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In my humble opinion, I think that the Norfolk & Western's Roanoke Shops built the best steam locomotives in the United States regarding state of the art technology, efficiency and certainly appearances. I also think that Lima was at the top too, and a close second to Roanoke. The other manufacturers seem to have been stuck in the USRA era of World War 1.

 

For brute power, the N&W's Class A and Class Y were the crÈme de la crÈme of frieght engines, and the Class K Streamlined plus the Class J engines were gorgeous.

 

I also agree that the prettiest steam engines built in the USA were the NYC Hudson J1 and Dreyfus J3.

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So, what about Juniata Shops?  I understand that it's a matter of opinion, but it's kind of sweeping to say everyone else was stuck in the USRA of World War I when you had lots of other shops developing things all the time.

 

Roanoke did have some gorgeous locomotives, but I could put Juniata and Lima at the very least above them in terms of variety and innovation.

The Reading Locomotive Shops broke the mold, too. They built the world's largest 2-10-2's (class K1) from 11 N-1 2-8-8-2 Malleys in 1927. Then they rebuilt 30 masssive 2-8-0's (class I10sa) as 4-8-4's (class T-1) in 1945-47. Their final achievements were the last 4-6-2's built in America (class G3) in 1948.

 

The Reading was the only Eastern railroad to bring back steam for 51 Iron Horse Rambles (1959-1964).

 

A Burlington fan will probably praise the home-built boisterous O-5b 4-8-4's, the most famous being the 5632.

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N&W streamlined their servicing facilities and advanced the development of automatic lubricators on their newer steam power. It certainly would have been interesting if they could have made steam power economically competitive to continue in service. Part of the problem was the dwindling availability of steam locomotive parts from various industry suppliers. As it was, they were the last great holdout of mainline steam power.

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by david1:

Alco, hands down and Roanoke a close second, all others can get in line behind those two

Sorry, Lima, Roanoke, THEN Alco!

Sorry Hotwater you have the first and last in the wrong positions. But I can see why you put Lima first. It was a great steam locomotive builder.

Originally Posted by david1:
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by david1:

Alco, hands down and Roanoke a close second, all others can get in line behind those two

Sorry, Lima, Roanoke, THEN Alco!

Sorry Hotwater you have the first and last in the wrong positions. But I can see why you put Lima first. It was a great steam locomotive builder.

Assuming that you have actual HANDS ON experience with ALL the steam locomotive builders, just what makes you think that Alco is THAT superior to Lima and N&W's East End Shops? For example, the boilermakers at the PRR Altoona Shops could actually tell the difference in workmanship between the  boilers that PRR subcontracted to Lima and Baldwin.

 

Having to deal with the cab layout designs of Lima products, N&W products, Alco products, and lastly Baldwin products, I speak from experience. What are your credentials? 

Originally Posted by Ace:

N&W streamlined their servicing facilities and advanced the development of automatic lubricators on their newer steam power. It certainly would have been interesting if they could have made steam power economically competitive to continue in service. Part of the problem was the dwindling availability of steam locomotive parts from various industry suppliers. As it was, they were the last great holdout of mainline steam power.


Very true.  Getting 15,000 miles a month out of the J's is fact and a testament to the design and technology that was put in to them.  The could fully service and turn a J right around in 1 hr...that is fast in anyones book.  Now from just looking at photos of backheads Lima was a cadillac, and Alco was your fathers Oldsmobile.  And the J's...well.....

 

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Last edited by N&W Class J
Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:

Uh-oh...getting out the popcorn again.  

Hey give me some buddy! Extra butter! 

 

Never in my life have I seen an argument over stupid locomotive companies. Who cares about credentials its someone's opinion and they are entitled to it. 

 

In MY OPINION, all of them should be number one because they put the iron horses on the rails and developed a past history in America that will not be forgotten soon. All of the hard laboring workers in all of those companies deserve A LOT of credit.  

