Beginner Question

Yes you can run the MTH n Lionel engines in conventional from a z4000 MHH transformer or a Lionel ZWL, would not recommend Lionel ZW as the circuit breaker is a 10 amp and can burn up the electronics in the electronic engines. they make fast acting breakers but the about approximately $200.00. Ross switches are the best but not cheap, what size engine do you want to run Bigboy large engines or small steam engine and Deizels ! you can run by Remotes there expensive!

Alan

Adam, the short answer is yes, all of the engines you can get from Lionel, MTH and Williams will run in conventional mode. If you just want to pull cars in a loop then Williams by Bachman (WBB) are a good choice. These are good looking strong pulling engines without frills. Some of the later models have a an engine sound as they run. The selection is not as extensive as MTH or Lionel but there are some good deals on eBay. There are also early model Lionel and MTH engines that are pretty much conventional only.  For the time and money you are going to invest as a minimum, you really should consider investing in a control system like MTH DCS. There is a wealth of feature control that you don't get in conventional mode. I'm an MTH guy mostly so that's my preference. Others on the forum can fill you in on Lionel.

Ahh the getting old………first it was HO then O finally G scale the new O…lol. But back to the topic. You can use a modern O scale transformer to operate any locomotive it will give you basic sound control. While I agree on the original ZW not being a good choice, it could work with a few upgrades.

Also, their is no need to go new, you can buy a good used transformer from reputable sellers such as Tainz……….or Justrains of Delaware just to name a few. Also try to find a nearby store you can build a relationship ship with. For me in Fla it’s Zinskys trains.

Only get a modern ZW or Z4000 built to protect modern electronics in the evet of a short. So the ZW-C, with the external power bricks or a ZW-L with all internal power or the MTH 4000Z would give you plenty of power and protection. The ZW-C would be a less expensive option to buy used on eBay or from Tranz. Usually it comes with 2 bricks, which with using the supplied jumpers will power the whole thing and for the layout you are describing would be enough and have room for expansion if needed later.

Cute baby by the way

Thank you all for the quick responses. I really appreciate all the info and look forward to more.

I’m leaning toward Gargraves track and Ross switches (only for a long siding or two which will hold an entire train). The power supply was my biggest concern.

I’m in full-bore collection mode right now with an emphasis on Wabash and N&W. I really like this community. Seems to be significantly less bickering and insults than in the HO world.

i welcome any advice and look forward to being in this forum.

Adam

@Alan Mancus posted:

Yes you can run the MTH n Lionel engines in conventional from a z4000 MHH transformer or a Lionel ZWL, would not recommend Lionel ZW as the circuit breaker is a 10 amp and can burn up the electronics in the electronic engines...

The Z4000 and ZWL have 10 amp breakers as well.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

Only get a modern ZW or Z4000 built to protect modern electronics in the evet of a short...

There is nothing to protect electronics in these models that 100 year old transformers do not have. None of them have transient voltage suppression to clamp voltage spikes, which do the damage.  Breakers are current limiting devices only.

The "ZW" usually means the 250-275 watt postwar- 1960s Lionel transormer.  These do not have adequate circuit protection for locomotives with PC boards for sound etc.  The ZW-L is the biggest one Lionel makes, but ALL of the current Lionel transofmrmers have good circuit protection.  The GW180 at about $ 280 has good power, a conventional control (lever) and can be upgraded to  more wattge with an additional power brick.  O Trians generally draw about 2 amps pulling a train- that translates into about 36 Watts.

@Mike Wyatt posted:

but ALL of the current Lionel transofmrmers have good circuit protection.

No, none of them have transient voltage suppression to clamp voltage spikes, which do the damage.

In the O Gauge Railroading magazine there is an advertisement by Tinman3Rail that sells refurbished postwar ZW transformers. I believe he adds improvements in  circuit breakers and horn and bell control. You might check them out online.

@ADCX Rob posted:

No, none of them have transient voltage suppression to clamp voltage spikes, which do the damage.

I don't know. You're probably right and seem to understand circuitry a lot more than I really do. I know enough to be dangerous but I will say this: It seems to me that the modern ZWs, the current ZW-L and the one before that have modern high speed circuit protection. I actually have recently seen a nice Legacy locomotive internally smoking from a derailment on a layout powered by a post war ZW (wasn't mine). Meanwhile I have run my layout for about 17 years with modern ZWs with countless derailments and shorts that would take the entire layout down with no circuit damage to locomotives or rolling stock with sounds. Some kind of circuit protection is going on here that did not exist before because previous generation transformers were designed before the electronics in trains today was even imagined.

