AFTER... I punch holes through the knee wall...

I had to remove similar impediments to movement in my basement.  I put a short sister stud next to the adjacent studs, jacked the 2x6 to remove the load, and used a 4x4 to provide the support.  Since the part I removed was just nailed to the stud that I removed, I venture to say this replacement improved the overall strength of the support.

This allowed me to have access to the storage under these stairs without being a Skinny Minnie and squeezing between the 14" space left.

Since your knee wall was added later, there's an excellent chance it's not even a load bearing wall, hard to imagine how it could be.

I seriously doubt that it is load bearing... but, after 115 years a little assist can't hurt.  I'm totally with you on the Skinny Minnie.  Even if the track fit nicely between the studs... I'll take one out at each end anyway just for comfort.  28" is HUGE compared to 14" and I'm sure the sections will slide in a little easier as well.

One of the things we do as a drill in our local Volunteer Fire Department is bust a wall at floor level, and then crawl thru with your gear and air pack while being blinded with wax paper in your mask. And you think 14" is small try it with gear and an air pack. It can be done and some of us are over two hundred pounds without the gear. LOL

Curtis

If the knee walls were added later (different type lumber is the tip) then I doubt they are structural. I've crawled through hundreds of Cape Cod knee walls in America's first suburb- Levitown NY, in my career as an electrician. None of them are structural, just as others have stated, a way to close off unusable space.

If you need someone with knee wall experience I can help out, as long as I can enjoy that beautiful deck too....are adult beverages available???? Did someone say gumbo?

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

If you need someone with knee wall experience I can help out, as long as I can enjoy that beautiful deck too....are adult beverages available???? Did someone say gumbo?

Did someone say adult beverages?  I'm in!

Bob,  I lived in the City at 26th & 6th for 25 years... just a few blocks from Madison Hardware.  I also had a house in Corneille Estates (Ocean Beach) F.I. (No *NOT* the Pines).   Five Towns!  Now, we are talking Long Island!!!  Ya'll are always welcome here... you get to stay in the *Train Room*!

Looks like I picked a bad day to quit drinking!

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Looks like I picked a bad day to quit drinking!

You're safe, I'm coming tomorrow!

BOOM!!!

Update: To heck with it... wife's in CA ...getting a little nip of bourbon...

Makers or Jack ????

Inquiring minds want to know.

And yes there's a lot more to Fire Island than the Pines. 😂

So happy to know you escaped from NY before its was too late.

Weller, Pappy Van Winkle, Elijah Craig (friends) Makers and Buffalo Trace (me).  I'm not an aficionado... but, I have two friends who are dead serious about their bourbon and seem to hide it at my house.  Kind of like guys who tell their wives that they just paid 200 for a brand new Visionline...

Cameras.  Whats the latest and what do you guys recommend for the tunnel... and, how would you set it up?  I have a plethora of TVs, Monitors, laptops and desktops from 13.1" to 75" so I have the displays covered.  As you can tell I'm not very good at photography.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Kind of like guys who tell their wives that they just paid 200 for a brand new Visionline...

Why did they pay so much?

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Cameras.  Whats the latest and what do you guys recommend for the tunnel... and, how would you set it up?  I have a plethora of TVs, Monitors, laptops and desktops from 13.1" to 75" so I have the displays covered.  As you can tell I'm not very good at photography.

There are tons of inexpensive wireless camera systems on the market. Most are wi-fi capable and are plug and play. Most have apps to connect to a smart phone, tablet, etc. Look for something that has good night vision range since the space will be dark most of the time. Even a baby monitor system would work.

Quick google search

Actually, when running, I'd have lighting back there, most night vision cameras won't give you the range to see all that's going on.  Some inexpensive LED lights will give you lots of light and just sip power.

Truthfully, I'd also probably have a camera at each end, it looks like that's at least a 20 foot run.

Thanks to Everyone for your insights and support!!!

I guess it's time to get started.  Tomorrow (Thurs.) is a rain day here... so, I'll open up the portals and the first 'easy' access entry point for my fat butt.  I've decided to put this entry point just to the right of the benchwork and use the full height of the knee wall rather than under the benchwork.  You can see the supply side to the air handler to the far right.  I can trim the access panel so that it passes the wife test.   I'll then go into the eve area, add some temporary lighting, measure, mark and get my material list together.