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by PennsyPride94: 

Never in my life have I seen an argument over stupid locomotive companies. Who cares about credentials its someone's opinion and they are entitled to it. 

Luckily, you have had a very short life so far, and have not had to put up with these types of comparisons, over the last 55 years, or so.

Well I don't blame you for getting mad Hotwater. With your background I would get mad at people too who give out false information but isn't that expected with railfans? 

Originally Posted by PennsyPride94:
Never in my life have I seen an argument over stupid locomotive companies. Who cares about credentials its someone's opinion and they are entitled to it. 

 

In MY OPINION, all of them should be number one because they put the iron horses on the rails and developed a past history in America that will not be forgotten soon. All of the hard laboring workers in all of those companies deserve A LOT of credit.  


No different then any other arguement I have seen take place here.  Lionel, no MTH, No 3rd Rail or 3 rail vs. 2 rail....ect.  They are all silly.  I fail to see why anger needs to enter into any of it. Hotwater gave his opinion and with his knowledge and experience you won't hear me argue with him.  I think if we could bring the men that ran these things day in and day out back in the day to a round table they would all have their favorites as well and argue strongly for them.  And what "false" information has been given out?  All I have read are opinions.

Last edited by N&W Class J
Originally Posted by Bobby Ogage:

... built the best steam locomotives in the United States regarding state of the art technology, efficiency and certainly appearances. ... prettiest steam engines built in the USA ...

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
... Having to deal with the cab layout designs of Lima products, N&W products, Alco products, and lastly Baldwin products, I speak from experience. What are your credentials? 

Just a quibble with your logic. You certainly have a valid opinion based on your experience operating steam locomotives and it gives you some unique and valuable knowledge compared to most people, but that doesn't necessarily translate into knowledge about the design factors mentioned by the original poster such as state of the art technology and appearance. That might best be addressed by a locomotive historian or an industrial engineer.

 

For example, a pilot of an airplane could comment on the ease of operation of the different airplanes he or she has flown, but that doesn't necessarily qualify them to comment on the historical significance of the technology in the plane, or the aesthetics of the design.

 

The same goes for automobiles. Using your logic, anyone who has ever driven a car is qualified to comment on the historical relevance of the technology in the car, and the quality of the external appearance.

Originally Posted by Bobby Ogage:

 

 

Steam engines are the most amazing earthly machines I have ever seen.

No argument there. 

 

Especially when you consider they were designed and built not with the aid of computers and computer assisted machinery, but with the brains of the design engineers, talent of the draftsmen and the sweat and skill of the shop floor worker.  It doesn't matter who built them.

 

And, consider this: a steam locomotive is essentially held together by pins, bolts and friction and yet somehow managed to get down the tracks without flying apart!

 

Rusty

Originally Posted by CWEX:
 

No different then any other arguement I have seen take place here.  Lionel, no MTH, No 3rd Rail or 3 rail vs. 2 rail....ect.  They are all silly.  

I certainly can agree with that!  Seems like some people like to "invent" competitive comparisons--all of which ultimately turn out to be meaningless because such comparisons are inherently meaningless--just for the sake of fermenting turmoil.

 

An individual's personal opinions, and the views formed from that experience, are just that:  A personal view with credibility only in the mind of the individual involved.  As with anything else any time the topic title includes the word "best," there is no winner.

Hotwater,

 

i did not post my opinion to be insulted. As I have stated it is my opinion after much reading. No, I have never ran a steam engine and in reality does that really matter? Next time you decide to jump in a discussion please have some respect for other people's opinions. 

 

You and many others think that Lima was the best and I respect that but in my opinion Alco was number 1. Does it make me right? No, but it is my opinion so please respect it. 

Absolutely Allan, we all definetly have our "fan" favorite.  The older I get the more I see that it isn't so much a matter of right and wrong but more a matter of.... different.  I think sometimes everyones passion for a given road or locomotive just gets the better of them and in our zeal to impress that upon others we get snippy for lack of a better term....I know I have been guilty of that a time or 2 and I am trying to get better... 

