I have been trying to look closely at the new description of the stand alone Berkshires in the 2015 catalog and comparing it to what was written in the past and in this catalog about the Polar Express Berk. It looks like the stand alone for 2015 has more features built in. Are others seeing that too?
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Hmmm. Difficult to decipher Lionel's descriptions accurately without spending more time at it (I have a dentist appointment in a half hour). It looks like the separate Berks have "station sounds" (whatever that is) as an extra. But look at the prices. A whole set of the PE for $400 and the locomotive alone for $350 (both MSRP). You'd better get SOMETHING for that much! Frankly, all I want is something that runs conventionally. I've stated it MANY times, I don't want any other system than that. All it does is make it more complicated. And more complicated=more $$$$.
The sets that seem to have been cancelled (the C&O passenger and NKP freight) would have been around $400, like the PE. So, if you want the Berk, you have to get the operating system. I don't need it. I'm going to have to think twice about the Berk.
Believer in the KISS principle
Looks like the original plastic tender trucks are now diecast?
Rich
Plastic Tenders were gone when they showed the PE at the fall York.
These Berks all come with the Flyer King operating system. They all run on just transformer according to the catalog information.
Looks like the original plastic tender trucks are now diecast?
Rich
As reported here after the last York, the tender and tender trucks are die cast (as are the boiler casting and pilot and pony trucks). Held the PE version in my very own widdle hands. Although not super detailed, it looks and feels like a quality piece. With a "street price" of about $280 and the recognition of the list of operational features, there is a fair amount of engine there for the money. And, it will fit right into a Gilbert Flyer environment.
The new Berks will run conventionally or with FlyerChief. Take your choice. FlyerChief, being a high constant voltage control system, is compatible for use in a Legacy or TMCC control environment provided one uses the dedicated FlyerChief hand held to control its assigned engine (a Berk in this case). So, one engine type covers a fair number of bases in the Flyer/hi-rail world.
Bob
I have been trying to look closely at the new description of the stand alone Berkshires in the 2015 catalog and comparing it to what was written in the past and in this catalog about the Polar Express Berk. It looks like the stand alone for 2015 has more features built in. Are others seeing that too?
It seems like the electronics package may have more features. And at least for now, the separate sale Berks have number boards, NKP style pilot and maybe an extra detail or two.
Hmmm. Difficult to decipher Lionel's descriptions accurately without spending more time at it (I have a dentist appointment in a half hour). It looks like the separate Berks have "station sounds" (whatever that is) as an extra. But look at the prices. A whole set of the PE for $400 and the locomotive alone for $350 (both MSRP). You'd better get SOMETHING for that much! Frankly, all I want is something that runs conventionally. I've stated it MANY times, I don't want any other system than that. All it does is make it more complicated. And more complicated=more $$$$.
The sets that seem to have been cancelled (the C&O passenger and NKP freight) would have been around $400, like the PE. So, if you want the Berk, you have to get the operating system. I don't need it. I'm going to have to think twice about the Berk.
Believer in the KISS principle
It's possible,(but unlikely) that the Polar Express set is considered a "loss leader" to garner interest in the rest of the Flyer lineup. Plus, I don't think they'd sell much if priced beyond the MSRP $400.00 mark, given the O Gauge LionChief+ set is $429.00 MSRP.
These will all run conventionally with a flip of a switch on the locomotive, according to the publicity.
Rusty
Hmmm. Frankly, all I want is something that runs conventionally. I've stated it MANY times, I don't want any other system than that. All it does is make it more complicated. And more complicated=more $$$$.
I'm going to have to think twice about the Berk.
Believer in the KISS principle
I’m with Jerry on this. I have the Mikado and had to gut the thing to get it to run on DC. I have the Y3 with a ‘work-a-round’ to get it to run on DC – very dissatisfactory. The only reason it is not being gutted is I’m thinking about DCC. A Flyer quality Berk is mildly interesting, but the Flyer Chief is just something that would have to go.
I’m not much on proprietary systems and I don’t want to support them. It is too bad that to support Lionel in their endeavor to manufacture S gauge trains, I find myself in a Catch-22… having to encourage systems toy trains don’t need and are just extra cost or show Lionel and MTH I won’t buy their stuff, discouraging them from pursuing the scale.
FM,
Tom Stoltz
in Maine
While I'm disappointed that the NKP set is no longer cataloged, I'm pleased with what I've seen so far in pre-production pictures and info about the Berkshires. I purchased three Northerns and every one listed for over $400. Considering that the Northerns are somewhat similar in size and detail level, the lower price for the Berk seems well in line. The fact that it is packed with more features even enhances the deal. I'm looking forward to FlyerChief and can't wait to see how its sounds compared to the chirp-chirp puffing of the Northerns.
I'll be ordering one of the Berkshires for sure. I'm guessing I'll go for the NKP, but the Pere Marquette has long been a favorite of mine. What I'd really like to see at some point is a version patterned after the the original Lima superpower demonstrators with the Elesco feedwater heater hanging over the brow. This should be an easy modification for Lionel and would force my wallet open for another purchase. I think the "O" gauge version of the Berk is offered in a similar configuration, perhaps with Illinois Central decoration (are you listening, Lionel?).
