Battery backup pump save trains

Battery backups are good, but the generally don't put out the volume of an electric pump.  Don''t get lured into a false sense of security.  Nothing beats a generator.

Last year with THREE pumps running, 2 high volume pumps (Zoeller) and a battery back-up (Simner Ace in the Hole):

4" of water, lost a bunch of boxes because the water wicked through the plywood shelving.  Pumps never shut off for over 28 hours. 

Didn't lose power this time, but I do also have an automatic whole house generator.  It saw me through two marathon power outages over the previous two years, it was well worth the expense.

Doesn't help that this was the situation less than a half a block away:

Rusty

I agree with Rusty. Whole house generator is the best way to go. I have a 110V backup pump above the Zoeller main pump. Make the investment, particularly where you live by the Des Plaines.   Joe

Rusty

I'm familiar with big boat genny's,fuel suppy wise

Curious,whole house genny,how do you keep fuel supplied to it?

Do you store it in a 275 tank?

Do you have to refresh it?,do you use store and start fuel additive in it?

Thank's

Joe

We have one and use a 500 gallon propane tank for the fuel source. This lasts for days as we found out three summers ago. Natural gas is not an option because of our location, but Alan, this would work for you.

Another possibility is a water driven backup system (about $1,000-1,500 locally). When triggered by a float in your sump,  it is powered by your house's cold water supply line.  Not dependent on electrical or gas power, and allegedly almost foolproof .  Very medieval, pre-industrial revolution solution.

In my last house I had a 8 KW generator installed with two commercial grade sump pumps and it was the best money I ever spent.  It ran on natural gas and would auto start if the power was off over 30 seconds.  It would startup once a week to ensure it was ready and to recharge the battery.  Not that expensive and worth the peace of mind.  Next time I will get a whole house generator.  The last one only had the sump pumps, furnace blowers, refrigerators and freezers, plus a circuit in the kitchen on it.

Art

Water pressure pumps illegal in Illinois. Whole house generator maybe.

Propane gas generator. . . do you really need a 500 gal tank?

The battery back up pumps I have used, produce a stream of a weak garden hose. It bought us MAYBE 15 minutes before the crock overflowed. A propane generator with auto start will run $3-$4k for a small one. Small price to pay for a flooded basement where everything, not just train boxes gets ruined. The mold clean up alone pays for the generator. I have a gas job that has an 11 hour tank. Only once in 15 years have I had to shut it down to refill.
From a guy who lost everything from 36" down to the floor 16 years ago- this is my two cents. 

 15KW here and I second that.  The 2 commercial sump pumps too.

I have a natural gas whole house auto start generator, An 11K with all 110v circuits can be installed without changing to larger gas pipes. But a sump pump can still fail so I have the city water do hickey for back up.

Jim

Alan, it is worth the peace of mind that it brings. Where we live, power was out a few years back for almost two weeks due to a severe ice storm. A whole house generator running constantly needs this type of back up.

Actually, not foolproof at all!  The issue with water powered pumps is if the outlet gets plugged, they would be filling the basement twice as fast.

I have a 5.5kw generator and a transfer switch.  I do have to roll it out and fire it up, but then I can run basics like the sump pump, well, septic, fridge, and some lights.  I also have a battery powered sump pump, but that's in case things really get bad!

"I have a 5.5kw generator and a transfer switch."

So who turns this setup on when you're on vacation, or asleep?    At least the water driven system is automated and will work regardless of the owner's presence.  While a blocked outlet is possible, that would affect any system. I'm sure these water pumps can fail, but so can a battery backup (been done, done that, have the messy T-shirt).  A whole house generator is the best idea, but figure on 10-15,000 bucks and you have to have natural gas unless you want a big honking propane tank in your garden.

There's nat. gas engines out there that don't even require batteries or starters...

http://www.arrowengine.com/en/...-10/engines/c-series

This series of engines are on most of our pumpjacks. They're very easy to start by hand (did it twice today), you just gotta get in the rhythm of it.  On the other side of the flywheel is a shaft to stick any size sheave you want. Toss a purpose built generator or electric motor on the other end of the belts and away you go. These engines will run forever with negligible maintenance and not much fuel (I started one from the 50's last week that had been sitting dormant, open to the elements for over 10 years.) so a 500 gal propane tank will last up to 3 weeks.

And they're inexpensive (up here anyhow) because everyone is sticking electric motors on their jacks. It'll run any size generator you want, or just get one ready to go:

http://www.arrowengine.com/en/...w/45-c-series-genset

This is one of the reasons I am moving out of Haddonfield, NJ

There are severe flooding problems in the Borough due to a high water table and inadequate storm water drainage system. The installation of a natural gas backup generator is not an option because PS&G can only guarantee 5 IWC pressure.

A propane tank is an option but these must be approved by the Borough, another issue.

Finally my taxes in Florida will be $9,000 less per year for a house with 30 % more square footage.