 

Ace, that is so true.  I never lived during the age of steam, I consider myself extremely lucky to be able to experience it today thanks to the hard work of all who make up these wonderful organizations. 

Originally Posted by david1:

Hotwater,

 

i did not post my opinion to be insulted. As I have stated it is my opinion after much reading. No, I have never ran a steam engine and in reality does that really matter? Next time you decide to jump in a discussion please have some respect for other people's opinions. 

 

You and many others think that Lima was the best and I respect that but in my opinion Alco was number 1. Does it make me right? No, but it is my opinion so please respect it. 

Well actually, in your original posts, you did NOT state that it was your OPINION! Since my post of my ranking, Lima, N&W, and Alco was based on working in the steam locomotive restoration AND operating business, I was more dealing with facts, based on workmanship of those three builders. 

There are many different types of people, that possess varying levels of competence, knowledge..., who work or have worked, in a particular field. Some, with many years of experience under their belts, are secure, confident and content, re: their respective fields. These types are often very well respected.

 

There are also others, who have put in time, that wouldn't be regarded in the same manner, held in high esteem, for a number of reasons.

 

 

Rick

  Well, there is being "Book Smart" ie: mechanical engineers etc and then having to work and make these Beast perform. Remember "Everything works on paper". Look at the PRR T1's, they were "Designed" to be excellent performers, but if they are a PITA  for maintenance to work on and/or you need a skilled crew that understands how to run it then it does not matter. What matters is how the crew operates to get maximum performance out of them.  Back in Steam days, each class and each locomotive within that class had different individual operating characteristic's and it was up to the men in the cab to do their job.

   I will side with the Guy's in the cab that had to make the darn Thing work right, over what Designers and others say.

  Facts and design details are interesting to me, but do not necessarily mean a successful design.  Some Engineers had said about the Big Boy's that you "just have to put a little hot water in them"(no pun intended!) and they'll pull right through the mountain!

  Not to slight Hot Water in anyway, but if there were others here with similar experience, you would probably find some differences in opinions and operating technique.

  This is the human touch that we love about the Steam Locomotive, unlike the Diesel, where you could put the Road Foremans Secretary at the throttle and get the train going.  Al

From Wikipedia:

 

Norfolk & Western 2156 is the sole survivor of the railroad's Y5, Y6, Y6a, and Y6b classes.

 

These locomotives were among the hardest-pulling steam locomotives ever built. They were originally rated for a tractive effort of 152,206 pounds-force (677.0 kN), and improvements in the 1950s resulted in most of these locomotives (including N&W 2156) having their tractive effort increased to a measured 166,000 pounds-force (738.4 kN), which necessitated adding about 28,000 pounds (12.7 t) of lead to the front engine frame, to improve traction.

 

By comparison, the famous Union Pacific Big Boy locomotives developed only 135,375 pounds-force (602.2 kN) of tractive effort.)

 

The pulling power of N&W Y Class is all the more remarkable insofar as the only successful steam locomotives that developed somewhat more tractive effort, the Virginian AE class 2-10-10-2s, pulled trains at about 8 mph (13 km/h), while the N&W Y6’s regularly pulled trains 50 mph (80 km/h), and some anecdotal evidence exists that they pulled trains successfully up to 63 mph (101 km/h).

 

N&W 2156 is also one of the Y6a's that received a new firebox with an extended combustion chamber of the type used on the Y6b class, which increased drawbar horsepower from 4400 hp (3.3 MW) at 20 mph (32 km/h) to 5600 hp (4.2 MW) at 25 mph (40 km/h).

Originally Posted by Bobby Ogage:

From Wikipedia:

 

Norfolk & Western 2156 is the sole survivor of the railroad's Y5, Y6, Y6a, and Y6b classes.