I'm in.
It's possible,(but unlikely) that the Polar Express set is considered a "loss leader" to garner interest in the rest of the Flyer lineup. Plus, I don't think they'd sell much if priced beyond the MSRP $400.00 mark, given the O Gauge LionChief+ set is $429.00 MSRP.
These will all run conventionally with a flip of a switch on the locomotive, according to the publicity.
Rusty
Rusty,
The PE was supposed to be an "entry level" set. I get that. So were the NKP and C&O sets. Too bad they seem to be cancelled. All along the scuttlebutt was that after the early sets, a more detailed version of the Berk was supposed to come out. So now it seems that the separate sale ones are the more detailed versions. So be it. It's their business model. But if I have to flip a switch to go to conventional running, why have that option if I only want conventional? Why pay for something I don't want? Again, the Lionel business model.
Bottom line for me? If the Berk goes for $350 MSRP, the pre-order price should be around $280. Hey, the American Models' Pacific was around $400. I may get one just for something different to run. They DO look good, though.... Now, just how long will we be waiting for them?
BTW, I have a PE set on order "for my grandson"... Make of that what you will. ;>
It's possible,(but unlikely) that the Polar Express set is considered a "loss leader" to garner interest in the rest of the Flyer lineup. Plus, I don't think they'd sell much if priced beyond the MSRP $400.00 mark, given the O Gauge LionChief+ set is $429.00 MSRP.
These will all run conventionally with a flip of a switch on the locomotive, according to the publicity.
Rusty
Rusty,
The PE was supposed to be an "entry level" set. I get that. So were the NKP and C&O sets. Too bad they seem to be cancelled. All along the scuttlebutt was that after the early sets, a more detailed version of the Berk was supposed to come out. So now it seems that the separate sale ones are the more detailed versions. So be it. It's their business model. But if I have to flip a switch to go to conventional running, why have that option if I only want conventional? Why pay for something I don't want? Again, the Lionel business model.
Bottom line for me? If the Berk goes for $350 MSRP, the pre-order price should be around $280. Hey, the American Models' Pacific was around $400. I may get one just for something different to run. They DO look good, though.... Now, just how long will we be waiting for them?
BTW, I have a PE set on order "for my grandson"... Make of that what you will. ;>
It's getting to be the way of the model railroad world.
Whenever MTH releases the F3's, they're going to have DCS in them whether anyone wants it or not. You'll still have conventional operation integrated, but from what I've seen, things don't usually run as well conventionally for some reason.
Even in HO, more and more locomotives are coming with some form of DCC decoder in them (that will run on straight DC) and less without.
About the only company that hasn't hopped on the electronics bandwagon is American Models.
Personally, I incorporated DCC into my scale railroad some 10-12 years ago. I have some factory equipped DCC locomotives plus some I converted.
I still run my conventional DC stuff more...
Rusty
It's getting to be the way of the model railroad world.
Whenever MTH releases the F3's, they're going to have DCS in them whether anyone wants it or not. You'll still have conventional operation integrated, but from what I've seen, things don't usually run as well conventionally for some reason.
Even in HO, more and more locomotives are coming with some form of DCC decoder in them (that will run on straight DC) and less without.
About the only company that hasn't hopped on the electronics bandwagon is American Models.
Personally, I incorporated DCC into my scale railroad some 10-12 years ago. I have some factory equipped DCC locomotives plus some I converted.
I still run my conventional DC stuff more...
Rusty
Rusty,
I have a couple recent Flyonel items that run OK with conventional power, but you're right on them not running great. Give me direction control, and a bell and horn or whistle (not necessary, though).
If I were to adopt ANY kind of more complicated system, DCC would be the way to go, simply due to its more "open source" nature. But even that can get out of control. I sometimes attend a local NMRA meeting, and those guys love their DCC. But again, not all. Straight DC is still quite popular, I guess due to its simplicity.
American Models locomotives are available with AC or DC, and from what I've seen, the conversion to DCC is fairly straight forward. Even their AC units are quite simple. And they're compatible with my AC set up that favors classic Flyer. BTW, I also have the capability of running straight DC for a couple scale items I have.
I'm not entirely down on new electronics, but I wish there were a more standard one for good ol' S. That's the beauty of the Gilbert-inspired AC system.
So, what interests me in the new catalog? Possibly the C&O Berk, the NH gondola and maybe a Commemorative car or two. I already ordered the two Gilbert colored tank cars and the NH and Gilbert Waffle cars. Disappointed in the cancellation of the longer reefers, though.
My two centavos...
John, as nice as the FC+ Berks look for the Flyrailer, it would take more than reworking the drivers (if it would be even possible) to properly scalify it (unless things change between now and then: removing cast on handrails, completing partial valve gear, maybe more...)
The Berks are a point scored for the Flyer guys... I'm OK with that.
Rusty
$280 (YMMV) street price.
Bob
Here is the link to Nassau Hobbies for the $280 price.
http://www.nassauhobby.com/XC4...f-Steam-Locomotives/
The Berks are a point scored for the Flyer guys... I'm OK with that.
Rusty
Thank you.
