so far without success, to figure out the construction.  However, one thing I do note is the statement that:

"Do not place any copper patterns, including the ground pattern, or through-hole via underneath the cell or on the underside of the PCB (if a double-sided PCB is used) as the electrolyte inside the cell, if it should leak, can corrode, short-circuit, the patterns and/or damage other components nearby. Spacing of 1mm or more should be provided in between the footprint of the cell and the nearest copper pattern.
˃ Protective coating of components nearby on the PCB is recommended to reduce the risk of them being damaged in an event of electrolyte leakage.
˃ Provide at least 2mm clearance above the safety vent and do not position anything above the safety vent that may be damaged by vent rupture.
˃ Place cells on the PCB taking into account that the cells may not be completely hermetic during its lifetime. Electrolyte vapor and gases generated during normal use may escape the package during normal operation."

In short, they can leak during their lifetimes.

The sheet also contains a "Life" section, which gives estimates.  Note a 2-year uncharged shelf life & 1500 hour endurance.

The 1500 hour figure doesn't inspire confidence.

Amen, brother.

I have been putting these in my locos, most of which have batteries 8-10 years old.  But, I am leaving the battery/chargeport/PS2board harnesses intact, but unplugged at each end,* in case I find the supercaps unsatisfactory.

*I have been putting on the supercaps a plug to go right into the PS2 board; I leave the charge port in place, so it won't get lost in my workshup.  But on a few, I fitted a plug similar to that on a battery and plugged it into the existing harness.

More info on supercap lifetime:

Lifetime[edit]

 

The lifetime of supercapacitors depends mainly on the capacitor temperature and the voltage applied

Supercapacitors exhibit a much longer lifetime than batteries. Since supercapacitors do not rely on chemical changes in the electrodes (except for those with polymer electrodes) lifetimes depend mostly on the rate of evaporation of the liquid electrolyte. This evaporation in general is a function of temperature, of current load, current cycle frequency and voltage. Current load and cycle frequency generate internal heat, so that the evaporation-determining temperature is the sum of ambient and internal heat. This temperature is measurable as core temperature in the center of a capacitor body. The higher the core temperature the faster the evaporation and the shorter the lifetime.

Evaporation generally results in decreasing capacitance and increasing internal resistance. According to IEC/EN 62391-2 capacitance reductions of over 30% or internal resistance exceeding four times its data sheet specifications are considered "wear-out failures", implying that the component has reached end-of-life. The capacitors are operable, but with reduced capabilities. It depends on the application of the capacitors, whether the aberration of the parameters have any influence on the proper functionality or not.

Such large changes of electrical parameters specified in IEC/EN 62391-2 are usually unacceptable for high current load applications. Components that support high current loads use much smaller limits, e.g., 20% loss of capacitance or double the internal resistance.^[76] The narrower definition is important for such applications, since heat increases linearly with increasing internal resistance and the maximum temperature should not be exceeded. Temperatures higher than specified can destroy the capacitor.

The real application lifetime of supercapacitors, also called "service life", "life expectancy" or "load life", can reach 10 to 15 years or more at room temperature. Such long periods cannot be tested by manufacturers. Hence, they specify the expected capacitor lifetime at the maximum temperature and voltage conditions. The results are specified in datasheets using the notation "tested time (hours)/max. temperature (°C)", such as "5000 h/65 °C". With this value and a formula, lifetimes can be estimated for lower conditions.

Datasheet lifetime specification is tested by the manufactures using an accelerated aging test called "endurance test" with maximum temperature and voltage over a specified time. For a "zero defect" product policy during this test no wear out or total failure may occur.

The lifetime specification from datasheets can be used for estimation of expected lifetime according to conditions coming from the application. The "10-degrees-rule" used for electrolytic capacitors with non-solid electrolyte is used for those estimations and can be used for supercapacitors, too. This rule employs the Arrhenius equation, a simple formula for the temperature dependence of reaction rates. For every 10 °C reduction in operating temperature, the estimated life doubles.

With

• L_x = estimated lifetime
• L₀ = specified lifetime
• T₀ = upper specified capacitor temperature
• T_x = actual operating temperature of the capacitor cell

Calculated with this formula, capacitors specified with 5000 h at 65 °C, have an estimated lifetime of 20,000 h at 45 °C.

Lifetimes are also dependent on the operating voltage, because the development of gas in the liquid electrolyte depends on the voltage. The lower the voltage the smaller the gas development and the longer the lifetime. No general formula relates voltage to lifetime. The voltage dependent curves shown from the picture are an empirical result from one manufacturer.

Life expectancy for power applications may be also limited by current load or number of cycles. This limitation has to be specified by the relevant manufacturer and is strongly type dependent.