 

These locomotives were among the hardest-pulling steam locomotives ever built. They were originally rated for a tractive effort of 152,206 pounds-force (677.0 kN), and improvements in the 1950s resulted in most of these locomotives (including N&W 2156) having their tractive effort increased to a measured 166,000 pounds-force (738.4 kN), which necessitated adding about 28,000 pounds (12.7 t) of lead to the front engine frame, to improve traction.

 

By comparison, the famous Union Pacific Big Boy locomotives developed only 135,375 pounds-force (602.2 kN) of tractive effort.)

 

The pulling power of N&W Y Class is all the more remarkable insofar as the only successful steam locomotives that developed somewhat more tractive effort, the Virginian AE class 2-10-10-2s, pulled trains at about 8 mph (13 km/h), while the N&W Y6’s regularly pulled trains 50 mph (80 km/h), and some anecdotal evidence exists that they pulled trains successfully up to 63 mph (101 km/h).

 

N&W 2156 is also one of the Y6a's that received a new firebox with an extended combustion chamber of the type used on the Y6b class, which increased drawbar horsepower from 4400 hp (3.3 MW) at 20 mph (32 km/h) to 5600 hp (4.2 MW) at 25 mph (40 km/h).

We've been down this track before with different locomotives.

 

The N&W Y's were developed for the N&W profile and operating conditions.

 

The UP 4000's were developed for the UP's profile and operating conditions.

 

Both performed admirably for the conditions they were developed for.

 

Rusty

Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:

We've been down this track before with different locomotives.

 

The N&W Y's were developed for the N&W profile and operating conditions.

 

The UP 4000's were developed for the UP's profile and operating conditions.

 

Both performed admirably for the conditions they were developed for.

 

Rusty

Not to mention the differing fuels available. 

Wow!  We sure do have a lot of N&W fans here.

 

I grew up in Scott Depot, West Virginia, on Scary Creek Road, a short bike ride from the C&O main and the Scary Creek grade crossing.

I could lay in my bed in the evenings and listen to C&O diesels grind up grade all night.

I am just 50 years old and missed the steam era on the C&O, but knew a couple of folks that were C&O steam employees.

My opinion on this topic of the best are the Van Sweringen brothers influenced; Lima designed and Lima built C&O steam motive power.
The Kanawha 2-8-4, Greenbrier 4-8-4, Texas 2-10-4 (which the PRR choose over the N&W design) and of course the big dog of them all, Allegheny 2-6-6-6 are the best in my opinion.
While the N&W and others had some excellent motive power, the Chesapeake & Ohio had some awesome steam motive power.


I was just born 30 years too late to see the 160 car coal drags run past my home.
But as the new to me term I learned from Mr. Richard "I Hate Chopped Liver" Melvin, I need to own up to being a C&O "FOAMER".
<I am just messing with ya Rich!>

Well, here's the difference, guys.

 

You're forgetting that the three commercial locomotive builders were in business to MAKE MONEY designing, building and SELLING steam locomotives.  They had a couple or three things to sell - engineering, workmanship and quick delivery dates.

 

In the 1920s, these builders (and if you've forgotten, they're Alco, Baldwin and Lima, in alphabetical order) were trying to develop SALES TOOLS that would keep them going.  They were not, as some of you seem to believe, kindly, benevolent souls intent only on purveying to the customer the most profitable or efficient machines possible; they were trying to SELL LOCOMOTIVES, hopefully at a profit.

 

In this era, Baldwin did little innovating, relying on high production capability and the export market.  Alco thought that the three-cylinder path was the way to go, obtaining the US license to use the British Gresley valve gear to operate the middle cylinder, and effectively forcing Baldwin to use another method for its few three-cylinder locomotives.

 

Lima went with the big firebox/big boiler concept, and called it "SuperPower".