It might helpful to recognize that the new Berk is aimed at the Flyer enthusiast and not the River Raisin crowd. One motive power product is not going to satisfy everyone. Especially, for ~$280.
Looking at the issue from another perspective, I have had TMCC for over 15 years. Simple. Robust. Personally, I prefer TMCC/Legacy over DCC for a number of reasons. TMCC is by far the easiest and cheapest path to obtaining CC in an already constructed postwar style layout. And, it has been around for 20 years. The new Berk is right in the wheel house of the many Flyer/hi-rail S gauge enthusiasts and traditionalists. Grousing about the electronics contained therein is something of a nonsequitur because (I presume) most everyone still wants the chuff, whistle, bell, and smoke.
Many of us would never dream of posting a complaint about AM for not having TMCC. Some here need to lighten up a bit.
Bob
Many of us would never dream of posting a complaint about AM for not having TMCC. Some here need to lighten up a bit.
Bob
I agree Bob. American Models new T&Ps have nothing inside for sound and are $249. These Berks have sound and an operating system for $279 so they are a great deal.
Some people on this forum can never find anything Lionel does as good. This is especially true of the River Rasin group. While I wish Lionel would develop and deliver more American Flyer I am just glad they keep developing and delivering what they have been.
The Berks are a point scored for the Flyer guys... I'm OK with that.
Rusty
Thank you.
It might helpful to recognize that the new Berk is aimed at the Flyer enthusiast and not the River Raisin crowd. One motive power product is not going to satisfy everyone. Especially, for ~$280.
Looking at the issue from another perspective, I have had TMCC for over 15 years. Simple. Robust. Personally, I prefer TMCC/Legacy over DCC for a number of reasons. TMCC is by far the easiest and cheapest path to obtaining CC in an already constructed postwar style layout. And, it has been around for 20 years. The new Berk is right in the wheel house of the many Flyer/hi-rail S gauge enthusiasts and traditionalists. Grousing about the electronics contained therein is something of a nonsequitur because (I presume) most everyone still wants the chuff, whistle, bell, and smoke.
Many of us would never dream of posting a complaint about AM for not having TMCC. Some here need to lighten up a bit.
Bob
Bob,
Thank you for sticking up for Lionel and their operating system. I have been into Flyer since 1948. There are many reasons why I like Flyer and those reasons brought me back to flyer every time I strayed. There was only two things I long desired over the years and they were larger radius curves and an operating system that i could operate by a walk around remote for AC current. Lionel had completed my wish list with TMCC and Legacy Systems. They even made an attempt to more scale appearance and prototypical operation and I applaud their efforts. Even the NEW trucks that they made to update the antiquated Gilbert sindred iron freight car trucks were a good start to a good update to scale but many didn't like them because they wouldn't stop derailing on their layout.
I have been requesting a Berkshire Scale Loco for years and finally Lionel has produced one that is cast on Handrails but looks scale and operated on AC current plus has a hand held remote to operate it compatible with TMCC and Legacy. Will all my wishes come true? Who knows maybe but I won't hold my breath.
Thank you Lionel and Bob. Happy Railroading
Don
> Some people on this forum can never find anything Lionel does as good.
Interesting assertion. Please post a couple of messages that demonstrate this conclusion is correct. Call me curious. Thanks.....Ed L.
I'm pleased with the new Berkshires and will be ordering one.
Since the new engine reminds me of the Postwar 736, I'm hoping
they can eventually produce both the 746 and 773 versions for A/F!
Thanks, Phil 
Many of us would never dream of posting a complaint about AM for not having TMCC. Some here need to lighten up a bit.
Bob
I agree Bob. American Models new T&Ps have nothing inside for sound and are $249. These Berks have sound and an operating system for $279 so they are a great deal.
<snip>
By the way, I think that the new AM T&P GPs are gorgeous and I may spring for one or two. But, I don't expect to run them with TMCC (as I have it set up). Fair is fair.
Most of the S gauge layouts I see are still conventional ... the true universal system. Their owner/operators have not invested ($ or emotionally) in any particular CC system. The Berk with FlyerChief will afford many of these hobbyists (Flyer guys, mainly) with a very painless low cost way of trying a remote control. It may prove something of a revelation for them.
Have fun.
Bob
Actually, a closer-to-fair-but-not-quite comparison would be the AM Northern vs. the FlyerChief+ Berkshire.
The "full sound" Flyer-compatible AM Northern MSRP's at $549.95 vs. the FlyerChief+ Berkshire at $349.95.
Both have their trade-offs as far as fidelity to scale, and the AM Northern is conventional only, but I'll wager the FlyerChief+ Berkshire will sound worlds better, even under conventional control.
Now, I've got two AM scale-version Northerns and still think they're a pretty good value for the buck. A River Raisin-type version would easily be $2K or higher and it wouldn't handle my curves...
Rusty
So, to give a new S gauger a starter set or starter engine with Command Control why didn't they put TMCC in them and make a CHEAPER REMOTE?
Because, Lionel doesn't have, or doesn't desire to develop a "budget" TMCC system to keep costs down.
The O Gaugers have already beat this subject to death.
Rusty
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