The MPC Chessie to the left is one of my test Locos... it has been severely crashed, derailed and flown off the benchwork beyond count ...it just keeps running!

Here is the 1910 Singer 'Red Eye' that goes on the 'control table'... which I have to return to my wife ...especially after she made the curtains for the benchwork.  (I thought it was a 1916... but, the serial number dates it to 1910)

Beauty Eh! Gorgeous..... (ZW and layout as well)  thanks for the share.. SINGER craftsmanship at its best...

Dennis that is a good idea, the older you get the more you want to take it easy on that body. Shown here is what I used, a door flush with the wall one on each wall. Used a couple of screws on the top to hold in place, also a great place for storing all that stuff we collect.

Dennis, that sounds like a good plan.  The Chessie engine is a good choice for test runs as you build and fine tune.

The Singer is a beauty!  My wife and older daughter would be quite impressed.  Both ladies now have a "collection" of sewing machines, some old, but not that old.  It reminds me of my grandmother's older machine, that my uncle and aunt claimed when Grandma passed on 45 years ago.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Dennis, that sounds like a good plan.  The Chessie engine is a good choice for test runs as you build and fine tune.

The Singer is a beauty!  My wife and older daughter would be quite impressed.  Both ladies now have a "collection" of sewing machines, some old, but not that old.  It reminds me of my grandmother's older machine, that my uncle and aunt claimed when Grandma passed on 45 years ago.

Mark,

I bought the Singer in upstate NY about 30 years ago for 5.00.  I had to purchase about 20.00 in parts... unbelievably all parts are still available today ...and, it runs flawlessly.  You can sew seven layers of denim, leather, doilies or fine silk with it.  It's pretty cool.

Great deal!  All our sewing machines came from thrift stores or older relatives.  Our daughter is pretty good at fixing them.

Good Morning.  OK... the access cutout has be made and 'initial' measurements taken.  I didn't remember 'everything' when I put in the air handler so there is good news and not so good news.

The not so good... I had forgotten that the floor in the eves ends at the supply for the air handler i.e., open rafters with insulation.  I will have to add three sheets of plywood to the top of the ceiling joists so I will have a nice smooth surface to roll around on.

The good... the floor of the apartment is 7 1/4" higher than the ceiling joists below (6 1/2" after I add the plywood floor) and from the eve side of the knee wall it's 8' to the eve.  This does not change the height from rafter to rail... however, it does give me considerable more roll around space than I thought I had and a lot less head banging!   Winning!

Headed out for materials.  Hold on,  It's still dark out here... maybe another cup of coffee first.

Dennis. all in all it sounds like it should work out well!  Yes, get that extra cup of coffee!!

It sure isn't an easy job but I think in the end you will find it well worth the effort.

Ray

Nice to hear there's more space than you expected back there, it will aid in the construction.  It also might allow for a nice set of yard tracks next to the O72 loop.   Since you are already going to have lights and a camera, perfect time to add more functionality!

Tip: Use screws and not nails to put down the plywood floor.  It won't creep up and you won't be pounding loose dust and paint hammering above the ceiling.   Don't ask me how I know this.

Break time.  The first and most difficult piece of plywood floor is in... sort of.  I have to make a couple of cutouts in it which is fine.

What I'm ticked off about is the electricians, plumbers and carpenters who never removed the outdated or unnecessary utilities and materials... SPAGHETTI!   There are braces... bracing NOTHING!  Well, it's coming out now!  I am now QUADRUPLE HAPPY I'm doing this as this house is more likely than not to be passed on to one of the kids.

If you ever have work done ask the ...dare I say craftsman ...to please remove any outdated or unnecessary utilities and materials

dennis the  Irritated!

Mark, I'm actually having a third cup... which I almost never do!

Ray, It's certainly going to be all of what I expected and then some... but,definitely worth everything that is put into it ...twice over!