 

A large part of the success of superpower over the three-cylinder setup was the fact that it represented the smallest deviation from traditional locomotive engineering, promising the least increase in maintenance costs.

 

It must be taken into account that the builders were going to insert their own ideas between the needs of the customer and the finished product.  After all, that's what they employed high-powered engineering departments for.  And they sometimes, ten years later, helped EMD's Dick Dilworth sell his FT diesels.

 

For instance, Alco's Alfred W. Bruce in 1927 recommended the 69" driving wheel for "general freight work".  There was a good reason for this; the 63" driver common then did not have enough room to adequately counterbalance the heavy rods necessary to transmit the power of the new big engines (disc drivers and lightweight rods were in the future).  The higher driver helped the problem in two ways - it had more room for counterbalance weight, and it reduced the RPM necessary to run at a satisfactory speed.  But many of the locomotives built to this standard found themselves in heavy service on grades, and made them easy meat for a diesel-electric.  They had horsepower to burn at high speeds, but were bought by many railroads which couldn't use all that speed, but needed more slow speed power.

 

Baldwin seemed to have more counterbalance problems than the other builders; even  an 80"-drivered Northern like the ACL's R-1 (now THERE's a handsome locomotive for you) had those troubles.

 

And all the builders discarded the Mallet compound in favor of the faster simple articulated; these saved the builders in two ways - they were usually bigger and heavier and therefore more profitable to build than comparable Mallets, and the builders didn't have to go to the trouble of finding out what made the Mallet slow, and doing something about it.  There was a reason why N&W's Y-6 lasted the longest; they were fast enough for N&W's conditions, had the economy of compounding, and had a boiler the size of a big 4-8-4 - they wouldn't have been as profitable for a builder wanting to sell simple 2-8-8-4s and 4-8-8-4s.

 

There were two railroads that built a significant proportion of their own power; the Pennsy in its Juniata Shops, and N&W at Roanoke.

 

Pennsy built a lot of locomotives to basic 1910s design standards; they had about 1500 K4 Pacifics, L1 Mikados and I1 Decapods.  They ignored everybody else's progress until producing their best effort, the M1 4-8-2 in the 1920s.  Even this, the best of their homegrown designs, was designed to be hand fired; it took some work on the test plant at Altoona to convince them that only a stoker would get the best out of PRR's best design.  But when the World War II crunch came, Pennsy didn't have a modern design and had to get one from somewhere else.

 

N&W was a special case.  First of all, its top managers over the years had at least some operating experience; in other words, they knew what made the wheels go around.  So N&W wanted "purpose-driven" locomotive designs.  Post WWI saw it concentrating on USRA's heavy Mountains for passenger service and the USRA 2-8-8-2 Mallet for freight.  After its regrettable misstep in 1926 with the 63"-drivered K-3 4-8-2, it came up with the Class A 2-6-6-4 in 1936.  N&W's president at the time was a fellow named A. C. Needles who, from all reports, was as prickly as his name - but he knew what made the wheels go around.

 

N&W was identifying the problems that kept the compound 2-8-8-2 from being faster, and was doing something about them; this resulted in the Y-6 referred to above.

 

N&W's 4-8-4 was an extension of all its thinking up to that time.

 

N&W did its own mechanical thinking.  It knew what was going on elsewhere in the locomotive industry, and selected those features which would further its own goals - maximum gross ton miles per train hour PER DOLLAR.  It didn't have a commercial builder inserting non-desirable ideas into its designs, or trying to make money on a low-bid contract.  And, it didn't care what others did.

 

If N&W's engineers had taken a design for a locomotive like Lima's 2-6-6-6 and laid it on Needles' desk, I'm convinced that he'd have kicked their a**es back to the Motive Power Building and told them to start over - a locomotive weighing that much that was no more powerful at low speeds than the class Y3 USRA 2-8-8-2 . . .

 

Well, of course all this long-winded discourse is just my opinion, but . . .

 

EdKing

 

 

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