As you do more investigating, you'll find basically 2 major command/control systems: Lionel's Legacy and MTHs DCS. While both are command/control, unfortunately they are not compatible out of the box. While Lionel's Legacy can ONLY run Lionel's Legacy (plus conventional), the MTH DCS can - with a few additional pieces of hardware run BOTH the MTH DCS and Lionel's Legacy - to some extent (as well a conventional). to me, by buying the MTH DCS system, you can save some money and not need 2 different systems. Here's some info on the MTH DCS: https://mthtrains.com/DCS

One of the things I like about the MTH system over the Lionel system, is ease of use. With the MTH system I just put the loco on the track and turn on the DCS and it will normally find the loco. With the Lionel Legacy system it gets a bit more complicated because you have to use ID numbers.

If you look at one of the latest MTH catalogs - last one was published in 2020 - it has a 2-page spread as to how to connect the 2 different systems together. To me the diagram is a bit complicated so I drew up the attached diagram for my system and it works great:

I put the fuses between the ZW and the TIU.  I had lots of kids running my trains and quite a few derailments.  The fuses popped, we replaced them and no issues with the TIU.

@TMack posted:

The fuses popped, we replaced them and no issues with the TIU.

The TIU is one of 2 components I recall seeing in the O Gauge world that does have native transient voltage suppression protection.

@AdamD12 posted:

I wasn’t sure which forum to post this is, but this was my best guess.

I am new to O gauge 3-rail. For years, I collected in HO scale, but I’ve decided to switch to O due to getting older - and the vision which comes with that. I haven’t had an actual layout for over 30 years, but I expect to start building one in the next year or two.

I am not electrically-inclined, so the various operating systems are confusing to me. My goal is to build a long, wide-curve mainline-only layout and just watch the trains run. I actually work for a Class 1 railroad, so the “crew talk” and several other features of many newer locos does not interest me. However, I very much like the steam/diesel engine sounds and the horns.

Can I run the locomotives from any and all manufacturers in “traditional” operation and still get the loco sounds and horns to work? I really don’t want to invest in specialized control systems for each company.

Thanks for putting up with a newbie question!

Adam

Yes - most engines built by Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Williams, Kline, etc. will work on a "traditional" (conventional) layout, even high end Lionel Legacy and MTH Premier command control engines, because they were designed to be backwards compatible with older traditional layouts operated with a traditional transformer. Obviously, you will not be able to access the same features (many of which you say you aren't interested in anyways) by operating a high end command locomotive in a conventional environment, but you still get the extra detailing in the locomotive construction, if that interests you.

Two Lionel engines that will not work in a traditional layout via the transformer alone are the Lionchief and Lionchief Plus (+) series of engines. They are designed to require a dedicated remote. However, many of the newer models can use Bluetooth and you can download the free Lionel App to run those engines on a conventional layout w/o needing a physical remote. The newer Lionchief Plus (+) 2.0 series will work on a conventional layout as well as command control.

I would also not be so quick to dismiss the command control systems from Lionel (TMCC or Legacy) and MTH DCS. Although you may not need many of the features, such as crew talk, there are two features which I find particularly attractive. One is the rail/track sounds feature which produces realistic sounds that one might hear from a real operating train and the second is the slow speed operation and ability to crawl at a steady speed w/o the herky-jerkiness normally associated with slow speed operation on a conventional layout. It's commonly referred to as "cruise control" and that's an apt description.

I have both the Legacy and MTH DCS systems on my layout and personally prefer the Lionel Legacy system. To me, it's more intuitive; easier to use; and less prone to have issues. Programming a new engine into the system is not rocket science and easily accomplished.           

The voltage spikes being talked about aren't solely the byproduct of short circuits. Just the normal sparking from intermittent loss of contact can generate spikes. They won't kill electronics right away, it's more like the effect lifting heavy items incorrectly has on your back -- the damage is cumulative and not readily evident to you till one day your back (or a component in an electronics package) goes

TVS's (transient voltage suppressors) connected between your transformer and track filter out these spikes (which are typically so brief you'd need an oscilloscope to see them)

---PCJ