John, It probably will not be until tomorrow or Saturday... but, I will put in the widest sub-flooring/underlayment for the track that it still comfortable... I may be able to get one additional spur/siding in.  And, Yes on the screws... the 115 year old timber is like Ironwood.

back to it guys... l8r

Pouring cats & dogs but the floor is in as is the temporary lighting and the first portal is opened up.  I removed one stud for the portal and one stud for the access panel.  I haven't screwed the floor down yet as I still have a lot of crap to trace, pull out and discard.  I need to find my knee pads as well as it's not creeper ready yet.  It could have been a whole lot worse.  Whew!  Nap time.

Dennis, you deserve a nap after all of that!  I am glad you are making progress and the initial idea still seems to be quite workable.

For all the ingenious home repairs Dad made over the years on his circa 1888 house, he never fooled much with electricity.  I knew there was some knob and tube wiring in the basement along the rough hewn timbers since I was a boy, but had assumed power had been cut, and it had been abandoned in place.  Once he and Mum were in a personal care home, I did some investigating and discovered it was still live!!  The wiring to the sunporch ( 2 lights and 1 outlet) had never been replaced!  Well, I fixed that before we sold the place last December.  Oh, I got a licensed electrician to replace the fuse box with a breaker box as well.

Dennis, you got right after that one, no moss growing under your feet!

Today:  Removed all extraneous utilities & material, fastened floor to joists, re-positioned HVAC flexible duct, opened portal 2 and played with lighting a lot.  If I'm not to sore when I wake up tomorrow I'll put in the bracing for the track, trim & set the large access panel.

I'm trying to keep things picked up and clean... but it builds a little each day.  It seems like I have about 50% of my tools in the attic now.

Portal 1:  Pretty rough... getting there slowly.  O72 is 22 1/2 degrees... so, I should angle the portal the same or at least a little, maybe 10 to 15 degrees?

Angling the Portal allows the tunnel to be considerably widened within!  I love having these eureka moments...

Getting there slowly??  I was thinking you accomplished quite a lot today.  Do as much as possible before soreness and stiffness set in and you have to take time off! 

Dennis, Looks great,  you have come a long way the worst is over.

I used a building to hide the actual hole and yes angled it

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Angling the Portal allows the tunnel to be considerably widened within!  I love having these eureka moments...

I'd angle it to match the 22.5 degree angle.

Thanks for conformation on the angle guys... it's nice to know my eureka moment wasn't a fantasy!  Nice work Ray and Super Photos!!!

Today:  Made feeders (16… some extra).  Installed/leveled track brackets.  Man!  That took a minute!  Cut and placed plywood for track (19' on the nose).  It's not installed... just placed ...I'm going to lay the track on it and mark it for the feeders.    I don't trust myself enough to go 'strictly be the numbers'!!!   I'll then pull it and assemble 'outside' the knee wall... then, install.

I have to eat... and, maybe take a nap!

dennis the tired

you did a lot today and deserve a break

Ray

I don't trust myself with just the numbers either.  Though tiring, taking it out and back in will be worth it.

I know you've committed to your plan:  But here is a thought for people in the future.

This room was unfinished (over the garage) when we built the house.  Every house I've seen puts a 4' high wall here.  I guess they want the wall there so you can place furniture against it.  I don't like the way those walls make the room look smaller and waste all the space behind it.

I knew this was going to be my train room and I wanted the room to be as open and big as it could be/look.  So I didn't add the knee wall like everyone else.  I did the drywall all the way down the ceiling to about 8" off the floor.  For the 24 years we lived there I was very, very happy I did that.  It made the room look so much bigger.  Maybe mainly visually - but bigger!

A big thing to understand in anyone else's case is:  If your knee wall is structural or not.  In many homes:  It is.  The knee wall is supporting the weight of the roof above it and cannot be removed.  In my case, and many, many cases:  They are not there for structural support.  They are only there because someone thinks it makes the room more useable.   

.

Case in point, we finished this loft space, and the knee-wall behind this is most certainly structural!

On the storage side, this one on the right is also structural.  Yes, still a little messy back here, be we're working on it.

The wall on the right side, OTOH, is just there to separate the room from the storage area.  It's not structural, except for holding up the sheetrock and paint.