My 11K Honeywell was $5395.00.  All 110v lines in our 2 story house are connected to it.

The exceptions are: no 220v outlets and 2 basement wall plug circuits.I figure there are ways to live without the kitchen stove or A/C till power is restored.

My generator's (10KW) hooked up to the natural gas supply.  It does an automatic ten minute self test run every week. 

If the service power drops for more than 10 seconds, the transfer switch drops and starts the generator.  It'll shut the generator off when service is restored.

Sure beats hauling out my 25 year old little portable Coleman generator, running extension cords and filling it up with gas every 2 hours or so.

Rusty

My 12KW Briggs & Stratten was about $6000. installed. The warranty on all the units I looked at state that the warranty is only in force if the system is installed by a licensed electrition . I only have a 100 gal. Propane tank by my gas guy is very reliable, in the past, he has refilled me during a hurricane.

Brad

I have an 8kw Generic that runs on propane auto start etc. like everybody else and it was worth every penny. It saved us several times when home and when away. Runs off the house propane 500 gallon tank. Runs all important circuits in the house plus some of the lights.

Ron

Here in Florida there are very few basements to flood.  The best place for a house in an the top of a "hill".  I use the word hill loosely.  The rain can really come down -- note Pensacola's 24" in a day.  Those in the low areas flooded as the water could not drain away fast enough.

Generator's are quite common here.  My neighbor is testing his this weekend.  I have a 100' extension cord so we're all set for hurricane season.

Jan

Living in California, I have had "basement envy" for as long as I've been into O gauge, at least 20 years or so.

This discussion has helped to ease the pain somewhat and temper the longing.

Thank you gentlemen, for enlightening me.

So glad our pain can bring you some joy!

LOL, there are plenty of dry basements out there too.

This is one problem I don't have, with the trainroom in a finished attic.  But I agree with Gunrunnerjohn, just get a modestly sized generator and transfer switch. It will help alot during power outages in other ways besides the pump.  They are cheap, easy to use and durable with minimal care.  If I had my trains in a basement I would add a gasoline powered pump too, as a contingency.

Trust me, we don't enjoy flooded basements or the power going out for days at a time...

Rusty

I do have a sump pump in my current home, along with a battery backup. I also have a portable generator, and an interface in my electrical system.

The battery backup pump does the job with the main pump fails. Once the generator is rolled out on a power failure, the sump pump is one of the devices it powers.

I keep a spare sump pump and check valve on the shelf.

As I posted in another thread, my last problem was caused by a failed check valve. The flapper broke off and clogged the output. The pump ran and ran, doing nothing. I discovered the problem when the battery backup pump sounded it's alarm as it did its job.

I use a Zoller model 53 submersible pump. I think it has a few advantages.

The pump activates at a water level that is lower than my previous pump (tethered float) required, and it pumps out to a lower level too.

The best laid plans...

3 pumps, two pits, gobs of rain, 4" in the basement.

Didn't loose power during this storm, but it rained very heavily without letting up for over 8 hours. (plus I had a charger hooked up to the batteries so the battery pump would keep running.)

Both electric pumps are Zoeller ejector pumps with 2" discharges.

And a portable generator is of little use if there's no one home to start it.

Rusty

quote:

So who turns this setup on when you're on vacation, or asleep?

Regardless of alternate power sources (generators) an alternately powered backup pump is a good idea. The pump itself can fail.
I had a pump fail while I was away, and came home to a couple of inches of water in the basement. I lost a few items, fortunately no trains were damaged. We had (and still have) an endorsement on our home owner's policy that covered it (HO-3?) because the pump failed. If we did not have a pump, or if it was working and just could not keep up, we would not have been covered.

I have done several sump pump/crock installs.  Each crock gets one 110 system and one 12 volt Watch Dog system.

The most important feature to emphasize is a separate discharge pipe for each pump.

Most jobs took two crocks, two 110 & two 12 pumps.  Back up for the back up.

For my own home I have a 6600 watt Yamaha but am interested in a tri-fuel powered whole house generator.  Do not wish to be dependent on any one fuel.

Today's gasoline does not like storage or fuel systems. 

If the stupid anti coal law is passed, this January we are scheduled to have rolling blackouts.  I understand Generac is build additional manufacturing plants in S.A.

May not come up for a final vote until after the first Tuesday in November.

Charlie, Florida had sink holes.

Northern Delaware has >$2k taxes on a 2k Sq Ft. ranch, safe water table, no sales taxes, four seasons. tt

C.W.

I agree with your choice.

The Zoller pumps are extremely reliable. I use the mighty mate model which will typically  run through 250,000 cycles before failure.

What caused me to buy a generator the last time was a 17" rain and a 12 hour power failure. 

Art

I started this thread because I needed to stop work on the layout to install a battery backup pump. I wondered whom else has done so.

I never realized what group of survivalists we are. It's nice to know that in the event of an apocalyptic catastrophe the trains will survive.